Siggraph is here... what about R25 news?

#1

So Siggraph 2021 has begun, and for the past 10 years or so, it usually meant a new C4D version announcement…

This time around, I see nothing. Am I missing something?

#2

I didn’t even know SIGGRAPH had started and I keep an eye on the CG news outlets!

To be honest I’m not expecting that much from R25. Probably more nodal stuff plus extra features I’ll never use,

#3

I was as well surpised that there wasn’t an announcement yet (typically it was around the second day of Siggraph if I remember correctly), but a look at https://www.3dmotionshow.com/ let’s me believe they will announce R25 on August 18th or September 14th.

The nodes and the core rewrite are good developments in my opinion, it is just painfull how long it takes. And refining a feature that is coined experimental in each release isn’t really a feature at all. But without an Indie license it is all meaningless to me and just a theoretical discussion :-/
But maybe R25 comes with an affordable version and a good rendering option (either Redshift or via Hydra delegates)… but I have my doubts

#4

Having an easy to use, drag and drop, full object manager replacement based on the nodal backend would be a nice feature for performance only.

This and having a decent modern renderer out of the box is the bare minimum I would expect to renew my perpetual license or add a subscription (eg: a 1 gpu Redshift or whatever)

A better boolean workflow like Boxcutter or NitroBoxtool for hardsurface modeling would be great too.

Improved hair, cloth, particles and dynamics thanks to the nodal core wouldn’t be bad either (especially now that Xparticles has gone subs only too and is still quite expensive).

They hired a sculpting expert with Forger, so I guess anything about painting and sculpting would be nice, but I’m not really a sculptor anyway.

Improved viewport renderer: They made improvements, but this is no eevee o U-render. With the release of datasmith, I’ve been using Unreal Engine more and more and realtime is awsome.

I guess I’ll see it when it releases in september (if there is still a perpetual option, which isn’t guaranteed at all if one looks at Redshift).

#5

My bet is that Thinking Particles gets replaced. Something motivated Insydium to bundle everything so I expect Maxon has finally managed to produce a new particle engine.

For the whole of C4D to run on the new scene graph each feature will have to be retooled and many will end up being coded from scratch e.g. the archaic cloth system will be rewritten from scratch. It’ll be a many year project.

Perpetual licenses will be discontinued but it’ll be sold as a benefit to the end user. I saw the 30+ pages in the Redshift forum where going to subscriptions was presented as a benefit to the user so I don’t think it’s a great stretch to imagine the same thig happening to C4D. The Redshift users didn’t take it so well which is an understatement…

This new CEO appears to be milking the users for all they’re worth so would anyone really expect Redshift to be given away free with C4D? At best if this happened it would be licensed for 1 GPU so serious users would still have to get a subscription on top of their C4D subs.

Anyway, it’s nice to see newly ex Maxon staff getting into discussions on B* Devtalk forum. I just get the feeling the tectonic plates of this industry are moving and I can’t help thinking subscriptions is driving it.

@EricM Can you not export USD out of C4D into UE? What are the limitations of this workflow?

#6

Before datasmith, exporting anything from C4D to unreal was a massive pain : smoothing groups were not recognized and the order in which you had to have your materials and multiple UVs was very twitchy, unlike with Unity were it was basically transparent (that’s why I used Unity for all my real time applications).

With datasmith in UE, now it’s seamless. You don’t even need to export to FBX. Just save it (with melange/or cineware ticked) and open your native C4D file in Unreal.

All materials are imported and applied, smoothing groups are taken care of, animation, camera and lights are supported.

Most importantly, even cloners, instances and mograph animations are recognized and treated accordingly (baked or converted to UE instances etc…)

Any change in the original file and you just need to one click to refresh in the scene without losing your previous work in UE.

It really is a game changer.

Going USD or FBX still requires translating/converting/duplicating the scene.

#7

Do you happen to know which end the limitation is caused by, C4D USD export or UE’s import?

Can you export USD from C4D and re-import it with all mograph animation intact? I know the animation will be baked etc but can you use it for caching scenes? The Alembic exporter never worked reliably to cache out mograph, does USD work better?

#8

To be fair, since datasmith is working so well with native C4D files now, I haven’t pushed any other investigation regarding an alternative way to import stuff in Unreal.

For all I know, USD could work very well too at the time we speak, but that would still add an extra step to export the C4D file to USD (which isn’t possible in R21), so it wouldn’t be as seamless anyway.

#9

Ah OK, so you don’t have an up to date C4D with USD. No worries, I was just interested in the USD workflow into UE.

#10

sort of a side note on this topic - is there much difference between UE4 and UE5 in regards to C4D?

I have never used either but am thinking about diving in and was wondering if it would make sense to just start with UE5 as it is, knowing I won’t be doing any production for a while so not a prob if it is buggy.

#11

The writing is on the wall: perpetual licenses will disappear. They are already gone in fact: the price that Maxon charges loyal customers is a rip off compared to the MSA and I do not even get access to cineversity. Maxon has made everything possible to deter perpetual license owners.
R25 will most likely be announced in sept during Mc Gavran’s speech, as indicated on the 3Dmotionshow page. Most likely will they bundle redshift with C4D as a default but the subscription price will go up. Perpetual license owners will probably not get access to redshift unless they rent it on top of their C4d perpetual license. This is what I would do if I were maxon and if I were trying to convert everybody to subscriptions.
Features: I’m sure they will again come up with something nobody ever thought they needed and label it as « future ready ». They will again change the UI and make it a bit worse like every release for the last 3 years (to update C4d you now need a stupid maxon app. Totally silly. The help function is also less snappy). Stability will also probably take another hit as they keep rewriting the core and introducing new bugs.
I’m honestly bitter and no longer feel excited about maxon’s announcements or C4d’s future. They are progressively turning the program into Adobe garbage with lower responsiveness, bugs and the lack of critical features (useless default render engine, outdated and confusing multi material system…).

#12

sort of a side note on this topic - is there much difference between UE4 and UE5 in regards to C4D?

I have never used either but am thinking about diving in and was wondering if it would make sense to just start with UE5 as it is, knowing I won’t be doing any production for a while so not a prob if it is buggy.

As far as I can tell from a quick test, it works the same in UE5: C4D files import fine once you enable the datasmith plugin. I don’t know how stable it is however.

#13

This is a genuine question, at what point do you say enough is enough?

#14

I ‘m already past this point. I won’t buy upgrades and won’t switch to subscription. R22 is my last license.
Maya indie does everything I need as far as modeling. I’m learning Houdini aside for simple particle effects. And I have an octane subscription for rendering. Redshift is just too convoluted and not photo realistic. I have Zbrush for basic sculpting.
And guess what: all this costs me less than C4D+redshift.

#15

That’s good. I could see the frustration and I was just going to say not to fear moving on but you already have so that’s good.

Reading the Redshift thread on the removal of perpetual licenses I’m convinced the same announcement will be made to C4D users in the coming weeks.

From Nemetschek’s 2020 Financial report, "The strategic objective is to increase visibility and predictability with the successive increase in recurring revenues from rental models, while stillmaintaining close customer contact and increasing customer satisfaction.’ < Last part is laughable.

50% of Maxon revenue in 2020 came from subs. Increase the visibility and predictability is code for market the heck out of subs and then give the user only one choice, subs. Who would bet against the 2024 annual report showing 100% will be from Subs?

Maxon’s revenue was 55 Million Euros in 2020. Do you think you get good value for money when you compare the Blender development fund is currently bringing in 1.7 Million Euros/year? Imagine if Blender had the revenue of Maxon.

Call me cynical but C4D doesn’t feel 25x better than B*.

#16

Very interesting, I actually tried to get hold of their latest financial report yesterday to have a look at their P&L. I’m not surprised that nemetschek is pulling the strings. From what I remember their profit margin is insanely high, around 20%.
Subscriptions are the new paradigm for software companies. I’m just not for for this model.

#17

Subscription are definitely being driven by Maxon. In the report other areas of the Nemetschek portfolio said they were committed to continue offering customers a choice of license types.

Here’s a link to the data. In the 2020 report you can find out the eye-watering money was paid for Red Giant and Redshift. Someone has to pay for those acquisitions and it isn’t going to be Nemetschek.
https://ir.nemetschek.com/websites/nemetschek/English/2200/financial-reports.html

Maxon has already creamed 31 Million for the half year already and C4D still doesn’t ship with a modern production quality renderer. It’s a simple trick, artificially cripple your own software and then offer the solution as a premium extra. The 2020 report notes bundle offers have been successful, well wadaya know…

#18

I read the whole report, many thanks. Their rental model clearly works as they recruit new customers and they pressure them to buy their expensive bundles so no wonder organic growth is up +19%. What the report does not say is how many loyal customers were lost in this process. The new ones may also be more volatile than the old ones.
I also liked the section about risks/opportunities.
They claim that maxon is independent from the industry. In other words and if I understood this well, they don’t think that there is any competition in 3D motion graphics. C4d is the king.

#19

The calculation that the number of loyal customers you piss off compared to the new Johnny come lately you can attract has filled the shareholder’s pockets. On the Redshift forum thread users were asking for recognition of their loyalty but that’s not good for business in 2021.

If anyone is under any illusion how big corporations see their customers (cash cows) then you should read a financial report or two. As soon as organic growth hits its peak then watch as the rental price gets hiked. Shareholders get used to certain levels of profiteering and if they aren’t getting from growth then they’ll expect it from price increases.

I read that same phrase and came to the conclusion that I didn’t understand what they meant because they surely aren’t that arrogant to think they’re King Shit of the industry. If Maxon really does think its completely insulated from the industry then this could be a huge case of pride before a fall.

C4D despite being ridiculously dated in so many areas still has a cachet amongst a certain audience but mindshare can be lost quickly, high end Mograph unquestionably has already been lost to Houdini. There was a time my Vimeo feed was filled with the very best pushing the boundary examples of Mograph created in C4D, now that has changed, it’s Houdini that fills my feed. I’m confident we’ll see another 3D application enter the Mograph space that will steal Maxon’s lunch sooner rather than later.

#20

Thanks for this link. I was always curious. For anyone interested here is the info (from the 2019 report).

Redshift was bought for 27.9 Million EUR plus an additional 7.2 Million EUR depending if they reach their earning targets.

Red Giant was bought for 71.2 million EUR cash and the former owners also got 16% of the shares in Maxon. And it looks like they got a Bank loan of 30 Million in order to help finance the purchase of RedGiant.