I wanted to take a 1-2 years course in a 3D software and specialize in VFX in my country (France) and i was hesitating between maya, houdini and lightwave. But after lot of reading on internet, i decided to go for lightwave for it’s learning curve, and because it’s use and lot of films and series as i saw and their projects list (important if i want to get a job in the industry). But after testing the program for few months and after have seen some of the job made with it, i was worried about the final quality, not that i think it’s bad, far from it, but i often find lightwave VFX to look “cheaper” (much less realistic) than those made with maya and houdini. It looks much less realistic (in my opinion), but for its learning curve, the price etc. i first chose it.
So because i wanted to have some new opinions about that (maybe it was only in my head all that about “less realistic”), 2 days ago, i created an account on NewTek forum.
First, the thread of my title was changed by the administrator from “worried about lightwave VFX quality” to “wonder about lightwave”, so i find this ridiculous and weird to change my title, but anyway
Second, this morning, i saw that i had a lot of answers, including answers from people knowing very well the software, explaining that i’m right, that VFX quality is poorer than maya and houdini, but that it can produce faster so that’s the reason why etc. and that if i want to do realistic and high end cg & vfx, it was not the software made for me (i thgouht that, being on the official forum, everybody would tell me the product was nice etc. so i was pleased to see that people there were not like that).
The problem is that I come back few minutes ago, and by magic, the adminsitrator has deleted my thread (but has not with another that was probably not considered as a “menace” for lightwave reputation).
So i wanted to tell how disapointed i am by this company and that obviously, due to its atitude totaly unaceptable to delete thread where people is not telling “oh lightwave is so nice blabla” and to the fact that people on this same forum made me understand that if i wanted to do realistic (in a blockbuster sense) lightwave was not for me, i want take a lightwave course nor buy it.
Shame on NewTek behaviour. They should take some course about relations with potential customers and buyers.
Did you have a similar experience with this company?
I didn’t see the latest posts on your thread, but a thread can get deleted if posts are not constructive in their crits. There are plenty non happy critical posts on the Newtek forum that are not removed. The only ones I have noticed to get deleted are when they turn nasty and non-constructive. Same happens on this and most forums.
If you’ve read the thread, then you’re aware that the people who answered me was giving totally constructive answers. But for newtek non constructive seems to be anything that that is not “lightwave is perfect, lightwave is nice, lightwave is the software for everything” etc. (for my thread, they simply didn’t stand that some people have confessed that lightwave is not the product to use if we want to do realistic VFX (which i realized trying it before i made my question + through the customer showcase, but i needed other opinion of more advanced users to see if it was only in my head and i thought i could maybe start with the software and go later for more high-end one)
So for me, now, when i see how they are, it’s any software but this one (probably houdini or maya)
I’ve had several bad experiences with Newtek over the years since their version 5 of Lightwave. To be fair, I’ve had a few good experiences too. But this last fiasco with their CORE membership promises and the handling of the launch of version 11 left a very bad impression of where the company is heading. Basically, they seem to have dumped any longstanding customers who weren’t happy with paying for a brand new version after only one upgrade from version 10. For that reason, I parted with Newtek products, much as I enjoy working in Lightwave itself. I also had bad experiences on one of their forums when I asked for advice from one of their revered specialists who didn’t like the way my question was phrased. I got flamed by all his followers in very rude fashion. I check CGTalk and as many similar CG sites as I can for developments in the 3D industry. Especially, third-party developer products. Fairly or not, I see so much more interest in every other product on the market than for Lightwave that it gets discouraging trying to keep supporting a product that doesn’t strike me as able to keep up. In fact, there seems to be hotter interest and user participation for Blender, a free 3D graphics product, than for Lightwave. So, don’t feel alone in your disappointment. I’ve spent quite a bit of money on the product already. You’re at the beginning of your decision-making. I hope this is considered constructive criticism in it’s tone. I mean no disrespect. Only to share my individual experiences.
I agree, changing the title was rather idiotic. Perhaps if they had explained to you WHY they did so it would have been more palatable. Still… idiotic to change it.
I had read through that thread. As I recall, it wasn’t that LW could not really do realistic things, it was just limited in the things that it COULD do. You CAN get allot of good, realistic stuff out of LW, but if you want lots more you’ve got to take into account that Maya and Houdini (etc.) have MANY more developers than Newtek does for LW and they ARE used in the bulk of films. You really can’t expect the same quality between these packages. But I would have to disagree that LW does not render images that are realistic. Many studios have used the LW renderer in films.
Was it deleted or moved? If it was deleted, then that is bullcrap. During the last year or so Newtek has really become the stereotypical forum nazis removing lots of posts and threads it decrees “unsuitable.” But then again I think it depends on WHO is doing the editing - some administrators on the forum are FAR more tolerant than others. Still… if your thread was indeed deleted, it would not surprise me. Newtek has changed quite a bit over the last 18 months.
For the record, Newtek relations with customers has never been outstanding. They’ve never seen to have had a measured approach and their marketing has NEVER been very good. Their best marketing strategy was the time leading up to the CORE reveal - which unfortunately fell flat on its face by accidents. Still, it was a brilliant strategy and could have been perfect. Alas, IMO they have shot themselves in the foot - and that makes me VERY sad. IMO the only new customers that they end up with are those who don’t know the Lightwave-Newtek history of late and have just heard about LW. The price increase from $995 to $1495 won’t help them either.
There were plenty of constructive crits in the thread - along with a few others. That is still NO REASON for a thread deletion. Again, if it was in fact deleted and not moved, it was another BAD Newtek move - IMO of course.
This has been my position as well. Whoever came up with this “plan” of giving us LW10.1 and then immediately revealing LW11 shortly thereafter should be fired. It was stupid and lousy. IMO they hurt themselves FAR more with so much bad press from longtime users (such as myself) than they helped. I’ve supported them and CORE because I believed in Newtek - and they seriously let me down. The ironic thing is, I still use LW and probably will do so for years to come. I just don’t LIKE Newtek as a company any more. They betrayed me and my trust.
And I still enjoy using LW too. Sad to say that I used to be a fanboy on the forums. I know what you mean when people attack you for disagreeing with their viewpoint. But to be fair, it’s like that on every forum - even the Blender forum on occasion. No place is perfect and there will ALWAYS be the “religious software users” who don’t want anyone to crap on their software of choice.
Addition: I just wanted to add, even though there is the occasional attack on the Newtek forums, generally speaking it is a great community that is very willing to help and share. As critical as I am about Newtek and their practices, the LW community as a whole is quite incredible and is a wonderful resource.
Pity me. I’ve got more than ten licenses of LW and LOTS of expensive plugins and related materials. You can’t sell a copy of LW for over $200.
To the OP…
If you are looking to work in a studio, Maya or Houdini is THE best way to proceed - IMO. Lightwave is great for small studios and has been vcery cost-effective - and I may still use it for productions I have - but if I were just starting out I would use Softimage. Still… to defend LW just a little bit more - there is a great deal you CAN do with LW that will look spectacular. Also keep an eye on Modo. RUIN was modeled in Modo, animated in LW and rendered in Modo:
Thx for your comments DSW.
I actually hesitate between maya and houdini but i didn’t found a houdini course in Paris (france) and it’s like the desert of good tutorials for this software (and i like to work with video tutorial too). Maya has lot of tutorial, but as i saw, it’s getting abandonned for houdini.
About softimage, i don’tg et the difference between 3ds max and maya, it seems another 3d software inside the same company, and i saw it’s more used in broadcast (even if i saw that it was used in some transformers shots), and searching on internet, i didn’t see any vfx studio hiring upon softimage knowlegde (they all ask for maya)
Talking about that, i know they bought alias etc. but wouldn’t it be time to make just 1 “perfect” 3D software, instead of having 3 different with each pros and cons, but that can do exactly the same thing at the end?
Anyway, what i am a bit afraid is the learning curve of these 2 products that, as i’ve read, are horrible.
That’s why at first i wanted to go for lightwave before they made me change my mind with their behaviour, and also because, i want to do vfx from A to Z and it’s really not my purpose to specialize like maya users often do. I find it boring to specialize, and do a fordist process of VFX.
Concerning deletion, it actually was really deleted. I searched the threads i started by my username in the search menu, and all i found was the one i created in another category that was probably not considered as a menace by lightwave. So not moved, just simply deleted. It’s irrespectuous for the many people who was answering me and giving their point of view.
edit: about the realistic side of lightwave vfx, it’s because in showcase i never see anything realistic except specships like in serenity, that i asked, on newtek forums, for specific vfx shots that have been made with the software. There is so much projects in their list, but as you know, on a single movie, about every 3D software are used because so much studios work on it.
I don’t know, i have a bunch of bluray (almost every in their projects list), and lot of them are in lightwave projects list, so i’ll be curious to see what realistic vfx it can make, because except spaceships and tv series vfx (which are, hoenstly never really realistic ecept in heroes…but they were made with maya), i found it weird that lightwave don’t communicate about their specific work.
Look at houdini website, you can see the kind of vfx that have been made with houdini, for maya, same things (anyway it’s used for almost every blockbusters) but for lightwave they say “used in captain america, thor, iron man, star wars, star trek, avengers etc.” but why they never communicated about some examples of the shots made with their software? For cheap looking TV series vfx, they make video customers stories, but not for blockbusters that could make some of people go for their software.
Well you’re right, the learning curve for these other software apps is MUCH higher (from what I’ve seen) than LW is. I’ve heard good things about all of them - and bad things too. Look at the thread in the News section at the top about the new AutoDesk Suite - mostly complaints. The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side of the fence. Actually, the truth about that greener grass is… you look over the fence and you see only PATCHES of greener grass - some are large patches and some are small. You look back on your side of the fence and you see the same thing - patches of good grass and patches of weeds.
It all depends on how much time you want to invest. I’m sure that there are plenty of video tutes online for Maya, Max and Houdini - as well as Lightwave. To be honest, I never felt bad about learning LW and using it for my main app - until Newtek betrayed me with 10.1 and 11. Lightwave IS a good app - and you can spend a LONG time learning it because it CAN go very deep.
Yeah, as I said above, the learning curve for these other apps is not simple. But then again, if you want more powerful software, it's not gonna getr easier to learn it. :)
Well... then that was just BAD judgement on the part of Newtek. And not the last in a long line of bad judgment calls. I can't say I'm surprised. Heck, I was banned from there last year. And even my second screen name - one that was NEVER argumentative - was also banned and removed. I have no compassion for those who do such things.
Well yeah... LW does spaceships incredibly well. But then I look at TerraNova and think that LW is still pretty robust. I know some didn't like the VFX in TerraNova, but my wife and I thought they were fine and looked great. It really is amazing what you CAN do with LW in the hands of great artists. And "yeah" again... it's amazing when you really have no idea WHAT software was used in what show and WHERE it was used in specific shots. I think that's mainly because since AutoDesk owns most of the high-end software packages, they really don't want anyone to know that any other package was used. Heck, C4D was used in (I think) Dinosaur Park and that stuff looks really good IMO. I think that if LW was used it would look just as good. It really depends on the artist, more so than the software.
I still like LW and do believe it’s moving forward. I just wish they had keep CORE as it was and moved forward from there - THEN it would end up being in a FAR better position in the software industry. But then that’s my opinion and OBVIOUSLY not that of those in charge at Newtek. THEY are the ones that have raked me and others like me over the coals - without so much as an apology.
All I can say is good luck in whichever package you choose. If you DO choose LW, the community IS a good one and is generally very good at helping and sharing. Every now and then you get a turd in the pile, but more often than not it’s a great software community!
You write english just fine - FAR better than I would write in your language!
Not quite so simple, if you’ve ever tried sending an automated bug report. And sometimes confusing when you’re trying to get your online account updated by customer service. Like I said, I like the software enough to try and stick with it, but how I was handled as a client simply left me cold. There’s one guy in customer service who’s very helpful. His name escapes me right at the moment, but others have a like-it-or-leave-it attitude. Like I’m intruding on their day. I don’t deal well with that from ANY company. Not just Newtek.
You got it EXACTLY! Which means you know what I’ve been through with them over the last decade-and-a-half. I really am sorry this is how things are changing. I really used to love that software as a hobbyist. It seemed promising, at first, when big changes came about because I thought it meant they were going to fight to keep Lightwave alive! They’re doing it, but at the expense of some of us who’ve been on the trip with them for awhile. I still wish them well (I guess) but, had CORE customers who bought into the promises been handled tactfully, we’d all still be on board and wouldn’t have anything but glowing praise in forums. Hopefully, it’s not too late for Newtek to change our minds, if someone can get across to them that company prosperity isn’t always just about dazzling folks with technical advances and promos.
Yeah, I still really like LW, but Newtek “the company” just gives me a sour taste every time I think of them. And there really is no changing their minds, it is what it is. That’s one of the reasons I and several others were banned by Chuck at Newtek - we were always bringing up how unfair this treatment was. I won’t go over the details (yet again) but we got crap in LW10.1 and then we had to buy 11 to get what was already IN CORE. There were quite a few ways that they could have handled the situation - and even made money by doing so - but they CHOSE to go the route they did and ended up received quite a bit of bad publicity AND slapping many longtime users in the face. I was used to bad marketing and poor customer service - but outright mistreatment of customers, especially longtime supporters - was a COMPLETE shock to me.
There was a thread recently over at Newtek where several people offered options - but it’s HIGHLY doubtful that Newtek would do anything more. You figure they’ve already received so much bad press now that I guess they would figure WHY should we do anything now. The damage has already been done. Quite sad though, a pretty good program and yet those who make the final decisions - the management at the company - are incompetent. Th saddest thing is, they could have avoided ALL of this by simply being fair.
There are plenty of other avenues to explore if you have issues on a customer service level. This forum is for the exchange of technical information and problem solving.
