The Day the Music Died


#41

I’m reading mixed information about the future of the license model.
Is there a definitive page somewhere on Maxon’s website where I can finally understand what will happen?
The last thing I remember was, no more MSA after August; perpetual I’m not sure; and definitely subscription. Also, subscription will have Cineversity, perpetual no (?).

My issue was with the end of MSA. Not only I bought Cinema full price when I could have waited to save a lot of money, but also with the subscription it seems the price increases (because the monthly cost is, sorry don’t know how to put it, fake) and the access to my work is limited to whether I pay or not.
These, to me, are the main issues. Any comprehensible clarification on that?

Thanks


#42

I liked the old Maxon. Now it’s borderline sleazy. Hollow, insulting “For the World” slogans, empty upgrades, pressured subscriptions, escalated prices for perpetual licenses. Double Talk. And the planned campaign of FUD.

Truly, the death of a something that was good. Oh well…a new birth elsewhere for many of us.

And to be clear: I’m not talking about you, Srek. All this stuff wasn’t your decision, I know. You seem like a good egg.


#43

Who said the perpetual license upgrade would cost 900$?
I did not read anything from Maxon on this topic. They acknowledged they are working on this topic and haven’t come to a decision yet.
This will, I think, be a good sign of where Maxon is heading: if they crank up the price, we will know what their priorities are.


#44

This $ amt came from a poster over at c4dcafe…He contacted Maxon sales and that 's what he was told. I think the amt. was $920 or $940.


#45

Yeah, that’s when you don’t own an MSA.
I think I remember this thread.
Would be quite silly from Maxon to crank up the price by 50% and hit long term premium users who faithfully paid their MSA’s year on year, sometimes for decades like me.

Does not make sense to me from a marketing and customer standpoint: subscriptions are designed to recruit new users and trade up existing ones.

This should not impact the current studio user base.


#46

They want to steer people into subscriptions… will use a cattle prod if necessary.


#47

I don’t understand how people could get the impression, that developement under subscription would improve or speed up. The only difference is, that the same amount of features will not get published once a year, but twice or maybe three times. that also means, that the amount of improvements will be smaller or less with every (more frequently) update. I really have no problem to wait one year to get the updates considering, that it normally takes me 8 Month till I start to use a new version. But of course I know that there are people for whom it is important to always have the latest, and for them it is certainly great.


#48

Development doesn’t speed up, but when they release can change. If a developer, or small team of developers, have finished off a project (which may have been in development for 1-4 years), it has been tested and documentation done, then it can now be integrated into the main build and released to the public. Under the traditional yearly update this may have to wait 1.5 years before the public see it. This is since a feature may be finished in say March, might be too late to enter the yearly beta cycle so can’t get released by September, so it has to skip the release for that year and wait till the following year.


#49

I just wanted to say this: Kent…I’m rooting for you. As a beta tester for your plugins I observed that you are a committed and quality developer. Way above the norm. I wish this new Maxon licensing crap–that you gently alluded to on Twitter-- wasn’t taking such a toll on plugin developers. It’s going to take many c4d plugin makers clear out of the market.

Knowing you…you’ll find a way to succeed no matter the circumstance. Best wishes, friend. And by friend…I mean someone who took the time–way beyond the scope of business-- to give me helpful counsel about my health. A truly good human soul…and in this market of humans…that I truly cherish.


#50

I understand what you are saying, but i don’t think that maxon will update c4d more regularly then twice a year. So we gain half a year? and as I said. the developement speed of C4d is not so fast and the yearly updates are not so huge, that I would loose the overview. btw. I do not blame the developers for this. I think that nemechek takes to much money out of maxon. Besides takes there was hardly any feature that I couldn’t have waited half a year longer for.
But fine. I like a subsription option, as long as there is also perpetual as a offer and cutomers, that payed maxon in advance do not get punished (with higher update prices and loss of features (cineversity)).


#51

I have no idea what they will do. But it gives them options. Also another possibility is to immediately be responsive to customer feedback. Perhaps someone needs a few new options or checkboxes, this now gives MAXON the ability to quickly respond, add in the new features and push out a release in weeks rather than having to wait another year. It is going to be interesting to see what happens.


#52

Ask yourselves why the Perpetual option is not given as much prominence as Subs and there’s no pricing information easily available. The confusion is entirely part of the plan, to muddy the water, I’ve seen users on Twitter say the MSA still exists so what’s the problem with Subs. If Maxon is prepared to stitch up the Perpetual license owners when this license is withdrawn how long do you think it will be before the same thing happens to Subscription pricing?

Maxon will want to get rid of Perpetual licenses ASAP because if they continue to sell them users will expect a decent size upgrade each year, they’re paying so much more now. This in turn will mean that the Subs branch will have to match this feature set as soon as the Perpetual licenses are removed the Subscription development will slowly drop away or they can do what they’ve done to Perpetual and rise the price 50%. There’s nothing to stop them.

If Maxon were serious about ‘3D for the World’ they could’ve got real with pricing, charging over $3k for an application that is horribly outdated in so many aspects which continues to exhibit the significant performance issues it suffered from 10 years ago is daylight robbery. An Indie license could’ve been brought in to put C4D into the hands of more people or even a rent to own policy. It’s not rocket science if you’re truly trying to be a generous benefactor…but Maxon is not. It’s late stage capitalism that sees users as units of wealth to bleed dry.

The introduction of the Subs system says to me one thing, Maxon no longer back themselves to deliver the next-gen version of C4D that would be so attractive to the 3D industry that it would significantly increase their market share and pull users away from the other applications. They’ve instead decided to pillage the pockets of their current users to get them to pay more and get much less, this is so much less effort than developing better software.

Anybody who thinks Subscriptions will increase the rate of development shows stultifying naivete and once the Perpetual license is a memory it will be quite the reverse.


#53

Well, if my informations are correct, I wouldn’t call Maxon’s offer much of a pertetual license.
I would have to re-register every 14 days and hence give Maxon the option to pull the plug when ever they feel like doing so or if they come up with another great idea for their license system.

Beside that, I dont think letting me go through a annoying registration procedure every 14 day is the right way to threat a customer.

If my informations are wrong, please correct me.


#54

I don’t think this will be a complicated procedure, I guess it will just run in the background.

That however is the single biggest question for me. I asked it several times here, no answer from Maxon. I asked my reseller, however he only sent me a general multi-purpose answer regarding the new licensing. I really hope Björn or Rick can answer this: Is there any scenario in which the perpetual licenses might be deactivated in the future without me changing anything? Is there a contractual security for us? I already accepted that this is the end for my journey with C4D. Will use it as long as it gives me what I need, but most probably I wont have any new version after april of next year. I decided to stop whining about it. But I just want to know if this is the last unpleasant surprise…


#55

Maybe not complicated as long as you have internet access but still an annoyance.
And I surely don’t pay 3500, 00€ for a software that is phoning home and annoys me.
I have enough annoyance for free every day. :wink:

However, I recon your biggest question is already answered.
Silence sometimes says a lot more than words.
And even if they would say now that this information is completely wrong,
would you trust them?

So yes, end of the journey for me as well.
And as my business don’t depend on C4D, no whining here either.
I just thought it might be of interest to point out what Maxon means if they are talking about a perpetual license.

Personally, I’m rather glad they came up with this *** soon enough to stop me from investing 8000,00€ in their software (Archicad+C4D).

So thanks Maxon/Nemetschek and have fun with your new Adobe-CEO.


#56

You’ll find the official FAQ here:
https://www.maxon.net/en/products/cinema-4d/new-in-release-21/faq/

We’re working on a plan for perpetual users to have access to Cineversity - stay tuned.

I’ve also been doing my best to provide clarification in some of the other threads both here and elsewhere.

I’m not aware of any such scenario, nor do I think there would be any sense or merit to doing so. The only thing that should affect your perpetual at all is taking a discount for conversion to subscription.


I didn’t want to leave your questions hanging in this thread, but please ask your questions in one of the others I linked - it’s getting hard for me to follow all the various threads and the basic idea put forth at the start of this one is so completely misguided I don’t want to continue to respond here and push this thread up the list.

I’m blessed to work with an incredibly talented and devoted team at Maxon, and the team is working harder than ever and is more focused than ever to deliver amazing features and outstanding value to what I continue to believe is a fantastic and incredibly passionate user community.


#57

Thanks Rick, I really want to believe that Maxon is still the company that I have praised for the last decade. Whatever is going on at the headquarters, I truly hope that the various threads here and on C4d café helped everyone realize that the new subscription model and the loss of cineversity for some of us are serious concerns.


#58

Thx Rick, this is not really a definite answer though. And the scenario is relatively easy to imagine: just look at Autodesks recent surprise for its customers: Autodesk Perpetual LIcenses suddenly not perpetual anymore
And the sense or merit could just be plain old money.
Without the 14 day activation there was never the question if this could happen since there was no technical way to force this. But now, given Maxons recent moves and the precedent by Autodesk I do not think this is an irrelevant question.


#59

If I was looking for any software 3D software, any phoning home every 14 days would be off my list, regardless of the price it is, be that £30 or £3000 pounds. Maxon’s move to go subscription with that sort of thing attached will actually increase piracy of previous versions…because of the way the people have seen Adobe move.

Another factor, is that Maxon will lose all incentive to deliver and push for great updates at year end. It will really feel like being an employee looking at biscuits rolling by on a conveyer belt feeling the monotony…getting slower and slower, not meeting targets because there’s small bunch of subscribers providing the bread and butter…

What’s next ? A merger with Adobe in the next 2 years…


#60

The license validation has to happen at least every 14 days, there is no interaction by the user needed for this after initial registration and login. Once logged in you just don’t notice it happening in the background. It is also realy only that, license validation. If you use a license on multiple systems you might be prompted to manage licensing if another sytsem already laid claim. Different to the old system (Maxon license server) you can actually do something about blocked licenses now without access to the other system. Different to MSA the number of systems you install Cinema on is not limited, just the concurrent use of the license.
Over all i think that people who are very mobile in where they work now have an easier way to legaly use Cinema on multiple systems, while everyone working on a single system in a fixed location won’t notice any difference after inital login.
It is to early to talk about this in any detail, but we are certainly looking at ways to give users other advantages via the MyMaxon account.

On the development cycle. I can only agree with Kent here. Personaly i hate what came out of the yearly release cycle we had for basically 2 decades now. It forces development in a time based straight jacket that is often hindering things. The development problems we face are so varied that having a one year interval for everything is just not working. It forces Dev, QA, Design, Documentation, Marketing, Sales etc. to intensively focus on and work in lockstep. Being able to release features in a more flexible way will help us to spread the load and work much more efficently. It allows us to spend time as needed, not as forced. In the end we want one thing, to deliver a product that is worth our customers interest and money. The subscription model paves the way to do this. Perpetual release will just be accumulated subscription releases, however many there may be, in a yearly interval. Nothing that costs us much extra effort to provide. The important question for us is not how many customers go for perpetual or subscription, we earn a living with both, but how much more efficient we can work in a less strict timeframe.
If you take a closer look you can see that the reduction to a single version follows a similar logic. Instead of spending time and effort on multiple variations we made things simpler for everyone. Feature development can be a nightmare if you have to try to create a balanced mix for multiple different releases, something we were not able to pull off every time in the past. Fewer releases also mean, a lot, fewer dependency problems.
All in all I realy believe that the switch we made will be to our customers and our own advantage.
Sorry for the rocky start we had, as always things turn out a bit different than planned, but we are working on it.