R23 and cinebench 23


The state of the world? We’re screwed, no joke. Post-modern = Post-rational.

I’m just finding fun w/it, as in this case…I don’t care who wins. I don’t imagine we’ll have rioters burning cities down over the results.


I have ZERO idea if this is valid, but here you go for Cinebench score:

My guess was 6500…so (if true) I under-estimated 15%.

Single-core comparison:
Ryzen 7 5800: 1604
Apple M1: 1498
Ryzen 3900x: 1252
Intel i7 4900k: 1096

Remember folks…the M1 only has 4 real cores…It isn’t going to compete well with modern 8 and 16 core machines. But then it’s not really trying to. This hardware is designed for sub-compacts, and for ultra-power-efficiency.

The 4 “Ice” cores combined are about equivalent to 1 of the “Fire” cores. So while technically the M1 is “8-core” you can think of it’s peak as similar to 5 core. It’s Multi-core test score mathematically bears this out.

For what it is–an ultra-low-electrity mobile chip–this is INSANELY impressive. But don’t forget what it is.


I don’t use my MacBook Pro for 3d but was just curious how it would compare.

2016 Top-of-line 15" MacBook Pro i7-6700HQ CPU…3184
2220 Entry-level 13" MacBook Pro w/Apple M1…7508

The Intel chips in laptops are notorious for throttling, and I definitely noticed this during test. After two minutes temps hit 99 degree C…then dropped to 80C…as rendering slowed.

Thermals w/ARM processors are in another league compared to x86.

Now…the Mac folk should also me mindful…
I also compared my 18 month old budget Ryzen in CB23. Nearly a dead heat.

AMD Ryzen 5 2600 6-core…previous gen approx $170 chip…7220
2220 Entry-level 13" MacBook Pro w/Apple M1…7508

Finally, a word to Fluff: What you don’t appreciate, my friend, is how big a deal it is when Apple can tune it’s own software and APIs to it’s own hardware. Final Cut Pro, Logic, Video rendering and compression are insanely fast on M1. For battery life, portability, comfort and saving the planet…it’s a win. As for 3d…we kinda agree.


The story is going to get more exciting for Apple users when they start bringing out more powerful chips, presumably next year, and also chuck some of those in a Mac Mini as well. I’m assuming their bigger MacBook Pro and their iMac etc won’t be stuck with only 16GB RAM. Like IceCaveMan says though the speed and efficiency of stuff like Final Cut just on this notebook chip is incredible.


Apple Silicon Macs could be 3, 4 or 5 times faster than the fastest x86 chip in history and you couldn’t pay me to use it.

Apple Silicon Macs running Big Sur record send the following information to Apple,

Date, Time, Computer, ISP, City, State, Application Hash

Apple logs where you are, and what you’re doing and when you’re doing it all of the time and the best part it sends this information unencrypted so anyone else snooping in or accessing these data will know more about you than you do. It cannot be stopped even with VPN as the OS circumvents even VPNs from functioning fully. Applications can be prevented from running at will for whatever reason Apple decides. Think about that. Apple is a fully signed up member of PRISM.

It turns out Microsoft is actually less shady than Apple these days. What a turn around.

We’ve had to listen to years and years of Apple being sanctimonious about the importance of privacy and they’re doing this secretly in the background of their new OS. It only came to light when a server slowed which stopped applications from running last week which exposed the practice to security experts. If the server had failed we would’ve been none the wiser as there is a ‘fail-fast’ code path that would’ve kicked in and applications would’ve loaded as if offline.

Then there’s the T2 chip which will prevent you taking your Mac to a 3rd party repair centre to get it fixed because Apple now serialises components so the T2 chip will prevent booting of 3rd party repaired Macs.

I expect the Apple Silicon Macs to be tremendously powerful but like having an Alexa in the house, over my dead body.

Congratulations are in order, Redshift now allows Mac users to render like it’s 2015 again! That turned out to be not worth the wait.


This has unexpectedly made my morning and I now like the M1 chip even more! :joy:



Extremely valid concerns.
-Edward Snowden risked his life in hopes that the essential right of Human Privacy be maintained. Then we have idiot losers who can’t even give a damn about this vital human right. They really are illiterate or pathetic…or both. I would never choose to be a friend or an associate with a person who doesn’t value that right…or free speech, freedom of religion, etc.

I will assume that Sartana’s comment was merely a snarky gest at you because of some past exchange.

-While not at the same level, “Right to Repair” laws have fortunately gained traction in some states…and in EU.


Who knows what goes on in some people’s minds but there will be brand fanatics who’ll happily pass this off as a positive thing.

Apparently Apple has responded and claim everything is fine it’s just their gatekeeper that prevents malware running on your Mac. It may well be the case but Big Tech in general are very clever at obfuscating their true intentions and all that location and usage data is unbelievably valuable in their hands. If these data are collected are just for malware prevention then what purpose does the location data serve? Why can these features be turned off on Intel Macs and not on Apple Silicon Macs? Apple claims they’ll now allow this data stream to be turned off and encrypted but can you trust them?

I’m neither a terrorist nor a pervert so what have I got to worry about? We don’t know what he have to worry about until it happens in the future, the most obvious situation is the insurance industry getting hold of these data and making premiums unaffordable. What happens if you’re no longer deemed ‘woke’ enough to use a particular service? What if your scientifically correct view of the world is in contradiction with the progressively more ‘woke’ and irrational society which is over represented in Silicon Valley which can all be inferred by your usage data and metadata? What happens when you’re locked out of services for no apparent reason? Think it won’t happen?

I’m neither a Mac fanboy nor an Apple hater, I built a business using Macs and would do so again if I could trust Apple but I just don’t. I think these ARM based Macs are going to be fantastic, I said that long before the benchmarks were known. It’s everything Apple has been working towards with heterogeneous computing since they brought OpenCL into the world but now they’ve got a platform that will benefit this architecture. These Macs will change computing like the iPhone changed phones that I have absolutely no doubt and Apple will have a technical edge for a while.

But if anyone thinks AMD and Intel won’t respond they’re delusional. Already what is known of AMD’s 5nm CPU platform presents a step change again in terms of raw performance and performance per Watt from even from the Intel crushing Zen3. Same again when AMD and nVidia GPUs get onto 5nm with PCIe 5. In 12 short months the landscape will look very different from now as AMD and nVidia move to chiplet architecture for GPUs.

Can Apple translate outstanding laptop performance to class leading performance in the workstation space? Anyone serious about 3d isn’t really interested in laptops they want to know about workstation grade CPU and GPU performance. Can Apple scale up their SOCs or use multiple SOCs or do they no longer care for the very highest end? It’ll be interesting to see.

I’ve moved my operation to Linux, Houdini, Resolve and Fusion and while it has a decent learning curve in the beginning it really does make your PC work so much better, it’s an instant performance upgrade in many respects. If you’re a PC user and value your privacy then it’s worth considering and also putting pressure on companies who don’t provide Linux versions to do so. There are so many really good distributions that look and feel like MacOS that you can have the Mac experience without the snooping.


Apple has a remarkable history in respecting customers privacy, anyway, here are some facts that comes from a respectable source: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/11/mac-certificate-check-stokes-fears-apple-logs-every-app-you-run/
“The larger point was that, in most respects, the data collection by ocsp.apple.com wasn’t much different from the information that already gets transmitted in real time through OCSP every time we visit a website”

And here is a clear answer from Apple itself:
“Gatekeeper performs online checks to verify if an app contains known malware and whether the developer’s signing certificate is revoked. We have never combined data from these checks with information about Apple users or their devices. We do not use data from these checks to learn what individual users are launching or running on their devices.
Notarization checks if the app contains known malware using an encrypted connection that is resilient to server failures. These security checks have never included the user’s Apple ID or the identity of their device. To further protect privacy, we have stopped logging IP addresses associated with Developer ID certificate checks, and we will ensure that any collected IP addresses are removed from logs.”

If you are concerned about your privacy then go living in a desert island disconnected from civil world since anything we do today is tracked in some way, from the web, forums, social media, most messaging software (funnily Apple is one of the few that don’t leak your data: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/10/study-shows-which-messengers-leak-your-data-drain-your-battery-and-more/ ) and so on.

About the T2 stuff… you can get your Mac repaired by any authorized or non authorized center. Some special tools may be required for specific tasks but again any authorized center can get access to that, BTW as far as I know the only things requiring that tools are TouchID and FaceId in mobiles and any people with a basic intelligence will understand that this is for security and privacy reason. Get your info correctly before posting nonsense, the fact that Apple “can” decide to authorize some repairing tasks doesn’t mean that they are actively doing that.

About the concern about scaling processor performance to desktop system, I can’s see a reason why this should not be achieved, you can be 100% sure that Apple have working desktop processor in their laboratory right now, the biggest technology company in the world (fact) don’t switch to new stuff blindly.

About Intel and AMD regaining the best IPC/watt performance, that will eventually happen sooner or later but you can be sure that when AMD will have 5nm CPU Apple will have 3nm one, so it will take some time and of course even more for Intel. If and when that will happen Apple may decide to switch again to AMD, Intel or whatever they want like they have done many time in the past.

To be honest this is just one more attempt to bash Apple ecosystem, seems all of your post here on cgtalk are about bashing something after all. If you live your life hating something you will only damage yourself in the long run.

Thanks for thrashing yet another topic in silly Apple VS whatever war, while the topic was on R23 benchmark.


Can we keep this thread civil please? It’s an interesting discussion and I don’t want see it turn into yet another online fist fight.


In my day, apple/mac/amiga/atari/sinclair fights used to at least be about who had the most memory, highest screen resolutions and the most colours on screen at once… These days we have to factor in which company wants to sell your porn viewing history to Russia.


Why do people fall into this lazy stereotype so easily?

Tech companies aren’t selling data to Russia or China or any other non Western country because it’s far too valuable as a commodity. It’s not even your chronic onanism that the companies are interested in it’s you rather banal activities that you don’t give a second thought about that tells them more about you than you know about yourself. This forum will be measuring your attention span on advertisements as you scroll past them. Simple things you don’t even notice you’re doing.

The Tech giants regularly push the idea of anonymised data and maybe their dataset is anonymised but the problem comes when these data are combined with other anonymised datasets, an analogy a 3d artist will understand is the number of samples increases the fidelity of your render. Same thing happens with adding so-called anonymised datasets together, more samples equals a better rendering of the people contained in those data. Add a bit of AI and denoising and all of a sudden you’ve got an exceptionally clear picture of Dick Smith of Acacia Avenue.

I recently spoke to a data scientist about AI and this is being used heavily to connect datasets together, think of pre-crime but for marketing purposes. The more you know what they know the more you wish you didn’t know it. Don’t take my word for it there are some excellent security blogs around.

I’m happy for companies to have a slow noisy Physical render of me rather than a crystal clear physically accurate Octane render that’s being updated in real-time by giving up as little about me as possible.


The new AMD processors…the M1…whatever Intel does in response…Nvidia GPUs…all transcendent. Spiritual fulfillment is ours. Now.


Infograph earlier today :wink:


My comment earlier wasn’t so much about the privacy issue - and I’ve just read two articles confirming some, and debunking some, of what Info just wrote - and this is easily findable on Google - rather that these inflamed, shrill, deeply negative posts in an Apple thread on the C4D forum comes from a guy (and I apologise for assuming gender here Info) who perpetually acts as if Maxon, and now I gather Apple, had personally beaten up and viciously injured members of his family in front of his eyes before stealing his car and setting fire to his house. And that posting history leaves me with no choice but to take everything he says on any topic here with an absolutely massive grain of salt.

If things are as terrible with Maxon as he’s stated - andhe spent a good part of a season stating it - he would have long since moved on. That he hadn’t suggests either a vendetta, or malice to the readers of these threads. And neither makes me inclined to take much of what he says on any topic seriously when he returns.

IceCaveMan, even you’ve equitably moved on and regularly make thoughtful comments. But Info spent months burning a bridge, then drove back with a tanker full of fuel to reburn the ashes, and then spent weeks after that watching moodily from the hills before occasionally running down again with a baseball bat to thrash against the ground in a display of ape-like anger. And following this, I’m supposed to think he has a level-headed view of topics raised on this forum? Ha ha ha, don’t me laugh.

You get to read my message, Infograph, but I skip all your posts by default, buddy, so take as long as you want crafting a reply.


Oh man, maybe it’s my fault this thread went south, I came with the mac topic first,
my intention was just to say THANKS MAXON, as soon as I read “m1 support”.

Now I see it’s a whole service pack update, official list of improvements here:


Thanks again maxon!


Back to the Apple M1 as a technology (not Apple privacy/repair practices)

MBP13" specs

Single-core comparison:
Ryzen 7 5800: 1604
Apple M1: 1521 (updated)
Ryzen 3900x: 1252
Intel i7 4900k: 1096

If Apple wanted to I very much suspect they could build a high end $3,500 laptop that would truly crush everything in every way. It would look like this:
-12 of it’s “Firestorm” cores (instead of 4 in this month’s products or the 8 that one might project for next products)
-4 of it’s “Icestorm” efficiency cores (same as current products)
-Latest Discreet AMD or Nvidia GPU

It would still be light. And cool*. With great battery life. And yes, components do scale and would fit. The ARM chips are reportedly cheaper to produce once developed.

It would score a Cinebench score that would threaten 20,000…would thrash everything in productivity, video, imaging, sims…and would game like a king.

They could. But they won’t. It would cannibalize their top desktops and future upgrades. And while their M1 GPU might truly rank #1 as an integrated solution…it’s a huge jump from there to something that competes w/discreet AMD/Nvidia GPUs.

*Nvidia/AMD discreet GPU would take a toll on heat/battery life.


Other tech highlights:

–Starting off with an idle Mac mini in its default state while sitting idle when powered on, while connected via HDMI to a 2560p144 monitor, Wi-Fi 6 and a mouse and keyboard, we’re seeing total device power at 4.2 Watt.

–During average single-threaded workloads on the 3.2GHz Firestorm cores, such as GCC code compilation, we’re seeing device power go up to 10.5W with active power at around 6.3W.

–In multi-threaded scenarios, power highly depends on the workload. In memory-heavy workloads where the CPU utilisation isn’t as high, we’re seeing 18W active power, going up to around 22W in average workloads, and peaking around 27W in compute heavy workloads.


These are all crazy numbers…3x more efficient than Intel/AMD

I truly think that one reason AMD passed Intel is that they were working with constraints:
-We must ship a cheaper product
-We don’t have the same R&D budget
-We don’t have our own foundry

Elon Musk has changed the rocket industry as he’s always looked at constraints.
-We need a rocket that is 10 times cheaper
-We need a rocket that can land and be re-used

Constraints help human achievement…and Apple’s chip constraints over past decade…must be thin, light, mobile, low power…has helped them build a superior chipset.

All stop here…as I know this is tangential to Cinebench scores!


@Sultana you’re coming across as a little triggered if I may say so.

@3dMuff I’ve no idea what you’ve posted but as long as it made you happy that’s all that counts.


When you say superior do you mean not as fast and more expensive than AMD?

Shipping low power high performance CPUs is their comfort zone but can they ship CPU/GPU combos that can compete at the highest level? Personally I’d wait to declare Apple victorious until they ship hardware that can beat current Workstation hardware. or whatever level of hardware you personally are interested in.

Apple is believed to have a 16 core 64GB ARM chip ready but that’s still not high end. Can they produce it in volume and not at eye watering prices? It’ll be good, no doubt, but really high end no. My next workstation build which I’ve put off until AMD ships Zen3 Threadrippers and nVidia ships 7nm variants of Ampere will be 32 core, 256GB and 2 or 3 3090 equivalents. Apple won’t be shipping anything near as powerful as current gen tech let alone what will be available in a few months for a long time. Then, as I said before, the 5nm chips will be upon us quicker than ever.

Apple has demonstrated, low power high performance chips and I agree they are impressive for what they are. This does not translate into a win across the stack. It’s way too early for laps of honour.

Apple main seller is the Macbook Pro line so I would think most of their eggs will go in that basket. The iMac is a good seller but the iMac Pro and Mac Pro are rounding errors in terms of sales. How much enthusiasm and will is there at Apple for these product lines?