R21 First Impressions


#62

Regardless of how good Redshift is, it’s hardware-specific, and Cinema 4D was always cross-platform.
The answer for GPU renderng was ProRender.

The point at hand is if the denoiser is having a good synergy with it, and helping to solve its weak points.

You mentioned above “ProRender never cleans up”.
Well, now with the denoiser, it does, in reasonable times. That’s the sum of it.


#63

Absolute nonsense, are you completely devoid of looking at the issue objectively?

In my tests Redshift was 6-10 times faster than PrRender on the same hardware except Redshift was clean, ProRender noisy. With a denoiser ProRender is still 6-10 times slower on the same hardware!

This was the Save the Princess scene in the Maxon content Browser so no motion blur which absolutely kills ProRender.

If ProRender was ever the answer then what the hell was the question that was being asked?

Was it, ‘How can we spend as little money possible on development on our own GPU renderer?’ I can’t think of any other question that would lead to the answer being ProRender.


#64

First, some thought:

You cant compare Eevee with Redshift, Eevee has screen space reflection, thats why its so fast, is not a raytracing render engine like Arnold or Redshift is. I dont think it can reflect caustics (maybe im wrong), but im pretty sure it cant refract several objects behind each other. You can however compare Eevee with Redshift RT, the upcoming real time solution, but thats a dicussion for another time.

https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/latest/render/eevee/limitations.html

Its good enough for everyday work and some more (thats why im adopting Eevee into my workflow as well), but lets get realistic, shall we?

Now, on the other hand… Prorender was painfully slow and thats why I bought Cycles 4D a couple of years ago, and then Redshift for my work. I can understand Maxon decision to buy Prorender - Mac users- though I cant understand Maxon decision to sell Redshift to its users. I wish C4D just discarded Prorender and gave Redshift for free to its user base, but, hey if someone is happy with ProRender, good for them.

Anyway… lets get back to the topic… denoisers, every major render engine has one, and they all have something in common… you cant use low samples and expect the denoiser to magically enhance the scene.

Final thought, Maxon owns Redshift, but I dont think they own Prorender, im not sure if they develop Prorender. Maybe im wrong?


#65

Thanks luisRiera I don’t need the lecture on Eevee I’m perfectly cognisant of what it is and what it isn’t.

That very simple coffee bean scene could easily be rendered by Eevee with no loss of fidelity that’s why I used it as a comparison. It is a ridiculously simple scene that ProRender is tripped up by.

I’m being extremely realistic. Perhaps if you had as much experience with Eevee as me you would’ve understood why I included it, it’s precisely the sort of scene you’d render in Eevee. The scene is in the C4D content browser, there’s nothing to it, have a look.

Here’s some Eevee Arch-Viz. https://blenderartists.org/t/kitchen-living/1173419

Eevee is actively being developed and is set to have a big upgrade in Blender 2.81 with much better and faster shadows. There are plans to bring realtime voxel based GI calculations better motion blur support and to get as close to Cycles quality live in the viewport as possible.

Even if people have no interest in exploring Blender as their main DCC exporting Alembics and FBX animations to Blender for rendering in Eevee could save you a ton of cash in hardware or renderfarm fees.

It’s free, what have you got to lose?


#66

My bad, still its useful knowledge for people who think Eevee is also a raytracer.

So you are saying, that scene that Prorender trips on a Mac, can be rendered with Redshift or Eevee on a Mac?

I thought there was no Redshift on Mac and Eevee had a lot of trouble with macs (I even saw some discussion about it in blender artists forums)… but im not Mac tech savy guy.


#67

There was a thread where I could’ve answered these Eevee questions to C4D users but someone childish twerp keeps flagging the thread and getting it locked.

I’ll keep my comments here about C4D only until the other thread has stopped being flagged. I have plenty of opinions I’m dying to share about C4D.


#68

That was actually the point; I was trying to give real world examples of the tradeoffs in sample quality versus what the denoiser can do. What may be “acceptable” for a still image is garbage for animation.

The point was not to tout Prorender. It was just a convenient scene. Other engines (Arnold, Redshift, Octane, etc.) will benefit.

The test shows that an unusably noisy render (100 iterations) cleans up acceptably for animation with the Intel denoiser, contra some other contentions in this thread.


#69

That was the Blender Tutorials that got derailed, the discussion here was Prorender for Mac OS, but thats fine, you said Redshift was better, so I was wondering if it works in Mac OS, or if it has some limitations.


#70

I have the same MMB issue. It can’t be Wacom Drivers if it works in R20 and not in R21. I am using 10.13.6. Also the issue is only with panning in the viewport whilst holding option key and MMB and hovering over the Wacom tablet. Option and RightClick on the pen Zooms as it should. All other MMB use seems to work in R21. So pressing MMB in a window snaps to 4 view from a single view.


#71

I have the same issue. However I can use RightClick and Option key to Zoom in the viewport.


#72

Funny 'coz for me Alt+RMB makes the camera rotate around its own axis rather than scale/zoom. I’ve just had no luck in trying to make it work properly ; I’ve tried it on four different Macs. Even with the mouse I get erratic behaviour and this is from clean pref folder installs, the only change I’ve made is to enable Control-Click for Right-click in prefs.

One thing I have removed which I noticed was blocking both RMB and MMB to be registered in the 3D viewport is an app I use to remap one or two keys called Karabiner, But this app works fine with previous Cinema versions and all other apps I use.


#73

One thing that I noticed regarding general user experience is the time it takes to open the node editor. This isn’t really reproducable, but sometimes it takes up to 3 seconds after double clicking a newly created node material (an older i7 laptop with 8GB ram).


#74

I noticed an issue with the denoiser, I guess. I rendered a simple VDB (64x64x64 voxels) with ProRender (old I7 Laptop, 8GB, Geforce 960M 4GB) and activated denoiser. ProRender iterations limited to 30. Works ok. If I now turn on “Use multi-passes” for the denoiser, the render gets stuck at 10 iterations. After a minute or so I force it to stop.

Also, when doing that render (with or without multi-pass) in the editor (plain old rendering, not interactive ProRender preview) it takes realy long to exit (via camera change for example) the rendering.

I guess my hardware is just to weak for ProRender :disappointed_relieved:


#75

R21 contains massive changes under the hood (resulting in much higher speed of the Timeline, UI, …) and for that purpose also does exclusively rely on OS events (that tell the app about your input), while previous version were relying on polling the state of your input.

If those events are modified by external apps hooking into OS functions, then this modification has to deliver now the full scope of functionality the OS delivers (e.g. timestamps for every event and and other info being able to inquired for that event has to be modified properly and match).

Any other 3rd party kernel extensions used?

Best regards,

Wilfried


#76

Not sure what a kernel extension might be. What would be an example of a kernel extension?


#77

You won’t get very far with 4GB GPU memory even on a PCIe card, 8 GB is the bare minimum you should consider as usable. After Windows takes its cut there’s virtually nothing left to work with 4 GB.

I wouldn’t feel too upset, it’s ProRender you aren’t missing out on anything.


#78

So, in the case of a Wacom Intuos, a RMB would be a Ctrl+click. Could it be something to do with R21 not recognising the click of the Wacom stylus? Dunno, just throwing that one out there.


#79

The help say that the denoiser produces poorer results with Multi-Pass turned on, when using volumes and stacked materials masked by alpha channels


#80

While testing I occasionaly got Prorender stuck around 10 or 20 iteration (seemed to be more like 9 o 19), changing the viewport slighlty by moving to another point of view restarted the calculation and it went smoothly after that. I don’t know if that’s because of the denoiser or not.


#82

Tools that hook into functionality of the OS kernel (therefore highly depend on the kernel architecture and kernel changes) and modify the behaviour of these OS functions for other apps that call OS functions.

The release notes for the app you mentioned say: “We made new Karabiner as Karabiner-Elements-11.0.0 from scratch due to kernel architecture changes in macOS Sierra.”.

Best regards,

Wilfried