Spline versus poly

#1

that was cool lafnjack. I understand what you are saying.
I think every program has it’s good and bad points.
It’s own wishlist.
Own strenght’s and weaknesses.
It’s elitist’s and its casual user.
It’s cultist followers and it’s haters
I personally have one complaint and only one. I think any program, art peice, tool, or product is open to both bashing and praise. NO one should truly take offense.

No offense taken (and none intended from my end). However, I disagree with the points you make for the AM critique. My purpose is only discussion. If I’m wrong and a buncha people tell me so, that’s fine. I learn something.

To me A:M is like a Honda Civic, affordable. Great gas mileage, nice looking, and for a little money I can get the extras DVD player, disk changer, sun roof. A:M is like a Honda Civic, I can get a lot for my money.

I disagree with the metaphor. To me, its like art media. Charcoal, colored pencils, or markers. However, unlike specific media, AM is able to change its look (one of the better toon renderers out there, as well as a solid realistic renderer). It has something for everyone, but no part of each featureset is really lacking.

Other programs are like a Jetta. It is more expensive but has the V6 I want. Being more expensive I can’t get all the bell’s and whistles as I did in the Civic. I can get my v6 but cannot afford the rest.

Again, I disagree. If we’re talking rendering speed, we can always create a render farm. I think the main contention has been polygonal/subdivision modelling, versus splines. I don’t think subdivision modelling is THAT much faster. For instance, to create your building example, I created a simple square. Used the “peak” button to angle it. Extruded it, then copy and pasted it twice (two smaller side walls), pulled it out to be larger and copy and pasted that 3 times (roof and opposing wall). Then fashioned (sized) the basis of the building and put the walls together with the roof. That took about 90 seconds or less. The rest was pretty quick, but a little more involved. Again, it took ABOUT ten minutes, but I’m new to splining.
I created a face in about 1 hour (note, this was not animation ready by a long shot). Its relatively quick. HOWEVER, to get to these points, I’ve been playing with just splining during my free time (not as much as I want to, but as much as I can).

However I can continue wishing I had a V6 in my Civic. How is that going to hurt Honda?

If you constantly preach the shortcomings of a product to the public, they may not have wanted a V6, but might start thinking, “Yeah! A v6 would be nice…everyone ELSE has a v6!”. Wanting a V6, versus talking to an audience of thousands about a V6 not being possible with a Honda is very different. But the purpose for going with not having a V6 might be that it uses gas more economically and is more environmentally friendly.
But then again, I disagree with the analogy. As others have said, its the artist, not the tool (within reason). I’ve seen people do fantastic things with AM quite efficiently (again, Haruwo is pretty amazing to me). I haven’t encountered anything that would be an obstacle to me yet. To me, each of these products can do what 99% of their users want. As I said, I have many other products that cost alot more. I keep coming back to AM due to its efficiency.

A:M is just like that. I wish I can get my Poly’s in their but can’t. I can go for the Jetta, but will not have all my bells and whistles.

If you want polys, that’s understandable. But is the only reason because of speed? I’m only disagreeing with a time component. If you PREFER the feel of poly-modelling, that’s a different issue and entirely up to an individual’s taste.

Either way I do have a good car, just wish for the extra speed. So either way I have a good program but will always be left wanting, just with any product.

That’s true, and I agree with that. Its that wanting that allows us to create demand for product upgrades and such. And if you want XSI or something, that’s an individual choice. The only disagreement I have is between splines and polygons have a speed advantage in terms of creation. I could see how a polygon modeller might create a human quicker. But I don’t see it as being a HUGE amount of time saved. I see some incremental time saved here and there, but its dissolved with the ease of animation and other features AM comes with.

I mean a leg, arm, or even a torso could be relatively quick. Create a circle of splines (box for box-modelling), extrude a few times to ensure enough push/pull (control) points, and then adjust accordingly.

I think where the mastery comes in (in both cases) is ensuring a low poly/spline count, and something that will animate well. That’s something that get’s difficult. But I’m not there yet.

I look forward to your response,
lafnjack

#2

Amen to that argument.:applause:

Still, I believe when it comes to detailing your models, its faster to smooth- shift/extrude/bevel/knife with polys than in splines. No need to disconnect/connect which is in the case of splines.

This, in my experience, has speed up my modeling far better in polys than in splines. It would take me days to get the model I want in splines while I can get it in a few hours (possibly minutes) in polys.

 Again, its all about preference. And I do prefer polys ( SubD) more than splines.:thumbsup:
#3

I guess it really comes down to, do you like to draw or sculpt. Poly’s and Splines are media.

Splines are more like Pencil and pen. I guess the concept is hard for me cause I feel more comfortable with Clay than I do pencil.

I suck a perspective. Don’t have to worry about that much with clay. So I guess I prefer the more claylike approach.

Plus I’m working on a big project and was not finding the help I needed in the Spline community, and that really limited my talent pool due to no polys

That is really my only beef with the program, but that is a beef of a lot of folks. There are 100s of Convert this to A:M.

Everyone wants to animate with A:M but not particularly model with it.

When I do comment I do try to give the strong points and bad points and how I truly feel.

but I’m giving up on that currently. I think the less I worry about it and just model the more I’ll get done.

I would love to see you do a WINK tutorial on modelling, maybe I could get to grips with Spline modelling. I’d like to see what I’m doing wrong. I wish there were more modelling videos like you can find for Poly modelling. I’d love to see some spline modelling videos!!!
That would rock, maybe that would teach us who don’t know how to model as well or fast with a chance to really get it.

#4

Splines are more like Pencil and pen. I guess the concept is hard for me cause I feel more comfortable with Clay than I do pencil.

I do as well. My sculpture tends to look better than my drawings, as I don’t need to worry about lightsource, perspective, etc.

I suck a perspective. Don’t have to worry about that much with clay. So I guess I prefer the more claylike approach.

But couldn’t you use something similar to this with a high spline mesh? Draw a half-circle with a ton of control points. Set the lathe option to 64. Lathe. Now you essentially have a clay-ball. The problem of course, is that animation then becomes difficult, because like a hi-poly count figure, there’s slowdown and I’m not sure how the wrinkles/creases would be handled. Low polys and splines get tricky in any app, I’d assume.

Plus I’m working on a big project and was not finding the help I needed in the Spline community, and that really limited my talent pool due to no polys

Help in terms of advice, or manpower? If its manpower, have you put feelers out in the poly community to see if there’s takers there?

That is really my only beef with the program, but that is a beef of a lot of folks. There are 100s of Convert this to A:M.

True…and vice versa. However splines are being introduced in other programs, more and more. I believe Kurv Studios has a Lightwave lesson that’s specific to splining:
http://www.kurvstudios.com/lightwave/spline_modeling.php
And many people who come from production environments start heading towards AM due to its capabilities, for personal use, enjoyment and expression.
Also, E-Frontier’s Shade is a Japanese tool that is one of the more popular programs in Japan. That’s all bezier curves and spline modelling stuff. Although its VERY new here, its got a solid Japanese user base.

Everyone wants to animate with A:M but not particularly model with it.

Its possible. I don’t have statistics. However, AM’s monthly contests are in animations and stills. Alot of people are doing stills with AM.

When I do comment I do try to give the strong points and bad points and how I truly feel.

Absolutely. Its an open forum and NOTHING wrong with that. I’m just replying/discussing/playing devil’s advocate. Infact, I am not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying I disagree…

I would love to see you do a WINK tutorial on modelling, maybe I could get to grips with Spline modelling. I’d like to see what I’m doing wrong. I wish there were more modelling videos like you can find for Poly modelling. I’d love to see some spline modelling videos!!!
That would rock, maybe that would teach us who don’t know how to model as well or fast with a chance to really get it.

I agree. I had issues with my spline technique for future animation. It wasn’t up to my standards. I purchased the Anzovin beginner bundle (its on its way! YEA! Next month I’ll get the TSM2!). I also will be purchasing some more of the training videos they have at hash.com. I have 1 set that was pretty good. I am also consistently going through the modelling tutorials they have to familiarize myself with the splining lay-out. I post stupid questions (why spline this way?), and get a little smarter each time.
And although its not about modelling, I highly recommend Jeff Lew’s animation tutorial. VERY cool. Cool Cool Cool!
Unfortunately, like you, my time is limited. A tutorial is not possible (if I was single, it wouldn’t be a problem). However, the process I used for a face is what the online tutorials mention (there’s a bunch at Sherwood Forest and the links at the AM site).

  1. Open a modeller window.
  2. Open a New Window. Tile vertically. Set 1 view as a front view (number pad 2), set one view as a left-side view (number pad 4). Some people have 4 different views…Ummm…it clutters the screen too much for me.
  3. On the left side view, draw the profile of a face. Extrude it twice (we’re only working on HALF the face, we can double it when we’re done…).
  4. Draw an eye hole. Extrude it 3-5 times to make the eye (eyelids, eyesocket area) hole.
  5. Draw a half mouth. Extrude it twice to make the lips.
  6. Rotate often to ensure it looks good from all angles, then go back to appropriate view.
  7. Start connecting up and putting down splines as needed. Push and pull away. Look at the wire-frame/shaded view to ensure I’m not making HOLES or bumps (I don’t want pock-marks on my mesh’s face…I’m not modelling a kid going through puberty). If I am, cuss a little :), and fix it.
  8. Right-mouse click and “Flip/Copy/Attach”.

My meshes aren’t elegant enough yet. Too spline heavy and the mesh looks sloppy (although the render looks good). I know I could reduce them.

If you’re staying with AM and feel frustrated, I recommend watching that online video tutorial they have that gives an overview on AM on their site. Man, that pumps me up. I watch it alot. It has lots of things done by other users in it, and shows how intuitive AM is. Not alot of modelling stuff, but VERY cool video.

I’ll let you know about the Anzovin stuff when it comes (I got the beginner bundle). I can’t comment on it, other than I’ve heard great stuff about it. It includes a disk on modelling the face too. I’m sure it will be good.

I also have the 2002 Siggraph videos from Hash. The one on “Articulated Machines” was VERY WELL done on using splines. GREAT training video. I’m definitely jumping on the latest one with the gorilla modelling in it, when I get some cash.

I wish you endless luck and success Flog,
lafnjack

PS: Shadowfork, thanks for your reply. Unforunately my knowledge of sub-d modelling is limited at this point. Maybe in the future I’ll invest some time in it and try to race myself so I can back up what I say with benchmarks. With my limited knowledge, I can only comment on what little I’ve experienced. I can only say that I’m completing models in a reasonable amount of time, once I buckled down to learn splining. I’m giving myself until the end of this month to focus on JUST splining, before I continue on. I know BOTH have their place, otherwise there wouldn’t be so many applications doing both.

#5

Funny thing I experienced when I model in splines is before you even put a single point on the screen, you should at least have a finish image of the object in your mind.

If I wanted to add detail later I’m like: “Oh crud, I should’ve connected this point here rather than here so I can accomodate this detail that has just popped up on my mind”.

Its always been easy for me to draw my object in pen and paper before I model in the computer (sometimes I draw in splines right away and use it as a template). I check how the patch loops and where I need to put five point patch and stuff.

When modeling in spline, one must reach a point of zen – something I find hard to explain among spline modelers. But basically its just finishing the model in your head before you model it on the pc.

Cheers.

#6

The saying goes: Paper is cheap

this is true wether you are talking about character design or storyboards

-David

#7

That is really my only beef with the program, but that is a beef of a lot of folks. There are 100s of Convert this to A:M.

True…and vice versa. However splines are being introduced in other programs, more and more. I believe Kurv Studios has a Lightwave lesson that’s specific to splining:
http://www.kurvstudios.com/lightwav…ne_modeling.php
And many people who come from production environments start heading towards AM due to its capabilities, for personal use, enjoyment and expression.
Also, E-Frontier’s Shade is a Japanese tool that is one of the more popular programs in Japan. That’s all bezier curves and spline modelling stuff. Although its VERY new here, its got a solid Japanese user base.

Everyone wants to animate with A:M but not particularly model with it.

That is the key though, other programs are introducing Spline based modelling to try to give their users more options. They are poly programs but are introducing splines to include everyone in their program. Options. A:M guys basically tell you to deal with it. Which is cool, it is their program after all.

Help in terms of advice, or manpower? If its manpower, have you put feelers out in the poly community to see if there’s takers there?

Yeah and I have found some greats.

I have to tell you man your pretty open minded and cool. I hope you keep posting on this forum and we would love to see some of your work.

Keep Hashing!! or better yet, keep creating and learning!! Well I"m off to actually get to work on my project and really hit it hard.

I’m going to start modelling and see how far I get.
I can’t wait to see your A:M projects and just to let you know, those guys have been really good to me as well.

#8

Hrmn, I’ve always thought a good analogy was between raster and vector based imagery.

You can rasterise an illustrator peice and operate on it in photoshop, but you have to trace things out to get it back into illustrator. This is a fact that designers and artists have happily lived with for years. Vector art has its advantages and disadvantages (It looks crisp and clean, can render at any resolution) as does raster art (can add detail and subtle variations of tone quickly and easily, can easily work with photography). In addition, vector images animate well in flash or flash-like programs, though raster images can be animated to a great degree as well-- it just looks different.

This analogy transfers seamlessly to the relationship between poly and spline, and the relationship is pretty direct considering that A:M splines use exactly the same math as the bezier curves in illustrator. (though applied to 3 dimensions rather than 2)

You can export artwork out of A:M to poly programs just fine (though at a lower fidelity than you get inside A:M) but getting poly programs inside A:M requires tracing, or tweaking. Splining has its advantages and disadvantages: It’s easier to animate, and you can quantize bezier patches to any number of polys (though most patch programs don’t allow unlimited poly quantization). Poly modelling of course has similar advantages to raster based imaging. If you’re trying to come to terms with the relationships between these two modelling dichotomies, flog, just look at how people deal with the disparity between vector and raster art. Play to the strengths of each. Does your film need the detail and fidelity of polys? or would it do better with the improved animation of which splines are capable.

Though as a side note, an employee of pixar told me years ago that toy story was done using bezier patches (like a:m has). but they switched to SubD surfaces for toystory 2. Remodelled all the characters in SubD’s. Can’t say why, can only guess.

#9

I just thought this was funny

http://www.c4dportal.com/portal/forum/showthread.php?t=66

Cinema 4d have poly tools and want spline tools

A:M users have spline tools and want poly tools.

I just thought it was funny.

#10 
 --- there's just no way to keep everyone happy eh?
 Unless they make a package called "[b]3DStudioMayaWave4DHash|XSI[/b]"
 
 (Imagine that, all developers in one roof - hahahahaha :twisted: )
  • but I’m sure even if this ultimate package is made there will still be whiners, wishlists and whatnot that will continue to be requested.
#11

I’m sure it’s possible with polys, but I find patches great for re-using parts of old models. If you have say an eye in a previous model you want to put into a model you’re building now, you can just stitch it in…takes about two minutes. And your eye is done.

Poly mesh being so much more dense seems to indicate it would take longer to do.

#12

What do you guys feel about the “mirror” function in Hash?

Coz I like to quickly turn my mirrors on and off (i use instancing in silo).

I find mirroring in A:M hair raising. Any tips?

I want to delete the other half and work only in one half after I’m done checking the mirror. Most of the time I had to clean splines in the middle after I deleted the other half.

#13

Mirroring in other apps is probably abit easier, but in AM there are easy workarounds to speed things up.

  1. AM can’t make geomety after the mirror operation. So, make sure you have all your geometry in place before mirroring.

  2. To avoid having to clean up all those splines when going back to only one half…Instead of deleting one side, copy the side you want to keep. Then delete the whole model and paste back the good side. No extra splines to clean up. Obviously save before doing all this.

#14

Try copy/pasting the side you have changed and delete the rest. If you have bones in there then you can paste with bones. [Edit - ken, you are too fast for me :slight_smile: ]

Another way to do it is to use a copied instance in a chor. which has been -X scaled. You can either model in the choriography, or, if you find that combersome you could just use the choriography to check progress.

Of course, you don’t see the curvature on the seem with the instance method.

#15

Sweet. Thanks JohnK and KenH. I think I’ll go with KenH’s #2 method. I’ll keep the half somewhere else then mirror on a separate model. I probably need to save to avoid the crash.

#16

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