Production workflow advice


#1

Hey everybody, I was hoping to get a bit of advice for a project that I’ll be working on soon. Several students and myself at my university will be producing an animation this coming year and I figured some of the experienced people here could save me some trouble!

We’re working in Maya (2010 I think, unless the school bought 2011 or 2012 over the summer) with Mental Ray. My questions are mainly about the lighting and compositing workflow. If you guys have any comments or resources/websites to point me to, that would be fantastic! Much of my searching has lead me to so many different and sometimes conflicting opinions.

[ul]
[li]We’ll be working with a linear workflow. Is there a “correct” way to do this? I always just use mia_exposure_simple.
[/li][li]Regarding Final Gather and Global Illumination. How is the best way to handle this for a production? I’ve never even worked on an animated scene before (mine are all stills). I’d like to be able to do things efficiently.
[/li][li]Render passes. The best way that I’ve found to do them is create separate files for the diffuse, specular, shadow passes, etc, just because I don’t like the way Maya handles them. Are there any free resources compatible with Maya and Mental Ray that lets me handle render passes more efficiently? I’ve seen how Vray handles its render passes and it just seems like MR should be that easy as well.
[/li][li]Outdoor scenes. People go bananas over physical sun and sky. I do outdoor scenes the way that it teaches in Jeremy Birn’s book, Digital Lighting and Rendering with two directional lights. One for the sun, one for the sky light. Is there some reason I should be using sun and sky that I don’t know about? And are there any decent resources out there on how to use it effectively? The only semi helpful thing I’ve found on it is this: http://www.mentalimages.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/arch_and_design.pdf
[/li][/ul]

I know that’s a lot of questions. I would appreciate any tips or suggestions on how to make the lighting, rendering, and compositing run smoothly. Thanks in advance!


#2

Number one rule = Keep things simple as possible.


#3

Yes, that is what I would love to do! I’m trying to get a feel for what some of the best practices are when working in lighting for a production.


#4

mr Bob is right about keeping things simple! I’ll try and answer some points for you.

* We’ll be working with a linear workflow. Is there a “correct” way to do this? I always just use mia_exposure_simple.

There’s no one perfect way to do it (in Maya), unfortunately. The different methods are annoying in different ways. If you are using the mia_exposure_simple you are halfway there, but you need to be correcting your textures and colour swatches first in preparation for the lens shader. Everything needs to be ‘linear’ the whole way through the process. Textures painted in Photoshop or used from photo reference are not linear unless you tell them to be. You can either do this by saving them as an EXR file, or in Maya use the Gamma utility node to linearize them using gamma values of 0.454. That takes the default 2.2 gamma out of them. You also need to do this for any colour swatches or procedural textures that are assigned to shader properties that show up as colour in your render, ie a diffuse/colour swatch, specular colour, transparency colour etc. Even the colour swatch for your lights. Otherwise the lens shader will make things look pale and too bright. There are some scripts to help you manage this process such as the one found here:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=87&t=899672

Sorry if I raced through that explanation but you may already know all of that, or I can answer more questions later. :scream: There are other options out there too such as the DeeX shaders which have gamma correction built in, but they use their own pass system which is different to Maya’s (though you may like that).

* Regarding Final Gather and Global Illumination. How is the best way to handle this for a production? I’ve never even worked on an animated scene before (mine are all stills). I’d like to be able to do things efficiently.

Well it will really depend on a number of things, such as the complexity of the scenes and lighting, how much flexibility you want in the compositing stage, how long the animation is versus how big your renderfarm is etc. Also how much technical understanding your artists will have or if you’ll have someone (maybe a lighter) designated the rendering troubleshooter if need be. Each new version of Maya comes with a newer mental ray version and better features for managing indirect lighting, so hopefully your school is nice and upgraded Maya for you, but you’ll still get by with 2010 of course. :slight_smile: Final Gather by itself will likely be much easier to handle than FG + GI together, so consider that option or even do some tests if you have time to see how you feel with the workflow.

* Render passes. The best way that I’ve found to do them is create separate files for the diffuse, specular, shadow passes, etc, just because I don’t like the way Maya handles them. Are there any free resources compatible with Maya and Mental Ray that lets me handle render passes more efficiently?

Having them as separate files is ok if you only want a couple of passes, but if you end up with 30 shots in your animation with 10 passes each… that’s 300 separate files and if you make changes to a shot you need to recreate or update all 10 files for that shot! :scream: Way too many opportunities for things to get messed up! Maya’s passes system is pretty crazy I know, but if you use the good parts of it without committing to it entirely it can work out well. Don’t forget that ‘Render Layers’ is a separate feature to ‘Render Passes’ even though they do go together. Quite a bit can be done with ‘Render Layers’ on it’s own. Almost the same as having separate files, but it’s all contained together and maintains connections to things so it’s easier to update with changes. There’s a big PDF on the distinction between Render Passes VS Render Layers… I’ll see if I can find it… here:

http://usa.autodesk.com/maya/white-papers/

On the right! Render Pass Concepts & Techniques. Things like ‘Contribution Maps’ can be really useful and we used them a lot (as well as the whole system) doing high end car commercials that need a lot of passes. Of course, you need to evaluate how complex and flexible you need things to be. Don’t go too crazy and feel like you should use all the power available when it’s not really that important for your animation!

* Outdoor scenes. People go bananas over physical sun and sky. I do outdoor scenes the way that it teaches in Jeremy Birn’s book, Digital Lighting and Rendering with two directional lights. One for the sun, one for the sky light. Is there some reason I should be using sun and sky that I don’t know about? And are there any decent resources out there on how to use it effectively? The only semi helpful thing I’ve found on it is this: http://www.mentalimages.com/fileadm…_and_design.pdf

Well, there’s nothing wrong with doing anything if it gets you the result you want. :arteest: The physical sun & sky does have a number of benefits, mainly if you are aiming for a more (or totally) realistic lighting style for your animation. Here are a few:

  1. It has a high dynamic range. If you’re using a linear workflow, you’d probably like your lighting to be reasonably correct in terms of comparative intensity etc. The sun is, well, freaking epic-ly bright! Approximately a gazillian times brigther than a street light for example. This means you’ll get nice intense highlights on your surfaces, perfect for adding glows and blooms in post etc.

  2. It is the right colour temperature, and adjusting the time of day etc changes the colour and intensity accordingly.

  3. There’s an actual sun, for reflections.

  4. It has some atmospheric properties like haze etc.

  5. It works really well with the lens shaders and indirect illumination. In fact, if you do end up using GI, the sun & sky knows the correct photon intensity and has optimisations built into it. Photons from a directional light are almost never a good idea. The photons would be coming from an infinitely large source and most of them would miss your scene entirely.

  6. It’s quick and easy to get a nice result, and still quite customizable in terms of style.

As for resources I can’t think of any off the top of my head I’m afraid.


#5

Wow, thanks for such a detailed response.

Yeah, I’ve heard about the DeeX shaders, but there is kind of a problem with that, which is I’m the post production lead, and not in charge of texturing. At our school, we’re not even taught to use any shaders outside of maya’s default blinn, phong, and lambert. We dabble in mia_material_x for some presets, but using Mental Ray materials and even the linear workflow were something that I had to learn for myself. I convinced the director that we need to at least be using mib_illum materials for stuff. It’s this kind of gaping hole in my education that’s leading to me asking these questions. Linear workflow seems obvious to people, but when it’s never taught to you, you never know what it is or even that you’re missing it, you know?

Good point, and thanks for that link, I’ll definitely check it out tomorrow when I have time to read it. I read that the render passes feature in Maya only really works correctly when using Mia_material_x. The artistic style that we’re using (I think anyways) is a soft sort of pastel look, so we’re not really shooting for hyper-realism. In my opinion, mental ray’s phong, blinn, and lamberts will accomplish the look that they want just fine.

Cool, I’ll have to make up some test scenes to compare and contrast the lighting workflow with both methods. I’ve seen most people point to sun and sky because it’s easy, not for the reasons you’ve mentioned. It’s good to see why it’s used, not just to hear that it should be.

As you can see, I feel like I’ve been dropped into the middle of an ocean, unsure of which way to start swimming. I’m good at learning and adapting to new things, and I really do love devoting time to this stuff. I just have no idea what I need to know. Three months ago, I didn’t know what a linear workflow was after two years learning Maya. What else am I missing?!?!

Thanks, Jared, you’ve been a great help and oh my goodness is that a Buffy avatar!


#6

No problem!

I remember when I was doing my end of class production (animated short) back in 2002 and it’s a very big task to accomplish (we only made it 3/4 of the way through haha).

At our school, we’re not even taught to use any shaders outside of maya’s default blinn, phong, and lambert. We dabble in mia_material_x for some presets, but using Mental Ray materials and even the linear workflow were something that I had to learn for myself. I convinced the director that we need to at least be using mib_illum materials for stuff. It’s this kind of gaping hole in my education that’s leading to me asking these questions. Linear workflow seems obvious to people, but when it’s never taught to you, you never know what it is or even that you’re missing it, you know?

Yep, totally understand. It’s hard for schools to keep up with the current trends unless the teachers are also actively working in production and they’re allowed to adapt the curriculum as they go. A lot of schools just stick to what they know because it’s hard to have courses re-accredited etc, though I’m not too involved with that sort of thing. mental ray for Maya first came out halfway through my 2 year animation course so everyone was like “what’s a mental ray? FG? GI? Occlusion?” it was pretty crazy for the school.

You’ll find however (as I’m sure you know) that you’ll have to be constantly learning new things by yourself or with colleagues anyway just to keep up as a working professional, so it’s good practice. :thumbsup:

Don’t worry about not being taught linear workflow! Half the professionals in the industry don’t know what it is or use it properly! Well, maybe that’s a bit harsh but it’s only really come to the forefront of peoples’ minds in the last few years.

To be honest though, if you’re going to use mental ray shaders for your production I would either use the Mia shaders… or just stick to the Maya shaders. Mib_illum_blinn etc aren’t really there to be used as they are, they were more added into Maya so that when people build larger ‘phenomena’ as mental ray calls it (a single shader made up of a network of different shader nodes combined) there would be lots of bits and pieces a person could draw from. The ‘Render Passes’ system doesn’t work with a combination of Maya + mental ray shaders, so you generally have to go full force one or the other. You’ll find most people use the Mia shaders for everything, stylised or realistic. It’s pretty flexible!

As you can see, I feel like I’ve been dropped into the middle of an ocean, unsure of which way to start swimming. I’m good at learning and adapting to new things, and I really do love devoting time to this stuff. I just have no idea what I need to know. Three months ago, I didn’t know what a linear workflow was after two years learning Maya. What else am I missing?!?!

Don’t worry everyone feels like that all the time! :scream: You have the right attitude though which is really important. You can never learn too much in this industry.

Thanks, Jared, you’ve been a great help and oh my goodness is that a Buffy avatar!

Haha, my pleasure and you are very close! It is Sarah Michelle Gellar but as Daphne in the Scooby Doo movie. I was watching the DVD back whenever that came out, had never taken a screenshot using Power DVD before and so that was my first test! I didn’t have an avatar on here yet and thought she had the right feel for one… plus I may also be a huge Buffy fan. :wavey:


#7

Yes, that is what I would love to do! I’m trying to get a feel for what some of the best practices are when working in lighting for a production.

I gave you the number one best practice that gets ignored time and time again. The reality is its better to get a completed result than a half finished could of been project. So when I talk about simple can you light a shot with as simple lighting as possible. Do you really need loads of passes. Can you just beauty render. All of these things matter as the more complicated it gets, the harder it is to turn round versions fast. All of the things you implement become your best practice for getting the job done.

b


#8

I also like to know how in production people implement FG with animated characters and moving cameras.
I know it depends on complexity of scene and render farm size, etc. but for a mid level( no detailed geometry such as trees etc.) scenario how it is taken care off,.
I would appreciate if anybody can explain that instead of considering a simple sphere or Teapot as basis but considering moving characters with moving cameras in a mid level set as that would be much different to handle .
So here I think few queries would come in that scenario.

Do we need to generate one FG file for the whole shot or Do we need to generate different FG file per frame?
How we can avoid problem of jitter happening due to different file option and how could we calculate the interpolation between the points.
Again do we need to generate sepearte Fg files for characters and for Background
If Yes ,should we combine those,if yes then How?
How can we optimize the character FG file if he is moving fast as well as if he is moving slow?
I think if we can understand these question and get their corresponding reply, upto some extent we can easily implement FG in a pipeline


#9

I think if we can understand these question and get their corresponding reply, upto some extent we can easily implement FG in a pipeline

Its been many years since I ever used FG and MR but one trick I used a lot was to set the light falloff to start at 0 and to end at 0.001. It was so I got the nice environment fill lighting without the pesky flicker couple that with a AO pass and your off the starting blocks. It was fast to render and predictable.

b


#10

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