What has happened since 10.5???

#1

Haven’t been using A:M since 10.5.
What made me leave at that point was mostly the fact that removing creases took a lot more time than to actually build the model, slow render with bad alias, constantly beeing a beta tester with new bugs appearing faster than old would leave, the ‘there is nothing wrong with AM, it’s the user that do something wrong if it crashes’ attitude at the mailing list.

A lot of you brobably know as I was not the only one leaving it back then.

I have been using polygons since then and I really like it a lot better for modelling and because of this I bought XSI Foundation a while ago.

However AM did have some nice parts as well and it have allways had a special place in my heart and as the upgrarde not is that high I did consider to upgrade just for the fun of it.

But, it would not be fun for long if all the old problems still are there. Doing a week of modelling and two weeks of anti crease hunting as in the old days whould make my smile go away really fast…

So a couple of Questions:

  1. What has happened since I left?

  2. Are there still no render nodes included(could compensate for lack of renderspeed)?

  3. When was the last CD released and the next expected (I now know better than to upgrade just before a new CD)?

#2

Well, if you were disappointed with v10.5 I’m not sure v11 will be much of an improvement for you. Version 11 was basically 10.5 only more stable, however it’s one big difference was it introduced Hash’s new dynamic hair system, which in my opinion was definitely worth the upgrade.
10.5 was a good release though. It solved most of the model ‘creasing’ issues with a much improved porcelain material. It also introduced dynamic constraints, ever seen Joe Williamsen’s ‘Hunter’ clips? :slight_smile:

  1. Are there still no render nodes included(could compensate for lack of renderspeed)?

There’s always been AM’s Netrender to spread that load. A limited 3 machine license ain’t that much more than the regular CD version.

  1. When was the last CD released and the next expected (I now know better than to upgrade just before a new CD)?

Version 12 alpha is just out, so if you were to upgrade, now would be a good time. Version 12 will include a built in compositing feature and A:M Sim Cloth, all very impressive.

#3

To get a bit more into details.

It solved most of the model ‘creasing’ issues with a much improved porcelain material.

The last 10.5 version I could run was 10.5p++ if I remember it right. As far as I can remember creasing was really bad in that one also. I do however have some faint memory of trying some version with better porcelain, might have been some of the first v11 releases. One of problems with porcelain was that it removed detail as well, this could be compensated for using some more patches but the other problem I had was worse. When porcelain was added it did remove most creases but it did instead add render artifacts in hook areas that where even worse than the creases it removed. Has this been fixed?

Version 12 alpha is just out, so if you were to upgrade, now would be a good time. Version 12 will include a built in compositing feature and A:M Sim Cloth, all very impressive.

Unless something has changed on how AM upgrades work one do not buy say a v12 and get upgrades untill v13. It’s rather a year based system. I will get the current CD and I can then download patches untill they release a new CD (usually a year after the previous cd were released). Because of this it was better to upgrade AM after the release of a new CD or at least not upgrade it close to the release of a new CD. So, unless somthing has changed in this area my question remain.

When was the last CD relesed and when is the next CD release expected?

(As it’s named 2005 I suppose it’s was released this year or at the end of 2004 but I would like to know for sure)

#4

As far as I can remember, there’s no 10.5p++, there was 8.5p++ but perhaps you meant version 9. That was the time of trouble and many folks left. As Pequod said, there’s a new porcelain material in 10.5 with adjustable setting, so you don’t have to lose the details that you want. I love that thing, crease is history. I don’t remember about the hook area, I think it works ok. I remember there’s problem with 5 point patches though, I believe Hash’s still working on it.

The new AM2005 cd was just released.
http://www.hash.com/am2005/

I’m still using 10.5r, I found it stable for me. There’s tip on how to tune your computer to get the best AM experience.
www.ksanderson.com/amtips.html

With simplicity, fast workflow this software is beauty man, especially if you’re a lone animator.

#5

The v11.1 (2005) CD started shipping in early December. I think 11.1b is the latest update on the site. There’s a new CD coming out this year, when I don’t know. I do know the submissions deadline for the “Extra CD” from the A:M Community that some users are working on is March 1. A:M will then ship with 2 CDs…the official Hash CD (program and the usual related content), and the Extra CD with models, tutes, etc. contributed by generous users.

BTW, Hash, Inc. (Bob Croucher ported it) has done a great job with the new cloth! I saw a couple movies that show it works and very well in v12 Alpha (especially the flag and torus movies).

I can’t comment on hooks rendering with porcelain as I haven’t used them in a while.

Kevin

(apprentice…Thanks for mentioning my old tips page!)

#6

The current version is 11.1, but, the CD that started shipping in December 2004 is keyed for any release during 2005…so, when v12 is released sometime this year (from what I gather, around March or April) you won’t have to pay anything more to upgrade. Although v12 is supposed to have a second CD of extras that will come with it, if you have already bought the upgrade I have heard that you will be able to get the second CD for the cost of shipping…you’d have to ask Hash about their plans though, it’s just talk amongst some users.

The last version of 10.5 was 10.5r, you should still be able to download that version from Hash’s FTP site if you want it.

I use hooks all the time with the porcelain material without any artifacts…if you set the strength at “0” you get a reduction in creases without losing detail, so it’s a little different than 10.5 (I don’t think there was a way to set the intensity back then, if I’m remembering correctly). However, the porcelain material is not a replacement for good modeling.

The patches and upgrades thoughout the year is still the way it works, I generally stay with a version for serious work that I know is stable and install the latest version in another directory to test it out.

No program is going to be the best for everybody, it sounds like you like XSI. Personally, I haven’t had any problems with AM that were earth shattering since v9.5…your mileage may vary.

#7

Porcilain works with hooks just as long as you only have one hook and it goes into the middle of the spline. I didn’t find it that hard to get round this though.

Rmember that there is still an art to creasless modeling. Make sure the patches are round and all that stuff. I have been getting into sub-d modelling and I like it but I find that sometimes I am annoyed that I can’t add a crease like I can in splines. In subds you have to add extra geometry to get the shape that you want (in most modellers it seems) With practice, splines give you the best of both worlds.

#8

I installed the latest version I had, 10.5o.

Now I could se that it’s not the hooks that was the main problem but rather the five pointers. Check the image of Jane with porcelain in use.

It would be nice if someone could load Jane, apply porcelain and make render in order to show me if it works better in later versions.

Rmember that there is still an art to creasless modeling

Yes, but only in AM. In subd modeling I find that I can concentrate on the artistic part and forget about creases and planning of the model. It is of cource possible to get creases in a subd model as well but it is so much more easy to correct it.

Well, I played a little with the bones. It’s so easy to do the basic constrain types in AM.
In XSI constrains is a lot more complex and even something simple such as having a bone adjusting its lengt when following a null needs an expression to be written.
I really like that part of AM.

I have a couple of questions If someone could help:
I wanted a couple of cp:s to be influenced by two bones. How do I do this in 10.5 and if not supported is it supported in later versions?

Another thing that was really annoying, was the totally awfull screen handling speed. I did set the resolution (smooth level or what’s it called) to second highest and I got a frame rate of around 1-2 frames per second (in a window around 1200x1200) for the Jane model!

It can’t have more than a couple of thousand cp:s(don’t remember how to check).
My computer is an AMD64 +3500, 2Gb Ram, with a gForce 6800 GT with 256Mb.

I made a test to compare with XSI. I created a textured object with 8 millon vertices.
In shaded mode I still have 25 FPS.

(Used OpenGL in both.)

How does the screen handling in todays versions compare to version 10.5?

#9

I’m surprised no one has responded yet.
I loaded the model in V.11.0 with no artifact problems.
( I tried both Open GL and Direct 3D )
At max resolution, she spins at around 2.5 FPS. Second level down, she spins at around 8- 8.5 FPS. :hmm:
( It’s a tablet PC )

BTW, I still run into shading problems every now and then.
Usually it is as a result of having the normal on the patch flipped the wrong way. Sometimes it also helps to detach and then re-attach one of the splines in the patch.

Good luck

#10

Hello.

The problem with the Jane model is that some of her patch normals are facing the wrong direction. When using the porcelain material it is vital that all the normals are facing outwards. Just hit Shift 1. She should look like a yellow porcupine. Any normal facing inwards will create a black rendering glitch, when using the porcelain matarial. To flip a normal on a patch, hit shift P and click on the patch. This will select the patch. Then hit F to flip the normal.

It’s a good idea to make sure normals are facing outwards. It’s important for collision detection, etc. Jim Talbot is a talented guy, and I’m deeply grateful that he is so generous with sharing his models, but he just didn’t do this final step, of grooming Jane for errant normals. Maybe he figgered that was Tarzan’s job. :wink:

I’ve attached a jpg which shows the porcelain material on Jane. This was done on A:M v10.5q.

I wish I could help you with your screen handling speed. Something seems to be amiss with your setup, 'cuz I’m getting fast realtime playback on my machine.

Hope this helps a little.

Sincerely,

Carl Raillard

#11

Yeah, now that you mentioned the normal facing I do remeber the problem and that it could be fixed. So then it must have been the hooks anyway. Maybe not a big problem in later version as people think it works ok now.

Well, I don’t know what could be wrong with my card. I works perfectly in all the other applications.

What frame rate do you get using Jane, second best smooth, maximzing the model window (preferable at 1600 resolution), zoom in so the model fills the hight of it and then rotate the screen?

If you have something like 10 FPS i would still call it terrible, if you get 50-100 FPS it would be more OK as it leavs some room room for a bigger model.

I made a comparison by exporting Jane to 3DS format with sibdivsion at max (16) resulting in a 16000 vertice model and then loaded it into XSI. I got 75 FPS witch is max I get even with a 8 vertice cube.

I think I have to add 1-2 million vertices before framereate drops below 75.

Vegan:
What resolution did you test at?

#12

I’ve just tested the realtime speed of Jim’s Jane model on my machine, which is a 2 GHz Athlon with a 128 MB 9200 Radeon card. I’m getting in the region of 50fps at 4 polygons per patch, i.e second best setting. That’s with decals on. Varying the size of the playback window makes very little difference. You’re not running this on the OSX version of A:M by any chance? :wink:

With regard to the creasing issue, even on the best crafted models in A:M, I can nearly always detect a slight unintentional ‘spline lumpiness.’ It does take time ironing out these bumps, but to be hung up on very minor artifacts is missing the whole point of A:M’s spline philosophy … and that is, in case you need reminding, it’s ease, speed and power at animation. Okay, so you might have to spend a little longer modelling if you want to create marble smooth skin, but you’ll make up that time and indeed have plenty to spare when it comes to rigging and animation.

#13

Those aren’t minor artifacts when they occur during a final quality rendering on the face (a typical place to porcelein a little) of a character. I’ve seen them a lot in 8.5, and I think this is what he’s referring to. Porcelein doesn’t affect shaded mode.

I think he’s wondering if this is something that has been cleaned up in the latest versions so that actually using porc. in a final render is actually possible.

#14

I just want to chime in agreement with Pequod. When animating I use the 4 polygon per patch realtime render setting. At that setting, the screen feedback is, for all practical purposes, instantaneous. In v10.5.

When modeling an intricate shape, like a face, it helps to increase the realtime shaded mode to 16 polygons per patch. If you hide the rest of the model, you should still get decent screen performance. Only at the highest “adaptive” realtime setting do I notice a wearisome degree of sluggishness. I use this highest setting very seldom, though. I use it when fine-tuning crucial areas (e.g. sculpting ears or lips).

Oh, Hellborn, you asked for info about getting a CP to be influenced by two bones. You can do this in version 10.5 … but Version 11 has some cool additional tools to adjust Control Point weighting. You may want to watch this mov file, where Bob Croucher discusses these new tools.
http://www.s1.hashmirror.com/ftp/pub/movies/BobCPWeights.mov
This is a large mov file. It takes a while to download. Bob explains a lot.

Sincerely,

Carl Raillard

#15

I agree that 4 is enogh in most cases and the speed at that setting is god enough, but the second highest is what I need for my modelling and I think it creates 16 polygons.

That’s why I did subdivide by 16 when exporting for the XSI test.

I did realise that the speed comparison to a 16000 vertice model is somewhat unfair as AM not only shows 16000 polygons but also the controlling spline cage. Because of this I instead created an 2000 vertice controll cage that was subdivided into a 32000 vertice model.
I do however still get +75 FPS in XSI.
AM reaches a speed thats about 1/100 of XSI.
What is it that eats all that speed in AM? ;(

Currently this is a real mental blocker when considering to upgrade AM.
If Jane takes that long, and I would estimate my models to use at least 2 -4 times as many cp:s…hmm I don’t know.

It’s no big deal in one way as I would upgrade just for fun and out of curiosity but on the other hand, if it is this slow I will go mad as I allways will compare to my polygon apps…

I’m running on a W2K system no OSX.

#16

if it is this slow I will go mad as I allways will compare to my polygon apps…

I haven’t had any problems and my system is only an AMD 2000+, 512 MB RAM, 64 MB GeForce4 MX 420, ECS K75SA motherboard running WinXP. There must be something not optimized in your rig.

Have you tried using DirectX for your realtime rendering? Have you tried the tips on the AM Tips page?

To me it sounds like you’ll be happier with the poly apps you currently use.

#17

DirectX has never worked correctly in my case, on my current computer AM hangs as sone as I activate textured mode and do any screen handling. On my previous computer I had strange screen update problems when using more than one window.

I did read the tip page:
And it’s mostly about how to not provoke AM to crash.
Nothing there explaining why the AM OpenGL is so slow.
It’s more about how to optain stability in AM and the conclusion would be to more or less have a dedicated computer for AM.

Well, after v10.5 I think AM got stable enough to be usefull.
Am is not the only application that crashes now and then. The only 3D app I not have crashed so far is Cinema3D.

The thing that put me of right now is the slow screen handling. When using AM some years ago I mainly used AM and did not really have anything to compare to. I thought the screen handling was slow and was allways supriced how little extra speed I got from each computer upgrade.

When I did switch to polygons I did not think much about it but now that I’m trying AM again I noticed how slow the OpenGL is.

So unless I can get faster OpenGL in the version I have or someone comfirms OpenGL to be much faster in later releases I will probably not upgrade because I think it would drive me insane.

And yes I like subd polygon modeling, I think it beats AM splines anytime.

However, the modeling part is not all.
Different polygon apps uses different solutions for bones and animation.
I’m not that much into animation as I most do stills but the character needs to be posable anyway and when it comes to bones. Nothing on the polygon market that I have tried so far equals AMs bones. The mix of how hard/easy they are to setup compared to the result I can get in relationship to the level of complexity I need is right on spot in AM.

The poly apps I used so far either have bones that are easy to setup but offers to little detailed control over vertices or gives you detailed controll but is hard to setup.

That’s why I would like to see how AM develops…

Subd polygon modeling, AMs bones and animation. What an application it would be…:wink:

#18

Hellborn : I run at 1400 X 1050 and with 32 bit color. ( on a tiny 12 inch screen ! )

Whuups !
In my haste, I forgot to apply the porcelain material.
There are indeed artifacts to the model in version 11 onwards … but as others have mentioned, it is as a result of the normals facing the wrong way.
When I applied porcelain to the model, it slowed its frame rate down slightly.
With Open GL the FPS were 2.6, 4.8, 71 ( big jump ), and 105.
Direct 3D ( v8 ) were 2.8, 3.7,41.2,and 56

#19

Thank’s a lot everyone for helping me with my decision.

I’s a pity the screen handling is so slow ;(

I will have to think this over, maybe I buy it later on but for this time I will put the money into an XSI rigging tutorial instead.

#20

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