R21 First Impressions


#42

I haven’t seen an answer yet: What do you do if you need more than 5 team render clients? A separate subscription for each additional 5 nodes? One of the best things Maxon did was to incorporate an unlimited license into the studio bundle then we didn’t have to deal with it. Going back to a cap is another bad idea.

FYI - I didn’t renew my MSA or haven’t purchased a subscription yet. Antics like capping T.R. isn’t a good way to get me excited about a new R21 subscription.


#43

Me and a lot of my colleagues were stoked about the introduction of denoisers about a year or so ago.

Today, nobody uses them for animation anymore. They simply introduce blotches and artifacts to animation. Especially animation.

Just look at the images NWoolridge and I posted here. So simple renderings. And they have blurry parts and artifacts all over the place.

Best practice is to render out noisy and use Neat Video in post. Plain simple.

I would love to use them to cut my render times to one third or so. But is doesn’t work. Octane does not. This obviously does not. Redshift I do not use.

Edit: I just rendered the Studio product scene with a simple orbiting camera animation. Guess what happens? Blotches.


#44

I hope you changed the scene to use real lights rather than emissive planes… that would probably work better. And to be fair, I was using ridiculously low iterations (33, I think) which are not exactly fair to the renderer or denoiser…


#45

Have you used Vray or Corona by any chance? Ive been using denoiser with those for a 2 years and never had any issues with rendering animations. I use 3dsmax however It shouldnt make much difference when it comes to those particular engines Im sure.


#46

I use Corona with R20. The Intel denoiser is very nice for test renderings or stills. The Corona denoiser ist somewhat better in animations.

On the other hand, the implementation of the Intel denoiser in Blender just blew me away … :joy::+1:


#47

Denoisers are hit and miss and rely totally on the noise profile matching as closely as possible to their cleanup algorithm. The Intel denoiser has been trained for clearing noise from renderers rather than noise from video or film so there is a likelyhood that some renderers will work better than other renderers with the AI denoiser. because not all renderers noise is the same.

No denoiser should ever be used in a professional workflow without considerable testing. Many Redshift users came unstuck when they believed the considerable hype that was pushed by shills about the nVidia AI denoiser. Many a long render was ruined, images were clear of noise but very ugly ‘water colour’ style artefacts which bubbled across the animation were extremely noticeable which were aesthetically far worse than the actual noise it removed.

Denoising tech should be used as a line of last resort not to cover over the glaring inadequacies of Cinema 4d’s render engines. That’s all that the AI denoiser is doing in C4D, it’s a sticking plaster across the worst CPU and GPU renderers foisted upon the user base.

Instead of praising the inclusion of this open-source tech you should be asking why Maxon has not been able to develop a modern renderer that is fit for purpose in all these years?


#48

So I reported this issue to Maxon and started a dialogue with a representative … it seemed like they were prepared to look into the issue and told me that " there were issue on older versions on macOS"…

I heard back from Maxon this morning who told me…

“the solution to update to macOS 10.14. Actually we are not able to offer another solution.”

I was really disappointed with this, to be told they are not able to offer another solution. There’s clearly an issue with the navigation in R21 with a Wacom. I can hold R20 and R21 side by side, navigation in R20 works for me but doesn’t in R21.

Effectively I would have to sacrifice Redshift if I were to upgrade my Mac OS and Redshift is much too important a tool for me to consider losing it… and I have no guarantee that navigation will begin to work for me even if I do, so I’m not prepared to do it at the moment.

It would be useful if there are any Mac users out there who also use a Wacom tablet as their main pointing device to test the navigation. The issue I’m experiencing is explained above, but suffice to say that MMB and RMB aren’t working for me in the 3D viewport. When I say RMB I’m talking about ctrl click and MMB is set to the redundant function key on the keyboard. These buttons do register in the command manager and they will work for navigation in combination with a mouse, but not with the Wacom.

Unfortunately for me, this means either completely changing the way I work to accommodate or just not upgrading to R21.


#49

It’s a pity that, Object node in Utility can not link with another material(node, uber, standard, pbr). Or we have not Material link node which will work in blend


#50

More first R21 impressions from the Redshift devs:

They are pretty much ready to deliver Redshift which is compatible with R21 Material nodes only the Node SDK is not sufficiently complete for them to do so. :joy:

A day late and a dollar short…What an inauspicious start for those customers who jumped on the Redshift/C4D subscription!


#51

Benek,

your problem wasn’t reproducible on macOS 10.13 or 10.14. We can’t rule out custom settings of your Wacom driver to be a problem, but with default Wacom installation it worked fine on multiple machines we tested.

Feel free to demo the effect to a QA person as offered in a support mail (you should have got).

Best regards,

Wilfried


#52

So what new feature or improved feature people

  • likes more?
  • will make a bigger impact in day to day?

I made this list:

Bevels
VDB caching
New GUI
Intel denoiser+Pro render improvements
Fields (force field)


#53

Faster timeline speed (if you deal with animations) should make quite a difference.

Best regards,

Wilfride


#54

If you are a professional why are you still jumping through hoops with Macs?

The Apple/nVidia situation is not breaking news you’ve been shafted for years by them. There’s such a simple and obvious answer to your problem it doesn’t need saying.

Anyone naive enough to think Redshift will deliver a Metal solution by end of year you’ll likely be sorely disappointed, the Redshift devs have never hit a deadline to deliver features in the two years I’ve been a customer. In my experience it’ll be 6 months to a year later than promised that you’ll get a beta.


#55

Here are some example renders to assess the usefulness of the denoiser: all done on a 2017 Macbook Pro with a Radeon Pro 560 4 GB (i.e. not a speedy GPU renderer). There are probably optimizations I haven’t made…

10 iterations, 1 sample per iteration (31 frames, 10 minute render):

50 iterations, 2 sample per iteration (31 frames, 1 hour render):

100 iterations, 3 sample per iteration (31 frames, 3 hour render):


#56

Surely you can see that the 10 minute and 1 hour renders are unusable. Have a good long look at the awful mess the denoiser is making of the bokeh.

Prorender is not fit for purpose in a modern 3D pipeline, it’s slower than modern CPU renderers. It’s embarrassing that Maxon should even consider offering it in a supposedly professional application.

Redshift would render an HD frame as simple as that scene in under a minute on a couple of 1080TIs , Eevee would render than scene in real time.

The optimisations you haven’t made are switching to a computer that has no problem running a CUDA/Optix based renderer and wasting your time with the worst GPU renderer currently available.

I lied, I’ve just converted the scene to Redshift and it renders the scene in 7 seconds on 2x 1080TIs. Clean, no noise. No denoiser needed.

This is proves how short you’re all being sold with ProRender. It’s a joke.


#57

First of all, you should reply more respectfully to your co-member that just invested hours of his time to provide you with information. This rude, dismissive attitude isn’t helping anyone.

Second, you’re comparing rendertimes (less than a minute on two 1080 TIs) to rendertimes that were clearly stated to run on a laptop. Specifically a mac laptop (wonder what alternatives you would provide for that).

ProRender supports multiple GPUs as well, and it would have a great speed-up with two high-end desktop GPUs.

You’re comparing it with Redshift while it’s an unbiased renderer, with all the positives and negatives that go along with that term. One of the most prominent negatives is that it really has trouble to do the final cleaning of a scene, and the denoiser helps greatly with that.

That scene would probably require 1000+ iterations to look clean, meaning more than 10 times the rendertime that is required when using the denoiser EVEN for animation. For stills, the 50 iterations version is already good, so even less time there.


#58

Today, nobody uses them for animation anymore. They simply introduce blotches and artifacts to animation. Especially animation. I would love to use them to cut my render times to one third or so. But is doesn’t work. Octane does not.

Octane, 4k, both with the octane denoiser on to halve the render times:



#59

I’ve tested ProRender vs Redshift on the same hardware and ProRender never cleans up not even if you leave it running for an hour.

Redshift will deliver noise free HD scenes in circa 2 mins for a fair sized scene with motion blur and shallow DoF.

51mon, I realise you’re a Maxon shill so I know to expect you to defend the indefensible. I’ve been a long time lurker of this forum when our studio was solely using C4D. I’ve seen how dissent is dealt with here.

ProRender deserves to be dismissed, it’s junk.

It was obviously brought in for the Mac brigade but it would’ve made far more sense if Maxon had bothered to modernise its CPU Renderers instead. On a modern CPU Corona runs rings around PreRender on the gawd awful GPUs Apple puts in its computers.

There’s zero investment in keeping areas of C4D current, there’s nothing that one could even say is best in class any more. Sketch and toon, body paint, dynamics, the viewport it’s all old hat and going nowhere.


#60

This is how you reply after being asked to write more politely? I’ve been a member here probably for longer than you, and I mostly reply to help users with questions. I replied because you’ve been rude to people who are being genuinely helpful, and to correct your inaccuracies.

As for being a “Maxon shill”, you are probably forgetting that Redshift is Maxon now.

Shame on you.


#61

No, I’m not forgetting Redshift is owned by Maxon. It’s part of my point. Redshift is an additional purchase for the user because Maxon offers second rate CPU and GPU renderers as standard. You have to pay extra to get something that is by any measure fit for purpose.

Shame on Maxon and those who defend them.