Why do you think Abstract Art is not popular here?


#101

Voila ! now I know why Abstract Art is not popular here.

All of our discussions are irrelevant to me now, since I’ve asked the wrong question. Abstract Art is not unpopular, it’s just not permitted in these forums, with the exception of the few that slip through. Ask me why !! I have submitted this morning some 3D artwork for the forum and it got rejected, yes it was abstraction, duh! I should have known that before I embarass myself.
For those who are interested, follow the links:
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#102

ashakarc, I had the same issue (if slightly different). I have had a few pieces rejected on Finished 2D forum as well. At first I thought it was because they were done with traditional media (paint on canvas) but I have seen other traditional works accepted, and Lunatique himself said that traditional works are allowed. I can only assume that the mods here don’t like abstract works.

Interesting though, I just posted a work in the WIP 2D forum and a couple people have appreciated it. Here is a link for anyone interested.

The censorship on here irritates me. To me, the community itself should decide whether they like the abstracts. They should at least be posted! How can anyone make up their mind if they never see them!

Really nice work btw ashakarc! I definitely think it is worthy of sitting alongside naked chicks and orcs :wink:


#103

No we didn’t.

If I were to take a guess as to why abstracted works are filtered out it is because such decorative, emotional and hyper-personal types of art are not conducive to discussions and especially critiques.

Wanna see a BB go down quick? Try starting one that caters to abstract art and see how long it lasts. I’d give it a year after it reached 1,000 members. Art work that is somewhat visually un-organized and at first un-civil requires a tremendous amount of control for it to work. Either that or it is put off to the public’s side, in obscure places where it functions more like decoration rather than a gathering-talk-about piece. IMHO


#104

Thanks Shaidar for consoling me. In a way, Mods are right, since Abstract is a work in progress, because that is what it is, although it is finished over by the artist her/himself yet it carries on with the viewers as an open ended work. But, they are also wrong if they apply their own preferences in their judgement. Being in a position where you have the authority to say yes or no requires that you have to be objective in applying your knowledge and expertise to your judgement. Anything less than that will be rendered “unfair”…basic rule

Anyway, I’m glad that this thread has evolved with a lot of meat to chew. Thanks all :beer:


#105

I’m not sure what “control” you mean, quality? If that’s the case, then with these prejudices, it should be very easy to control.


#106

Well. A community BB (and I assume many more) already exists EXACTLY like that. Check out Wetcanvas Abstract/Contemporary Forum. If you take a quick look through that you can indeed see that abstract works can generate very lively, structured, and critiquing discussions. There is no reason why it can’t be like that on here. At least IMHO.

If people think that abstract works can’t be critiqued and discussed, then they need to do a little bit more research into the driving factors behind abstract work.


#107

I’m talking more about controlling the environment in which the abstract art will be displayed. One of the reasons that art galleries were promoted so heavily by critics, curators and collectors in the early 1900s was to remove the modern/abstract art from the public (whom they thought were not educated enough to appreciate that type of work… and to a degree they were right), thus severe control.

I figure that a BB dedicated to abstract art would require lots of heavy-handed moderation to keeps things productive, progressive and intuitive. That would take a lot of work and don’t think many people would be up to the task (having been a moderator on a couple of different bulletin boards I myself would run from such a task).


#108

And there we go, a BB for abstract art. Its a whole different atmosphere over there…


#109

I don’t see why it would need too much moderation…

Do you really think people will just start attacking the abstract art? From my experience most people will just ignore a piece and not post if they don’t like it.

You have to remember that only a small percentage of abstract work is in a “primitive” style. These seem to be the pieces that people have the most problems with.

Personally I can’t see too much of an issue. But has it actually been tried here on CGtalk? I mean, you can’t make a judgement unless you have actually tried. If abstract works have actually been allowed in the past and there was too much uproar, so be it, the community has spoken. But otherwise, why not give it a shot?


#110

Is this a historical fact? Aren’t Abstract Art and Modern Art associated with early 1900 or not? On the other hand, the public who appreciated Modern Art in general were very receptive in the early 20th century for many reasons. It was the age of revolutions at all fronts, cultural, industrial, political, ideological, scientific, military, economical, and you name it. I wish I have lived that age, were civilization got a massive reboot on a new operating system that changed human history forever. In todays world, abstraction is becoming redundant, the age of slave morality where individuality diminished to a minute role within a larger group. It’s the age of the masses and redundancy of the role of the individual.


#111

Yes. At least that’s what I learned in college :argh:

That is correct. Thats when it all began.

The acceptance of modern and abstract art existed mainly among the affluent, educated upper-class. Elsewhere it drew harsh criticism. There was a big movement to remove the modern art from the public because critics, curators, collectors and creators saw redeeming qualities in such art and didn’t want it to die. Art museums were the perfect place for such art to thrive. It was still accessible to the public but to a large degree removed and protected from the popular opinions of the masses.

George L.K. Morris (and the group he ran with) played a huge part in helping establish and promote modern/abstract art. He wrote a great deal about it and took to task most if not all of the critics against it. Morris was wealthy, educated and very well versed. He knew what he was talking about and was fairly believable… I mean even if you don’t like abstract art just reading his words about it is quite interesting and convincing.

Anyways… not to “[get] off the point” :stuck_out_tongue:


#112

Yes there is a very good reason abstract art should be filtered out. There are standards on this site, and once you open those doors, you will have another deviantart… where anything is allowed. If you’re looking for freedom, go outside and prance around like a fairy.


#113

Thanks GOT!, interesting background information, but it seems to me that you are referring to the mid 20th century period. The Bauhaus by itself took abstract arts into a whole new level by incorporating it into architecture, music, graphic design, etc… Constructivists on the other hand used a lot of abstraction but with a social agenda. I guess they realized the importance of the masses as to what they would be able to receive and understand. It’s my favourite movement of all 20th century movements.

To be more specific why I sometimes use abstraction, is because it is a second nature to any serious architect. For me, art is the greatest complement to architecture after philosophy, and I find abstraction as a mean to reach bigger ideas that would be constructed into real projects. I don’t have the aptitude towards empty abstract arts, but I also don’t find orcs and fairies to be inspiring in anyway.

Everything is for the best, in this best of most possible worlds (Voltaire)


#114

Ashakarc. Thank you for those links to your work, I enjoyed looking at them very much. And I am mystified as to why your work was rejected. This forum is called CG talk after all. Not “Sci-Fi/Fantasy illustration Done on computers talk”. And does support a fairly broad spectrum of art practice elsewhere.

Technically and aesthetically, abstract work can be judged and commented on in the same way as any other art work. And frankly, a lot more artists would become interested in the medium, if there were more exposure for works such as yours. Believe it or not, many people are put off by the associations that Cg has with fantasy illustration. Just as others are put off by abstract art.

GOT. What you were saying, re: control of abstract art is an interesting viewpoint. But I don’t think it is, entirely accurate.

The movements that led to the development of abstract art. For example: ‘The Nabis’ in France, led by Paul Gaugin, Maurice Denis and Paul Seruser. Or ‘The Blue Rider’ founded by Wassily Kandinsky in Munich. Were very much, Artist led. With the groups themselves, taking responsibility for the dissemination of their ideas, and laying down the intellectual framework for them to develop. See, Maurice Denis definition of painting: “a flat surface covered with colours assembled in a certain order” or Kandinsky’s essay: “Point and Line to Plane”. Both circa 1920’s.

Once these ideas and works were out in the open. The development of Abstract Art was pretty much unstoppable. It would be a bit like keeping the invention of the wheel quiet. Once you see it there is no going back. And the aesthetic of these works very quickly found their way into the mainstream of everyday design. Thus entering the public consciousness through, Advertising, Architecture Fashion etc.

Galleries and curators of the time, to an extent even today. Were very much, conservative bastions. Jealously guarding against what was perceived as a threat to traditional artistic, and in some cases moral values. Consider some of the artists forced to take part in the "Salon des Refuses’ exhibitions as a result of being rejected by the ‘salon de Paris’ sponsored by the Beaux-Arts Academy. The Salon des Refuses was something of a joke, set up in the 1860’s to show the work rejected by the salon. You know, for a good laugh. But some very important works such as: Édouard Manet’s “Le déjeuner sur l’herbe” and James McNeill Whistler’s “The White Girl”, among many others by Monet, Pissarro and Cezanne were also rejected by the Paris Salon.

Western art is not the only culture to have developed abstract art forms. Consider the Aboriginal Art of Australia. Where the culture has been successfully preserved for thousands of years, by the passing on of conventions preserved in abstract designs. Or notably the Islamic Culture. Where the depiction of God’s creation is forbidden. Hence the development of Abstract art forms involving, the most complex geometric knot-work and tracery. It’s not difficult to see a common conclusion here. The Aborigines recognise instinctively, that there is more to the living world than appears on the surface. In Islamic art, there is a tacit understanding that Man cannot compete with the perfection of God’s creation. For us in the West, it is the realisation, that simple mimicry is a wholly inadequate means of understanding reality. An intellectual cul de sac.

CG is in its infancy. But is catching up, and will catch up. A forum like this one, that allows the free exchange of ideas and discussion. Is a perfect spring board. Surely there is room at CG talk for a non figurative CG forum.

Btw didn’t Alias, the makers of Maya, use a completely abstract image recently, in their Advertising?


#115

Thanks PSR, I’m glad you liked them. Since you have seen them, let me tell you what they are. They represent an architectural concept at the very first stages of design, where lines and surfaces are flowing freely trying to determine the spatial configuration of that form. They are basically captured from what goes into my mind the moment I start that process. The later stages will involve trimming and integration of the many resultant relationships into a functional structure. I’ve done many similar exercises with my students when we start a design project. Here is an example of the work of one of my students who developed a whole theory of using children scribbles that describe basic things in their cognition and at different stages, using Lacan’s psychological studies on children’s artwork, she managed to put them to work by developing a structure that serves as a playground for children. See image below :slight_smile:


#116

maybe a little offtopic but I just can’t stay silent

to ashakarc:
“Feeling is a mind activity that calls the brain home”

not quite true
the mind activity is what let’s you memorize the moments you felt something

feelings are a function of a whole body
they don’t happen in your brain

it’s a well know thing from the area of psychology

bibliography on request :slight_smile:


#117

I’m still trying to understand how abstract art can be critiqued

when I ask my son to draw a circle and he just scribbles is he making better abstract art than I could?

wouldn’t it be nice if there were an Occam’s Razor for the art world?

I just would like a better grasp on what the abstract artist is trying to do…

my guess is this:

there is this part of my art that I just don’t really understand, everything I draw has to be freakish or odd in some way

I’ve been able to understand it under the art vs illustration argument I’ve heard about

my understanding is that some things are put in there for emotional reasons… sometimes I think it would be interesting if the bottom half of the woman was a fish and that her fingers weren’t as realistic as I could make them… these little notions please me, but they sometimes befuddle my audience…

it’s strange because when I see these things in other people’s art I really appreciate them but I don’t know why and I can’t explain them… they aren’t technical, didn’t necessarily require any more/less skill… I don’t really know what some of them symbolise… they are just there and they make me happy to see…

is this something similar to what the abstract movement is trying to convey? if so then how can it be judged? the only thing people can do is relate or not… I think sometimes people just come up with some BS to describe why they don’t relate, but they don’t really know themselves…

it’s sometimes a non-verbal form of communication

that being said, I can understand the feelings people get seeing some abstract art… I just spent 3 hours trying to get this picture to work and made zero money + zero fame doing it…

this other guy painted red scribbles on a paper and he is a genius with a paycheck… I’m not one to say his art sucks because that’s his thing, but damn…

it kinda makes you mad how some people have to actually work hard at McDonalds where as some people just draw scribbles… I don’t think that has anything to do with intelligence… some elitist people would have you believe that working people are stupid and insensitive…

aside from that, most people that put things on paper (your computer monitor) are judged on skill… but I guess some artists got sick of being seen as just cool picture drawers with skill (illustrators) and started just doing whatever they wanted to because of how they feel (artists)… this can be respected by your average employee…

put simple, I think if you take either of these schools of thought too far you are seriously limiting the amount of people that will appreciate what you are doing…

and I’m still trying to figure out how I might be able to help the guy with the scribbles on his page, what advice can I give him? and what comments can I make except for “cool” or “kinda looks like spaghetti (a.k.a. God - sorry couldn’t resist)”?

  • there it is… hope it made some sense… hope I don’t sound stupid…

btw, I think it’s so bad ass that I get to write in the same thread as Stahlberg… I didn’t think 3D women could be sexy until I found his site a few years ago… props to you Mr S, if you are still with this thread…


#118

ashakarc, Thank you for the background. That’s really very interesting, I always think of architectural concepts, as being rather dry and precise images. But thinking about it, buildings like the Guggenheim in Bilbao, or Selfridges in Birmingham, are so far removed from the normal notion of a building, and so abstract in their form. I’m suddenly very curious to know how these architects approached their designs.

Architecture has really embraced the fact, that with modern materials, you can make any shape you can think of. Not just a roof and four walls, must be where the phrase; ‘thinking outside the box’ comes from. Also the public seem to have been very accepting of abstract forms in architecture. Possibly because, unlike painting or sculpture, buildings provide a recognisable function in addition to their aesthetic.

hcross, I found your post very thoughtful, with some interesting questions.

When you buy flowers and put them in a vase, or fruit in a bowl. Do you just plonk them in and forget it. Or do you carefully place the items so that they seem to sit well together,
and somehow feel harmonious. You’re not measuring it, or judging it against someone else’s bowl of fruit, your using some internal sense of judgement, and anyone else, would be able to see that those things were not just random arrangements. Well I think it’s that internal sense that is largely brought to bear when looking at abstract work.

When your son scribbles on paper. Is he just scribbling? or is he exploring that magical space we call paper? is he, in the words of Paul Klee, “taking a line for a walk”? Further more, is the quality of line, so searching, and so engaging, that you are drawn in and can’t help being fascinated by the movement through the page?

In many ways, Abstract Art is, Occam’s Razor applied to art. See Maurice Denis’ definition of painting in my previous post. It requires looking at things for what they are, rather than what they signify.

Look, I know someone. Who, if you show him a tiny fragment of a motor bike photo, chances are, he’ll be able to tell you what make, model and everything else about it. You guessed it, he’s interested in motorbikes. It’s not compulsory to like, or be interested in anything. But abstract art is no different from any other art, in that you have to have an interest, and have to be prepared to learn a lot. A good place to start. Is to look at the really good stuff, get some of the historical context and try to see where it’s impact can be felt in a wider social context.

You lose me a bit here. Very few, artists working in the fine arts, can survive just from their artwork. And the majority have to do other work, the full gamut from teaching to labouring, to support their own art practice. It does annoy me a bit that, footballers here in the UK can earn up to, and in excess of £50 000 pounds a week to play a game, while others work long hours at supermarket checkouts, and are expected work during public holidays for peanuts. Life is unfair.

I agree. It was his figure, on the cover of Peter Ratners book, about human modeling. That got me really fired up about 3d. I haven’t seen a better figure than that in 3d, esp the hair.


#119

That’s very true. In fact, one of the founding principles of Modern Architecture states that the function of the building has to be declared recognizable from the outside. It’s not that I can agree with, however that way of thinking was a product of marrying abstract art into architecture. Abstract Art had a great influence on Modern Architecture. The first examples I can think of is Barcelona Pavilion by Mies Van Der Rohe, which not only used ultimate abstraction but gave new meaning to space, structure, and materiality. Abstract art is not a modern phenomenon as you well know, it goes back to thousands of years. But the influence of that art has been the greatest of all other styles on architecture, urban design, and graphic design. CGArt however, hasn’t seen it all with regards to abstract art. As soon as this hype of realism and technological wonders calm down, CGArtists will find new ways to express themselves and put it in use.
One should avoid stereotyping a genre or a style based on some bad apples in the basket. As much I find Orcs, Elves, and other fantasy paintings pointless, I have great respect to those artists who put their true talents in portraying whatever story about these fictional creatures. My taste is not the law of nature, it’s only natural to me and I am entitled to it.

Yeh, my response to these figures the first time I saw them was “oh my, what? son of a …” Sorry no disrespect Stahlberg, but I couldn’t believe at that time someone could exist with that ability, unless… now I know it is Stahlberg :slight_smile:


#120

yes, life may be unfair but we (in all our arrogance, and perhaps subjective solitude) do love to make it “fair”… we love to play the judge because it makes us something that is fealt… I think the reason why people act so adamantly against abstract art is that people can simply judge that Mr Sports Star has worked hard and deserves what he has because he worked for it… I don’t really think it’s the same with abstract art

and ,let’s be honest, there’s gotta be some abstract art that just really isn’t that hard to make, that really didn’t require much from the artist… I’m not trying to hate on things that don’t require effort… but most people don’t like to try to get a message if they feel there was no effort put into creating that message (it feels like being tricked)

it’s easy to resent those people that put little effort into something but reap the benefits regardless (I guess fame or whatever it is people feel artists gain, in this case)

and nobody likes to feel like they are being duped, no reason to trust that said artist had a point if he/she had to disguise it obscure the thing…

the more I discuss this the more I’m reminded of ideas I have about religion…

for one, religion is dictated therefore there is little “bouncing back and forth of ideas” to find the best concept… it wouldn’t be the “truth” unless it was unquestionable, I guess…

also you can’t really criticize someone’s religion because it’s so personal, etc… therefore people find themselves drinking Kool-aid and dying, etc…

so I could say your rods, cones, and scribbles look like crap and you could just look at me like I’m just another one of those insensitive brutes and go the other way never having learned anything

don’t get me wrong, there is no need to change who you are based on an insult but sometimes people DO change us and it’s for the better… I’ve been shown the error of my ways a few times…

I know that probably sounds a bit extreme i.e. good vs bad, error of ways, etc. but please don’t miss the point

in contrast I’m reminded of a different type of religion/spirituality:

viewing abstract art could be very meditative, you just accept it and let your mind go… or at least you challenge yourself to do so… like meditation on a paradox… you only really get it when you let go of your mind’s typically way of seeing/judging things…

I’m not entirely sure about this not being a mind thing because there is a frame of mind that maybe takes over after you release the former, judgmental one… but maybe it’s close…

I’m pretty sure that both of those ideas are central to this discussion, which really does seem to be investigating something other than why there’s little abstract art here…

thanks for the replies

PSR… I thought you raised some interesting points earlier and I’ve been educated by at least one of your posts to this thread… thanks