R21 in one month...we'll know


#423

I can understand that. Seems like there’s always one of those each release where it’s not sexy but some change in the approach will save certain people a bunch of time. Sort of analogous to the Takes thing when it arrived but less flashy, if that’s possible.

But I can also understand the people who look at that and say the prior implementation was very limited based on how the surface of the objects would break apart when the values were pushed, so it’s less a new feature than fixing what was limited?

To me this feature is what I meant yesterday by “a collection of JDIs” — useful maybe, but not really what you want to hang your hat on as motivation to get people to upgrade. Especially not with the licensing scheme change we got. To make most people comfortable with that you ideally would want a home run release with a number of big innovations as well as more modest feature enhancements like that one to make people at ease with changing to a new licensing system etc.

I guess we’ll wait for Rick’s responses at the end of the week. Hopefully we’ll get some clarity on exactly what MAXON’s plans are for release cadence going forward and things of that nature.


#424

It all depends on the end user. I spent the better part of 12 years as a C4D user. Moving over to Blender, pre-2.8 at that, wasn’t all that challenging. The fundamental concepts are the same. The techniques are transferable. Moving from C4D to Blender was more about figuring out what button got moved where.

If you’re already adept at one app and know your core concepts/techniques thoroughly, migration is relatively trivial. I’ve had to do it numerous times over the past 30 years. Not a big deal. You just have to take a deep breath and remember that the differences between one app and the next are mostly superficial. The big differences are often found in the fine print - special features and smaller quality of life stuff. Core functionality is more or less standardized in 2109.


#425

Having spent five or six hours (in my life, most of it today) in Blender I kinda agree. You have objects, points, edges and polys. The modeling tools are generally the same in principle. Materials are easy to grok. Rendering is the same. But I feel like a stroke victim trying to walk across the room, LOL. Struggling to remember the most basic shortcuts. Still even with just a half a day…I can see it coming.

I haven’t started in animation, but I’ve used so many different apps to animate, I’m not worried about tweening keyframes.

Where it will diverge a bit more is with Mography stuff.


#426

Here is my first render from Blender. Just trying to find my way around the program. How to work in component mode to do quick modeling, how to add SSD, how to add texture to material…where the render button is…

As most of you know an egg can be approximated with just with a cube, a displaced point or two and an SSD. Obviously design or refinement is far from the goal here.

I’ve used Blender <10 hours in my entire life. But that changes now.


#427

This just makes me very cross. We are being held hostage it’s as simple as that. Pay MAXON or your files won’t work. Aside from the fact that the creative endeavour and artistry within that file are nothing to do with Maxon. Yes they (MAXON) allow this to take place but its a two way street as far as I am concerned. Without artists you wouldn’t have a business model. Also the idea that Maxon has partners who can access the files, fails to mention the cost which is currently zero. I highly doubt this will be a free service but surprise me!

This is unlike Adobe Photoshop for instance. There are many free or cheap applications that can open a Photoshop file, but a C4D file authored in R21 will only be able to be worked on with a paid subscription. Of course After Effects without a sub would be un openable too, but how much do I pay for the Creative Suite. It’s a bargain in comparison for what is included.

The price of sub for the suite without Redshift would be AU$98.00 (by my calculation) per month for a total of AU$ 1176 for the year which is an increase to my current MSA which last invoice was AU$940 with 10% GST added which comes to AU$1,034.00!!! So that is not making it cheaper it’s a price rise as far as I can make out. And this isn’t the one with Redshift included. Also this is an upfront cost not a monthly bill, as per the website it says the cheaper annual options are billed annually not monthly.

In comparison Adobes Creative suite which includes 21 seperate apps and functionality is AU$76.99

To say I am cross is an understatement.


#428

Ah, this is an interesting argument. I remember that in the past, Maxon insiders like Srek told us that Maxon is listening to users, but the forum users are not representative of the user base by a wide margin. The “professional” users are most likely not found on a forum, so we rarely see their needs, or their opinions. But what’s in a release will reflect their requests a good deal, even if the forum users are left wondering.

Which took me down another path of thought…

Clearly, we must see Maxon as a big player in the motion graphics business. Nothing else. Used to be that Maxon was the underdog in the game, clawing its way up against big players like Maya, 3DS Max, Softimage, or later Houdini and (competitive newcomer) Modo. We old users remember that time, and think of it nostalgically.

At that time, users had trust in Maxon / C4D, and hope. They were emotionally invested and stoked against the big players which had cornered the market and made entry into the 3D world difficult with high prices (Maya was once five digits…) and difficult-to-use GUIs.

However, that time has passed. The high-end market has consolidated (…has been consolidated, forcefully, by Autodesk buying / discontinuing competitors), some players have made the wrong decision and all but disappeared or are struggling (LightWave), and Cinema4D has become a player itself. Partnering with Adobe was one step. Concentrating mostly on motion graphics was another, as now most applications have a focus (Houdini for F/X, Maya for character animation, and Cinema4D for… right, motion graphics).

Cinema4D is an underdog no more.

The entry level permanent options have eroded. The GO version in the old three-tiered version system (which I personally used to enter the C4D world after a frustrating bout with POVray) was abandoned for the sake of the module system, which was abandoned for the four-version system with Studio at the top, which now was abandoned for a single version on subscription. So, the designated way to enter the C4D ecosystem is now the subscription.

And yes, a subscription is probably not good for hobbyists and small-time users, getting locked into payment. But - these have flocked to Blender already, as it seems (or so we must assume). These are not the user base for Maxon. Maxon wants a nice entry level price for studios that are branching into motion graphics, or professional freelancers, or newly founded mograph businesses. Getting rid of that 3600 buck entry hurdle makes totally sense in that respect.

Those users are not worried about a lock-in by subscription either. They have a job to do. If the job is done, they move to the next. The job needs to be done effectively. They must always have a job. Always having a job easily pays for a subscription. Cinema4D is specialized in mograph and does that job. If you go bankrupt, or retire, or for other reasons give up that business, it doesn’t matter that you lose access to your files, as these were only there for the job, and are no longer needed anyway.

Welcome to the world of quarterly thinking and shareholder values - both on the side of Maxon, and on the side of the professional users.

This may be the reason too that the forum has (apparently) decreased in traffic and users. The pros are not here in force (yet). The old-time users - the enthusiasts - are seeing the development for what it is, and are leaving for greener pastures. (Or they went for a different focus and switched to Maya or Houdini to be professionals in those areas.)

The underdog now is Blender. Cinema4D cannot compete with a free application for enthusiast users, so it is logical to cut off that branch and concentrate on the core business. The content of the releases may not please the enthusiast, but they are not the target audience any more. From Maxon’s point of view, the development and future path, including the subscription, is a consequential step; and as past revenue shows, Maxon’s consequential steps pay off. Cinema4D has found its niche and audience.

It’s just not us.


#429

I can’t disagree with your commentary, Cairyn. We are throw-aways for Maxon at this point. And there is another dimension to it: the social/generational aspect.

Creatives aged 18-35 often don’t own a home or even a car. Many are buried in debt. They generally don’t think long term and think only in terms of the immediate month–it’s income and expenses. They usually prefer the expediency of a subscription.

Every business wants recurring revenue, where they have control. Those corporations less scrupulous have no hesitation jumping into predatory practices. They–the universities, cel-phone providers, lending institutions and dot.coms are eating these kids for breakfast.

(Don’t get me started about U.S. Universities and their co-conspirators, the student loan folks. It’s the biggest scam in history)

On a different and far sunnier note… I created my first Blender physics animation, rendered in/real-time w/Eevee. It’s bed time, though, so can’t post now.


#430

I download Blender 2.8 as well, along with the ProRender plugin. I’m going start learning it in earnest to see how it compares (certainly the end results are quite spectacular, so it’s a vey capable program).

I’m waiting to see what the subs offer is for long-term MSA users. If it’s another slap in the face, which I now expect, I’ll skip R21 then just start a new sub from R22 – or whichever update of C4D doesn’t suck. I’ve always used C4D for fun, but Maxon – or, more specifically, Adobe guy – has taken all the fun out of it. In one short and slightly crappy keynote he’s destroyed all the goodwill Maxon had built up with its users over the last two decades. I now feel as much loyalty to the company as it has shown to us: fuck all.


#431

I just received a receipt for my (last) MSA, at the same price as last year.

Totally unclear is what I would get for that if I paid it. (Send an email back asking for info).

I sort off made my mind up after a good night’s sleep. Bought probably my last plugin (Trypogen) for C4D yesterday from Pixel-lab. Trying to get comfortable with the idea I will not receive any updates anymore and at some point my favorite app of all time will break.


#432

God that’s heartbreaking. I hope McGavran is reading some of these sad posts and realises how painful this is for a lot of users.


#433

DM, I wouldn’t hold my breath w/Maxon at this point. They’ve shown their cards. The sooner we accept the situation and seize control of our own destinies…the better.

I hope to donate (repeatedly) to the Blender Foundation. Blender has 100-1 user count over c4d or Autodesk. If each user donated $20, or $200 (whatever) a year…Blender will crush all. They already are a MASSIVE headache for the big-dollar DCCs.

And Blender appeals to users old and young, rich and poor.

I was naive to think Maxon would somehow be more virtuous than the Autodesk wretches. I won’t make the mistake twice. Same ilk at the helm now.


#434

Hey Ice. Sorry about all this, man. I feel your pain and think we’re in a similar position/state of mind. If I hadn’t bought so many C4D plugins I’d jump ship immediately. I may still suck it up and just accept my subscription-based fate, but the damage has been done. At some point, me and C4D will have to part company, I think, for more affordable (Blender) waters. Curse McGavran and his filthy Adobe ways.


#435

I’ll let you all in on a little story.

Some time back there was a big revolt over at c4dCafe. 3DKiwi was trying to form an exodus to Modo. He was miffed at the lack of Maxon progress in some well-discussed areas. I believe he had registered the domain for ModoCafe and was ready for a new chapter.

I went to town defending c4d and tried beating down the critics. I was just sharing my honest opinions. A month or two later Paul Babb sends me a care packet with a thank you and some freebie stuff. Well of course he did. I was doing his work!

Haha.

I thought Maxon was the good, noble player!


#436

I used to have a license for Modo but it was so buggy and weird to work with, I switched to C4D. If Foundry has any sense it should run a side-grade offer, right now, for perpetual licenses.


#437

Don’t get me started! I’ve probably got 60 plugins or scripts or training packages–many of which I’ve paid for. Invested to the gills with my time and money.

Oh well…I’ll have c4d r20 for awhile anyway…until they find some (unethical) way to steal it away.

Glad to have some online buddies with which to commiserate.

Now seriously, Maxon has Blender beat in a number of areas. But in a lot of ways Blender flat kicks c4d’s ass. I think the future is Blender + Unity…or perhaps Blender + Unreal. Hey, throw in an affordable ZBrush or Houdini Indie license…it really isn’t close.

Perhaps we should be grateful for all this, nudging us to better options.


#438

Just got email back. If I extend my (last) MSA I get a perpetual C4D r21 license. Meaning it will keep working after the MSA expires.

  • r21 breaks all plugins again, I just started rebuilding my collection, again.
  • r21 has nothing I really need, caps on bevels…
  • I’m beyond disappointed and feel really hurt.
  • If I paid it would not change anything about my future with C4D.
  • I would be paying and supporting a company I no longer can appreciate.

I can’t find anything positive for me to extend my MSA for the last time. Is there?


#439

No. There’s no point. If you want to keep using C4D you may as well go rental Like I’ve said before, you can skip R21 and start a new sub whenever C4D has a release or upgrade that you like. The MSAs we’ve all paid for are pretty much worthless now. The best value is to skip a year, use R20 for ‘free’ (even though we’ve paid for it) then jump on board next year some time.

Adobe guy isn’t going to change his policies, so we have few options in the matter. At least skipping this update will show discontented users voting with their wallets. I genuinely hope this all comes back to bite him on the arse.


#440

I am with you exactly. But even staying away from the subscription for a while will not make them change their mind.
I think that the Adobe Guy is mot the reason for this mess. I think Nemetschek wanted to make the change and looked for someone with experience. He will tell them “relax in three years we will earn more Money then ever”.

But there is a big difference between Maxon and Adobe. Maxon already had a steady stream of income with the MSA. So they will feel it much harder then Adobe. especially with this sort of underwhelming offers for MSA Customers. As much I can understand that they want to offer Rental, I really can not understand why they give away their MSA Costomers that easily.


#441

No, me neither. Every MSA customer was, I’m assuming, a loyal C4D user who upgraded year after year. They already had our return business, and the only benefit we had was that if we decided to not upgrade we ha a working app. which in my book is fine because I’ve bloody well paid for it. Time and time again. And if you did skip, boy they made you pay for it with the next upgrade price. Anyway, I’m tired of moaning about this unfair and unjust clusterfuck. Whether it’s Nemetschek or McGavran, a curse on them all for treating us so poorly.


#442

This all makes the recent offer of “upgrade from any version of C4D to R20 for X” seem a bit cheeky now. I took advantage of that thinking that I may go freelance in the next year, little did I know that I could have waited and just subscribed. To be fair the decision at the time was sound and I do get R21 so I’m not complaining (it sure sounds like I’m complaining!) so much as saying that it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

I can’t remember a release less exciting than this one. Subscription pricing is not a feature.

With Houdini, Max and Maya all having indie versions I get the feeling that what’s keeping a lot of us using C4D is investment in knowledge, plugins and years of work, not so much the software itself.

Why is Cineversity not just free? When I’m choosing a new piece of software learning support is near the top of the list of things I look for. Build a knowledgeable user base, they create better work, become invested in the software, more people use it.

I really dislike this new scrolling forum. Bring back pages.