Pencil & Pen lines/ Whitish outline?

#1

Hi,
I’m trying to sketch with pencil or pen tools, then later color under and over the drawing. Whenever I put a tone, particularly a dark tone, on a layer under the lines, the lines have a light edge to them. Does anyone know how to keep this from happening?

The drawings look nice, I’m simply trying to create a Ink line drawing with colored wash effect.

The only solution I’ve found is to select the lines and fill them with a color on a different layer, but this loses the character of the ink line or pencil line.

I’m using Painter 9.5 on Windows XP SP2.

Any help would be appreciated.

pg

#2

Hi,

If you can provide:
[ul]
[li]a screen print showing the problem,[/li][li]the exact names of the brush categories,[/li][li]the exact names of the brush variants, and[/li][li]a list of brush control adjustments you made, if any, to each of the brush variants…[/li][/ul]
maybe we can do some testing, then help you with a solution.

Jinny

#3

Hi Jin,
Thanks for the reply. I’m attaching a rather low quality file. I hope you can see the problem. There’s apparently a 72k file size limit which makes it hard to show the problem. At the top are the two drawings. One is done with the Art Pen Brushes/Soft Cover Brush01 (Without any variants or modifications). The second is done with the Pens/Scratchboard Tool (again without any variants or modifications done). They were both drawn with “Pick up underlying color” checked. When I unchecked this it made no difference for the Soft Cover Brush01, but the problem improved greatly with the Scratchboard tool, however, the drawing’s initial line quality wasn’t as good.

  Below you can see the same drawings with tones applied to the layer below them.

As you can see, the lines which were originally very dark (nearly black) become lighter, almost “ghosted” under the dark tones.

I really like drawing with these two tools. I’d appreciate any help in solving this problem.

Also, I apologize in my initial post for including Pencils in the problem. It doesn’t seem to be a problem with the pencils, but I’ve pretty much stopped using pencils because they always have the default “Gel” attribute that I’m constantly having to change to “default” so I can see what the lines really look like. If you can tell me how to change their default from “Gel” to “Default” I’d really appreciate it.

Thanks for any help,

pg

#4

This brush variant, in its default state, has blending and smearing characteristics as you’ll see when looking at the Resat and Bleed settings. Resat controls how much color is on the brush; Bleed controls how much existing color is picked up and painted along with the currently selected color. When we paint on transparent areas of a Layer, the edges of the stroke will be white (or lighter than the main part of the stroke.

[/quote]The second is done with the Pens/Scratchboard Tool (again without any variants or modifications done). [/quote]

The Pens’ Scratchboard Tool variant, when in its default state, is not one that has blending and smearing characteristics so it should not paint with white (or lighter) edges. The only thing I’ve experienced that would make the color less solid would be if you paint with a very light touch so the stroke is very narrow and begins to break up into a series of lighter pixels, some so light they barely show… instead of a solid stroke.

They were both drawn with “Pick up underlying color” checked. When I unchecked this it made no difference for the Soft Cover Brush01, but the problem improved greatly with the Scratchboard tool, however, the drawing’s initial line quality wasn’t as good.

I’d have expected the opposite result, with the Pick Up Underlying Color box checked, the Art Pen Brushes’ Soft Cover Brush should not have had lighter edges as those edges would have been mixed with the underlying color.

I don’t know how unchecking the Pick Up Underlyng Color box would improve the Scratchboard Tool stroke as it’s not a blending and smearing variant to begin with. Very puzzling.

I’m Going to attach the file with the colors on the underlying layer on a second message as, combined, they exceed the size limit (apparently 72k ?).

Hope that’s ok.

So Here are two sketches.

pg

Ah! Now I see your first sketch.

Not sure what you want us to see, though.

It looks like what I’d expect, considering the color (or opacity) used to sketch with the Soft Cover Brush (medium grey). Over the the black suit, I’d expect those lines to be lighter than the suit.

Jinny

#5

What may solve your problem is to set the (what does Painter call it?) blending mode on the linework layer to “multiply”.

#6

Hi Jin,
Thanks for the reply.
I apologize for the last part of my message where I mentioned a second post. I had originally meant to post two images, one of the drawings alone and one of the drawings with the tone under, but had to combine them because of the file size limitation on the board.

So, there’s no way to get rid of the white outline for the “Art Pen Brushes/Soft Cover Brush01”? I’d hoped there would be, because I really enjoy the line quality of this brush.

I should state that with that brush and the Pens/Scratchboard Tool I’m drawing on a transparent layer on top of a separate white background layer. I then place the colored tones on an underlying layer AFTER I draw the image. This may be why when “Pick up underlying color” is checked it gives a whitish hue when a dark tone is placed under the drawing but not when I uncheck it (Is it picking up some of the white from the underlying layer)?

Also, Jin, is there a way to change the default layer attribute for a brush?

As I mentioned before, the “Gel” attribute for the pencils drives me crazy. It doesn’t look anything like a pencil line until I change the attribute to “Default”.

This may seem like a minor thing to have to change, but I do storyboards for a living and have to draw as fast as I possibly can to turn out the work and having to change the attributes of each pencil layer as I use it can become a real problem.

Thanks for your help,

pg

#7

Hi Gruhn,
Thanks for your reply.
I tried the “multiply” attribute for the and you’re right, it does eliminate the problem. Unfortunately this causes the same problem as with the default attribute of “Gel” for the pencils.

As I mentioned in my reply to JIn;

The "Gel" attribute for the pencils drives me crazy. It doesn't look anything like a pencil line until I change the attribute to "Default".
 
 This may seem like a minor thing to have to change, but I do storyboards for a living and have to draw as fast as I possibly can to turn out the work by the deadline and having to change the attributes of each pencil layer as I use it can become a real problem.

So having to manually reset the attribute to multiply each time I start a new layer basically creates the same problem as with the pencil brushes.

I admit it's not a big deal for 99% of the people using the program, but it's very distracting to me, and my friends who use Painter and also do storyboards have all mentioned it as something that also irritates and slows them down.

As I said, I finally stopped using the Pencil brushes all together because of it.

If you can help me as to changing the default attributes I, and many of my friends, would be in your debt.

pg
#8

If this is a big problem to you give Paint Tool SAI a try as it does not have the same issue as Painter with blending/white but even so I always set to multiply, it works great since I can erase with white and draw with black by pressing “X” to switch colors instead of tools.

#9

Thanks for the reply.
As I said, this is a big problem to me. It definitely impacts how fast I can work, and in story boarding, unfortunately, speed can be more important than quality.

What’s Paint Tool SAI? Is it compatible with Painter and Photoshop (esp as far as layers/selections etc)?

How much does it cost? I looked around on Google, but only saw the price in, I believe, yen- 5250. Not sure how much that is.

pg

#10

Try removing the blending and smearing characteristics of the brush variant:

  1. Save the variant as a custom variant with a unique name not already used by Painter.

  2. Switch to your new custom variant.

  3. In the Brush Controls’ Well palette, move the Bleed slider to 0%.

  4. Save the new custom variant again using the same name in order to keep the adjustment you’ve made to the Bleed slider.

I should state that with that brush and the Pens/Scratchboard Tool I’m drawing on a transparent layer on top of a separate white background layer. I then place the colored tones on an underlying layer AFTER I draw the image. This may be why when “Pick up underlying color” is checked it gives a whitish hue when a dark tone is placed under the drawing but not when I uncheck it (Is it picking up some of the white from the underlying layer)?

I don’t know how or why the Pens’ Scratchboard Tool variant, if used in its default state would have white edges around the brush stroke, whether or not the Pick Up Underlying Color box is checked. That doesn’t happen for me. All I can suggest is to restore the Pens’ Scratchboard Tool to its default state and uncheck the Pick Up Underlying Color box.

Also, Jin, is there a way to change the default layer attribute for a brush?

As I mentioned before, the “Gel” attribute for the pencils drives me crazy. It doesn’t look anything like a pencil line until I change the attribute to “Default”.

This may seem like a minor thing to have to change, but I do storyboards for a living and have to draw as fast as I possibly can to turn out the work and having to change the attributes of each pencil layer as I use it can become a real problem.

Thanks for your help,

pg

Some brush variants, among them many of the Pencils’ variants, use Method: Buildup which automatically changes a New Layer to Composite Method Gel when you begin painting.

If you don’t want the Layer to be set to Composite Method Gel:

  1. Save the variant as a custom variant with a unique name not already used by Painter.

  2. Switch to your new custom variant.

  3. In the Brush Controls’ General palette, change the Method option to Cover.

  4. Save the new custom variant again using the same name in order to keep the adjustment you’ve made to the Method option.

For quick access to your custom brush variants, drag their icons onto a Custom Palette.

Jinny

#11

You can download the trial and it will work unlimited for 30 days, it costs around $50, search around Deviantart for brush textures, there’s some good ones that look exactly like pencil lines. Yes it’s compatible with PS to some extenct like masks, layers, layer folders, layer modes, it isn’t with channels and other PS stuff, but for most it is.

#12

Hi Jin,
Thank you so much for the EXTREMELY helpful replies.

Try removing the blending and smearing characteristics of the brush variant:

  1. Save the variant as a custom variant with a unique name not already used by Painter.
  
  2. Switch to your new custom variant.
  
  3. In the Brush Controls' Well palette, move the Bleed slider to 0%.
  
  4. Save the new custom variant again using the same name in order to keep the adjustment you've made to the Bleed slider.

This looks like it may solve the problem for the Art Pen Brushes/Soft Cover Brush01.
Thanks so much!

If you don’t want the Layer to be set to Composite Method Gel:

 1. Save the variant as a custom variant with a unique name not already used by Painter.
  
  2. Switch to your new custom variant.
  
  3. In the Brush Controls' General palette, change the Method option to Cover.
  
  4. Save the new custom variant again using the same name in order to keep the adjustment you've made to the Method option.

This has solved the “Gel” layer problem, Again, thanks! I know several illustrators that will be thrilled to hear this.

I’ll continue to work on the scratchboard pen issue.I’ll let you know it it begins to behave normally.

Thanks again!

pg

#13

Hi Workbench,
Thanks for the reply. I’ll look into Paint Tool SAI.
Although Painter and Photoshop are great, I’m still looking for the illusive tool that truly duplicates the line quality and feel I get with an actual pencil, charcoal stick or Prismacolor pencil.
It may actually be impossible to achieve (and that may be a good thing- it will keep us coming back to actual pencil and paper) but the closer the better.

Thanks,

pg

#14

Hi pgd,

Happy to hear at least a couple of problems are solved.

Please let us know if you figure out the Scratchboard Tool problem and what you did to fix it. It should not be behaving the way you describe.

Jinny

#15

I know this is a few months ago but I recently found a custom brush for Photoshop that simulates a pencil very well:
http://cghub.com/scripts/view/83
You can probably make a custom brush from the dab in PS to use in Painter.

John

#16

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