Topology research

#701

the initial poly cage is the base on which surface detail is added. As such, the cage needs adequate edge flow; edge flow that can support the details and the deformations of a much higher resolution smoothed mesh.

What Laa-Yosh is saying, I think, is that Pixar is doing something that lends it self to a particular work flow:

Catoons have a certain simplisity of form and exagreation of certain kinds of details. As such once a basic cage is built multiple high resolution smooth-meshes can be made that appear radically different. The basic cage is what allows them to do this.

In general a very good base cage can be tweaked into almost any other cage; however, that takes a very good cage. I believe that Steven Ståhlberg has (still is?) used (using) such a method in his digital women.

#702

Pixar’s using 100% same geometry for most / all characters.

I guess with Incredibles they only did this for the crowds; the heroes all had individual models. For Ratatouille the humans weren’t that important or characteristic, so they could treat them all like background crowd characters (I actually didn’t really like most of the guys in the kitchen).

As for base cages, I don’t really spend time on stuff like this. With Topogun it’s usually quicker to start from scratch.

#703

Thanks! :slight_smile:
Yes doing is better than conemplating. I am doing, and have been for some time but, it was time to get some things clear as my modeling has been getting stiffled with all these wondering questions I have.
I’ll dig up some of my models and explain my topology logic on some of them. maybe that would be a better way to clear some things up in my head :slight_smile:
Is that cool?

Again, thanks! :slight_smile:

#704

Hi, forget about poles being bad for animation, unless you are modeling a model with 30 faces or something. Most models are mid or high poly, so won’t see any so called pinching effect.

Some of your poles has 6 edges. Those should be eliminated, the other poles don’t pose much of a problem other they direct the loops in the wrong direction. Mayba this thread can help you understand topology more:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=93651

I tried to keep it as program agnostic as possible, and I think a LW user shouldn’t have any trouble following this thread.

#705

I’m a bit scared to say, but I find your explanations pretty hard to follow… E-poles, C-loops, too much text, too much thought, too much to take in. Maybe I’m getting old but I can’t even read through it all.
Don’t get me wrong, I really appreciate your intentions and the incredible effort it must’ve taken to compile all the text and images (did stuff like that myself a few years ago so I know how much work it is).

You should put the horse in front of the cart - everyone should try to get the basics down first, form and shape and propoprtions and anatomy.
Sculpting is a much more natural, easier and faster way to model, everyone should use it as a first stage. There really is no sense in trying to model something complex from a cube any more. Learn to build a simple box man for sculpting and get it into Zbrush or Mudbox first. Worry about topology and poles and loops - about technical stuff - later.

You should be able to simplify any kind of system to a small set of fundamental rules. It’s easier to explain, to understand and to put into practice.
It’s interesting and challenging to try to analyze stuff to its last bits and pieces and it will produce practical results as well (I’ve seen a lot of stuff in your writings that I’ve sort of filtered down through experience on my own, too).

I’m kinda tired, so I’ll stop here… I also realize that maybe it’d be better to spend time on actually writing about the topology issues instead of discussing other people’s efforts and opinions, so maybe I’ll end up doing that :wink:

Oh and someone sent me an email through CGTalk and I can’t reply to him any other way - I don’t have a website, sorry :wink:

#706

I think that you’re right about too much focus on technical aspects, if this were only a modeling forum. There’s more to it though, well more and less; unless I’m mistaken this forum isn’t about shape or form so much as it is about arranging the topological lines to achieve efficient geometry. If you bring the modeling apps like Zbrush and Mudbox into the mix, then it seems that this forum is obsolete. It isn’t, but this forum has been going for five years, and so the info was much more necessary previously. Which is probably why the posts have been only commentary and not actual modeling work. If we were to compile all of the information in this forum and create guidelines for correct topological arrangement, you could probably narrow it down to a couple pages, with a lot of examples there after.

#707

I have been sculpting for a couple years now. My training has been at AAU, GCA Atleir in New York and BACCA Atleir in Belmont. I have stronge Traditional Classical Art skills. I think I have put the horse way way way in front of the cart.

Anyway, thanks for all your thoughts and comments all. I will leave you guys now.

Thanks

#708

Hola Tamas,

You are getting old, as well as me. The main problem is that I think there are basic rules, but the current generation of artists tries to incorporate it into strict rules. Rules are against art. Few things to consider when modeling:
-Use quads (better deformation, less glitches when sculpting)
-Use evenly distributed polygons (many LW artist tend to use awfully distorted polygons, that may look good on screen, but animation and sculpting may be painful)
-Follow the outlines with your topology.
-Poles may be problematical (not necessary), so try to keept their number low, and put them to places, where you can deal with them.

And as our friend LY said. Sculpt first, then build the topology. Sculpting is almost pure artistic experience. You don’t care about technical issues, just the shapes and forms. When you are ready you may use Topogun, ZBrush, etc. to build up your real geometry. This is mostly technical task. Think of this as it work in the large studios. A clay sculpture of the creature is created, then it is scanned, and the modeler created the model with proper topology. Here you are the sculptor, and the modeler as well.

So enough talk. I think that organizing pole types, and so are not the best way to be an industry level artist. And moreover, I have seen many pages about the e/loops, c/loops etc., but there weren’t too much good models there.

#709

Sculpt first than build the topology:

Not everyone has Mudbox or Zbrush. The other progs that do have sculpting are at best adequate compared to the former two. But I think that condensed remarks like, don’t explain, just do it the correct way are symptomatic to the problem that most have. Yes, some can play the piano like a virtuoso after just one week because they just get it. Some others take years to get anywhere. And by saying that it serves little purpose to analyse this because it is art or whichever reason, the fact remains that there are people out there yearning to reach the level of you guys. Obviously you guys are not gods, or you most excellent models are not conceived through some kind of magic.

Topology is a complex subject, and like any other complex subject it deserves analysis.
The biggest advantage of scultping is that you are not bound by the limitation of the concept of technology (all quads, loop here and loop there) but by your own artistic limitation. Tools that are used for sculpting are not more technical than a chissel and a hammer. The biggest downside of sculpting is that you are bound by technology itself!
Until we have quantum computers in which we can model billions of polys and have them rigged and animated smoothly, I’ll hang on to traditional box modeling or poly by poly modeling.

Once someone said something about sculpting Angelina Jolie, and I said why? She has a very smooth face. In other words, sculpting is not the method to model for all situations. It only makes sense for very specific situations/ needs.

My 2 cents.

#710

You are a bit wrong. Sculpting works in every situation. Even when you are doing inorganic things. I don’t say that you need not to know about the issues with modeling, but I don’t see the point of the over analysis. There people talking too much of jargon, without any valuable product. Topology is important, but the form is more important. With sculpting you can easily have the proper form. You may have a kickass topology if the form is not right. And believe me, if you spent days with careful modeling of a character with excellent topology, and you need to change something…it’s a nightmare. With sculpting it takes about 2-3 days to create basic character concept. When it’s approved, only the topology will change, the details are in place. It’s another day or two to build the topology, reproject the details, and continue detailing. The rest is to make UV, and textures, shading, whatever needed.

There are not only ZBrush and Mudbox, Silo, modo has also sculpting capabilities, even if they are far from the forementioned two.

I understand that you prefer modeling first, especially if you don’t have acces to these programs. But believe me, if you are going to create a good Angelina Jolie, it’s the best if you sculpt her first.

#711

I would separate topology(modeling) from sculpting itself:
• Basic topology for sculpting
• Complex topology for a character design

The thing is, you don’t need to be an expert at all, to sculpt or to be great artist, both are not tied together, not at all. and When you see an excellent peace or Art, usually it is not about techniques, but details.

So I know for sure that a simple character requires a very simple topology, usually just the basics about subdivitions, like those webpages taking about poles.
But complex characters, requires a much more complex topology, in fact it can get so complex, that I don’t think zbrush wold be usefull to redesign the topology. I other words zbrush is not for profesional modeling tool, its mainly of Artistic modeling, hard modeling, very basic topology, and as a starting point…

Someone can become very experimented with their software, and sculpting is not required unless you need many more details. but if you know the character your designing, if you know what you have to do, then you do it. but if you don’t then perhaps you should try zbrush.

There is another thread about topology, I think in the Maya section, and that is a terrible situation of how people can convince themselves that something bad is good. So don’t be wrong, when you consider sculpting as a tool for profesionals… because it’s first goal is as a tool for artists, as the galleries are demostrating…

#712

hmm well i have to admit that i think modellig of characters these days is, unless they are pretty simple stylewise, a total timewaste, why sculpting angelina jolie? because her is face is not as smooth as you say, it’s all about subtle forms and thats a pain in the ass on vertex level, not having sculptingtools these days is like doing lifesize sculptures with a toothpick, it’s possible sure, but sculpting didn’t just evolve because modelling was oh so great, it limits artwise way more then sculpting does and is so damn timeconsuming in comparison.
Next step would be to kill topology for the forming process (back then called modelling now called sculpting) at all or to change it on the fly where needed.

usually it is not about techniques, but details.

i would disagree, details are just blenders, basic form is what count’s way more, at least to me

#713

I do ALL of my character modeling with sculpting first. It’s much easier. Even the most complex characters can be sculpted. Or use simple topology object for the sculpt. It is so easier sculpt any form, than to model. When I’m ready with sculpting, I have a good model, that lacks the CGish look, and ready to create the topology. Topogun is excellent for that, better at this point then ZBrush. But I did retopology in XSI without any problem. Look, if you sculpt first an topologize later, you can separate the two phases for a more effective workflow.
But there is no absolute truth. This workflow fits better to those who are skilled or talented users of pencils, while others with skilled vertexpushing abilities may found this bad.

#714

Well, I see what you guys are getting at and I’m not debating this at all. I just want to learn through discussion.
I do have have access to modeling tools because I use Blender. Even more, the sculpting tools are very topology friendly in that it uses multi resolution. You can revert back to a previous subdivision level to make changes to the topology, go back to the high res level where the topology changes are there in place too.

I don’t dispute that a sculpted Angelina Jolie won’t look good. These are couple of sculpts made by Romeo in Blender with which I want to illustrate that you are right about the results:

But in my opinion I think that the first example is a bit of overkill. I think it could be easily done with traditional modeling. The base mesh of the girl is almost more than half the work. A few sub divs more and I’m sure you’ll get the same result.

Now, the dog is another situation that would be hard to model with topology or bump/ displacement mapping. To model those folds in the traditional way would be hard, yet with sculpting it’s easy and the results are dramatic.
Many models can be traditionaly modeled and properly uv-mapped to show high detail. The model will stay light and workable.

I heard Z-brush is fast, but in Blender you have to disable UNDO if you want to sculpt a million poly and even so you have to hide parts of the mesh from time to time to keep things running smoothly.

#715

Great examples!

Blender is getting better and better. Anyway, just to make some conclusion, some likes blond girls, some like browns. That’s the same here. I prefer sculpting first, I have a solid look, how it’ll look finally, and then I sepnd few hours with topology, and ready.

That’s I made as a sculpt first (it’s a fast sculpt, but for laying out the character was the fastest way)

The concept artist asked me to change few things, and it was really easy, because nothing was against it. I smoothed the areas in question, and rebuilt with claytubes brush. The total work was done in 2 comfortable days (including consultation, etc). The character was then retopologized within a day, uvmapped in an hour or two, and the company I worked for busted. So that’s the all I have of this unfinshed piece…:frowning:

But to me this workflow fits better, to you the other fits better.

#716

Yes,shape is very important, but, something comes to my mind, about topology vs details:
Your character j3st3r, It has muscles, and those muscles have detail, but there is another kind of details, when you are animating, for example:
those muscles could be animated like real muscles and would require good topology or a dense mesh, or perhaps the arm itself is going to be animated as a whole, and muscle will follow… and the end result is going to be very good.

What I mean is that each character has a purpose beforehand, and based on that people can decide what kind of details are important: static details or details related to animation.

but if animation details are required, you need to design them, and the great benefit of sculpting is shape. but still it depends on how complex the character is going to behave. I suppose a specific workflow can be good,better in different senses, like speed, but this thread is more about topology in general, than effective workflows. be it difficult or easy
all i say is that sculpting has its purpose, and topology it’s own. mixing them would confuse a little the idea of finding better topology

#717

Ruramuq, you have a point there. The first thing you have to consider before modeling/ sculpting is: animation or still?
The second thing you should consider: functional detail.
A fat face has a different topology than a rugged face etc.
Topology helps drive the shaping of the form better. But if you modeling for animation, the topology should make the details part of the model, and not as if it was pasted on.

#718

You didn’t understand my point. I told, that I start to work on a sculpt, as they work in films. When the shapes are OK, I can work on the proper topology. So what’s the question? The topology will be good for animation and still images as well, but I don’t try to focus on two tasks at once. Let’s from the shape, and then let’s build the proper topology.

#719

Yeah, seems like you guys don’t get what Jester’s saying… I’ll see if I can put together something in the near future…

#720

It’s my fault Tamas, my English is rubbish.