Particle Flow Discussion


I can also try to find simple problem in pflow that i don’t like and made a decision that pflow is not right tool.
Lat say this: - To write a long expression I need to waste couple hours to build a tree in Box3 and minute to write it in Expression node in TP.

You just to much love box2,3. They not near to Ice and Houdini.It’s too much subjective thinking.


I see your point BUT have you actually timed the evaluation? I may be wrong but I suspect that running that expression versus a data op, the expression is going to be slower. If you had time, I would be curious to see the results.


That is why I am working on learning an entirely new application…I just love the max tools soo much…

I could write an essay on the problems with PFlow. I know them very well. But, for me, I prefer Box3 over TP in general because the straight forward math of Box3 comes very easy to me. It makes it a good fit for me. Our facility uses both and I have seen the times where TP falls short and where PFlow falls short.

But all in all, I am not happy with where these tools are at in max and I am anxious to see where Oleg and Autodesk take them from here. I am learning Houdini because I need more.

btw…writing expressions or using scripts in max particles is most often NOT a faster solution.


I make a scene with 4 helpers,10k particle per sec., 200 frames, 1 step/frame, near 83k particles at the end - so results on picture. I just run slider from 1 to 200 and take a timestamp.
Also i find that TP emit this count in 0,0,0(without any action) 13 sec compare 3 sec to emit in pflow.
So hard to say where is time loss to do a clean result. But anyway tp is slow in this case.


But all in all, I am not happy with where these tools are at in max and I am anxious to see where Oleg and Autodesk take them from here. I am learning Houdini because I need more.

Ye i’m also more and more sitting in houdini. For max not sure what they can add in future, not like this friendship with physx.


PhysX might not be bad. As long as it is a unified system that works with itself and is stable…I don’t care what they use.


Thanks for testing :slight_smile:

I wasn’t sure, I suspected that Box#3 would be faster, of course maybe there is a slowdown in the way you formed your expression too, dunno. Have you tried the new math node in TP5 out of curiosity?


AFAIK expressions is much faster then maxscript in calculations. It’s fun to check in 2013 where particle redraw is faster.
It would be cool to check tp5 but cebas not hurry up to provide demo.


It depends on a lot of things, not the least of which is the developers implementation. I have seen Bobo create scripted operators in PFlow that evaluate and scale nearly as fast as Box3, but there are a lot of box3 functions that completely kill the system if done though script. In general, coded, pre-compiled tools are faster than scripts or expressions.


Sure but expressions are much faster then any scripted operator. Here i did the same test with scripted node. Look at the time it take and compare that i posted above.


“The recompiles of Box#2 and Box#3 are available for Max 2013 now.
Please keep in mind that in order to be able to use the recompiles, you need to install 3ds Max 2013 Product Update #3 (or higher) and the latest Subscription Extension.
Please send a request to Orbaz Support with your serial number(s) to get the links.
Oleg B.”


Wait, so even if you have purchased Box2 and 3, you need to be on 3ds Max subscription to be able to use them in 2013? This won’t go down well…


No, if you own them Oleg is allowed to release recompiles of the existing plugins. However, there will be no update/new features (that stuff will only be exposed to the Autodesk releases).


EDIT: After readin Oleg’s Orbaz forum post I am not sure. If it is a requirement I am guessing that the Subscription requirement is needed for MassFX compatibility or read-only option. Why don’t you ask Oleg about the situation?


Wait, so even if you have purchased Box2 and 3, you need to be on 3ds Max subscription to be able to use them in 2013? This won’t go down well…

Details: For Box#2, you just need 3ds Max 2013 Product Update #3 (or higher). For Box#3, you need the Product Update, and the Subscription Extension installed first before installing Box#3. This is due to a deeper level of integration of the Box#2/Box#3 release with 3ds Max 2013.

Now, the question - how many Box#3 users are not on the subscription?

Oleg B.


I thought of canceling actually and i know Charley has canceled already…
I use but every 4th release only and with subscription going up 45% or so it is cheaper just buying the release i will use in production as stand alone.


I am still on sub. and for the first time in 8 years with some apprehension :curious:


I’m not a Box #3 user but I’ve just let my subscription expire today, and since an upgrade costs £1830 (inc tax) which equals a staggering $2,892 whether it’s a single release cycle or a multiple release cycle, it’s going to be years until I upgrade again, if at all. Especially in light of the recent financial results from AD.

I’d had enough of being coerced into subscription, pestered into buying a 3-year subscription, poor support for new authorisation codes (4-5 days to get a code) before prices go up and then not getting anything that I didn’t already have particle-wise for my trouble.

The whole Creation Suite thing was just the straw that broke the camel’s back, even more so that recompiles for Box #2 didn’t arrive until well into the 2013 cycle.

I’m just going to wait for the dust to settle and then see if XBR was worth it.

It just seemed an apt time to actually tell them enough was enough.


That’s exactly my thoughts, with subscription costs going up next term it’s not worth it anymore if you only skip one release (and i skip at least 2 usually)…if it would be just for box3 it would mean it went from 500 bucks per single orbaz license to the price of almost a whole max license if you skipped one or two releases and using subscription just to keep the tool around not to mention you might need a suite subscription deal. not with me.


I now see why people are upset
As an equation you need 3dsMax13 + Box03 + Subscription
else you do not get to use Box 3.

This makes having Box 3 reliant on having the subscription,
and I can see why people are upset.


What most people are upset about is not only the separation that you mention but the teired approach to the baseline application.

This means if you don’t buy into the “Suite” you don’t get the full baseline product any more. So the Standalone version of Max is now different than the “Suite” version of Max.

Instead of using software that bridges the divides in a cross platform suite, ie things that transfer data seamlessly between applications, as the “suite subscription incentive” AD is using a single application specific product, ie Box#3, as the “suite subscription incentive” which by all methods of reason makes no f’king sense what-so-ever.


That concept got rolled back, right?