Not up to Showcase standards - help/advise/critique needed.

#1

Hi everyone.
First I’d like to stress that I don’t want to sound like a total ass but please help me understand why my recent piece got rejected because I may be too blind or too stupid or too in loved with myself. Here is the piece:

Does it really suck that bad? It’s not holds on against these following works (no offense to the authors)?

https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g46/379546/379546_1332733153_large.jpg

REALLY? (ass mode on, sorry)

https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g79/29379/29379_1331936133_large.jpg

SERIOUSLY?

https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g78/270978/270978_1331730845_large.jpg
This looks so finished… :rolleyes:

https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g28/86728/86728_1314716026_medium.jpg
:shrug:

https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g53/353053/353053_1314170941_large.jpg

You gotta be kidding me :curious:

https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g99/313499/313499_1314271835_medium.jpg

:surprised

https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g79/483079/483079_1329907594_large.jpg

:shrug:

https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g25/203425/203425_1314315367_large.jpg

https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g58/144258/144258_1331908766_large.jpg

https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g09/383009/383009_1314321543_large.jpg

These are all examples from the Showcase Gallery (most of them are very, very recent).
Again, maybe I am too blind or too stupid to understand what is wrong with this piece?
Of course I do realize the lighting is not on the same level as Caravaggio’s, the composition is not as extravagant as Dali’s “Christ of St.John of the Cross” but it doesn’t have to be like it. It is a concept of a motorcycle presented from a side view EXACTLY the way I wanted. The form is defined, the detail is there. Biker is just an addition to show the scale and to add a bit of life to the scene, to make it more believable it’s not meant by any means be a photo realistic human. I DID NOT want any fancy background only this gradientish thing You see now as again it is a concept (this is also part of the description of the 2D Showcase Gallery).

So what is wrong with the piece, honestly. Is it really not meeting the Showcase standards? Or maybe there are 200 motorcycles posted every week and this was just another one?

Thank You all in advance for Your comments. Feel free to be as direct as possible.

#2

Lunatique explained in another thread (this one) that the quality of art accepted to the gallery varies due to different judges’ assessments of work. In other words, different judges are on line at different times to evaluate work for the gallery and each judge evaluates work a little differently because art is after all, subjective.

I’m really not sure how you could improve your image to make it acceptable to the gallery. What were the reasons listed in your rejection notification? Maybe that could help determine what needs to be changed. The only thing I can think of is because like you said, it’s a concept and perhaps they are looking for whatever comes after the concept (like an image of this thing streaking down a track)? I really don’t know.

#3

The exact quote is this:

[I]We are sorry, but your recent art submission to the CGTalk Gallery has been declined.
Your image is still hosted on your CGPortfolio.
(“Kayagura BiPosso - speed motorcycle, R3desiGN (2D)”)

We at CGSociety.org would like to offer encouragement for your next submission.

Your submission has been declined for the following reason(s):

  • Your image currently does not meet the general quality level of the Showcase Gallery. The following are a list of possible reasons:

-There might be noticeable artistic or technical problems in your image.

-The context of your image may need a more creative presentation.

-The image might contain elements that could be offensive to some.

We suggest you post your work in the WIP forums so that other members can help critique your image and troubleshoot elements like composition, perspective, lighting/values, colors, anatomy/figure, as well as line quality, brushwork, modeling, textures, lighting…etc. They might also help you think of a more creative presentation, such as using a more interesting background for your subject, or choose more interesting camera angles, expressive poses and facial expressions.

Once you have spent some time improving your image, please feel free to submit it again, and we will be glad to reconsider your submission.[/I]

Which in my opinion sounds like a random, automatically generated loads of bollox.
Really? Artistic or technical problem? Really? More creative presentation? I love the awesome presentation and marvelous background of this one: http://features.cgsociety.org/galleryimages/566/presenter_girl_large.jpg or this https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g52/2652/2652_1141624880_medium.jpg
Really? Offensive content? Did You even look at the picture?! What, his green suit is offensive? or maybe the orange seat color? Seriously?

Perspective? You do realize it’s a side view right? What kind of perspective are they talking about? SIDE VIEW. Oh, maybe there is something wrong with biker’s perspective? I don’t think so.

Anatomy/Figure? Of what? Of the bike? The biker? It’s not Michelangelo’s Pieta or David but it’s far better than this https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g18/281918/281918_1333491174_medium.jpg or this https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g10/278210/278210_1333165972_large.jpg.

Line quality, brushwork? I can only say LOL. It has far more refined lines than tons of stuff You can find in Showcase gallery (do I sound like an arrogant ass? maybe, but I’m pointing out facts). Don’t get me even started on brushwork in a polished rendered piece like this, it’s not like I was trying to simulate water painting or oils. I understand this has better line quality or brushwork https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g53/353053/353053_1314170941_large.jpg.

Modeling? HELLO!! THIS IS 2D PIECE! :surprised :rolleyes: :surprised

Textures? What’s wrong with those I used (2 of them to be precise)?

Lighting? Again, this is not meant to compete with Caravaggio but what is wrong with softbox-like diffused, studio light from top?

More creative presentation? More interesting background? So now You get to decide whether my bike is in the studio with gradient background or on the tight streets of south italian town? Once again I love how extremely creative is this presentation and how wonderful and interesting the background is on this: http://features.cgsociety.org/galleryimages/566/presenter_girl_large.jpg or this https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g52/2652/2652_1141624880_medium.jpg or this https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g52/2652/2652_1182116226_large.jpg or this https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g66/566/566_1173782796_large.jpg.

More interesting camera angles? Like this one: https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g52/2652/2652_1141624880_medium.jpg ? Once again SIDE VIEW. I chose to present it in SIDE VIEW so what the heck are You on about?

Expressive poses? Like this one: https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g66/566/566_1185383098_large.jpg ? Or this one: https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g74/45074/45074_1112783606_medium.jpg? Ever seen a factory racing team shot? Bike (side view quite often) and a biker standing next to it, not pretending to be a monkey playing ice hockey while peeling banana.

Facial expressions? SERIOUSLY? Did You even look at the picture?!! Heck, even if the biker was not wearing helmet would You mean facial expressions like this: https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g52/2652/2652_1141624880_medium.jpg or this https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g74/45074/45074_1152023941_large.jpg or this https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g74/45074/45074_1153868213_medium.jpg or this http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/paintings_drawings/new/illustrations/scythe_wolf/scythe_wolf-closeup2.jpg ?

George Orwell’s “Animal Farm” anyone?

None of the ridiculous absurds holds water or is it only me? As You can see mybutterflyiris it’s hard to understand the true reason of that rejection.

#4

I suggest making the figure black and resubmitting it. The saturated green distracts from all the work you put into the bike.

#5

CONGRATULATIONS!
You’ve just won the SBBCB Award for Snot Bubble Blowing Cry-Baby fest excellence!

Did you really have to drag others into your rant for comparison bashing? :shrug:

To be honest every one of the examples you chose to bash compare against your piece is actually more interesting, to some degree, to look at than your image. The one thing that your rant proves is that you may be a bit of a craftsman, but you are no artist if you can’t see the differences in what you’ve done compared to the work you exemplify as being sub par to it.
Your image is of a concept vehicle. You would hope the concept expresses some good design sensibility, yours does not. Your vehicle looks like a “design-as-you-go” concoction with no thought put into marginal functionality. The rendering looks like mediocre level airbrush work that I’ve seen so much of in the 70s–80s.
The image isn’t bad, but it’s not that good either. I can see why it was rejected, even if marginally.
The one thing that you and so many don’t seem to get is when your work straddles the fence of marginal acceptability into the showcase gallery (or any gallery for that matter), it also stands the same marginal possibility of being rejected. It can be blown off the fence either way, depending on which side of the fence the butterfly flaps it’s wings on.

So how exactly does that guy ride that thing? Where do his feet go?

#6

LOL!!
And I so wanted to win that
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=7231715#post7231715

As for your art R3desiGN. The composition is lacking.

#7

Hi Quadart,
First of all ROFL!! That pic made my day :applause: :smiley: Finally some kind of award, yay! :slight_smile:

Now let’s get to some serious business. Am I an artist… is 3D modeler an artist… is japanesse blacksmith making katana swords an artist… I guess it takes some unbelievable artistic skills to make 3 cans of beverage or flying guitar in 3D app eh? ;D (just kidding) I don’t know, You decide :wink: Not that I’m claiming to be one.

To me it looks like You are trying to defend completely ridiculous “arguments” I received in my rejection. Can it be that CG Choice Award that biases your view on this somehow? ;D I pointed out every single one of them just to prove none of those holds water. Those examples were shown to show how biased and unfair the judgment was. I was not intending to bash those other works (although it could have looked like it) just wanted to understand, to define what they (CGT judges) mean by proper artistic/quality level that my work didn’t meet.

Do I even have to start again about the absurds like “offensive content” or “modeling, texturing” 3D nonsense unrelated to my 2D (TWO DIMENSIONAL to get it clear) work?

This seemed like automatically generated message or as if the judge didn’t even see the piece.

The matter of design. Sensible? How sensible is a dragon? It would never ever fly. How sensible is über huge armor and a 2 tons hammer in a hand of a woman? Whether You or others like it is a matter of personal taste. It’s not design contest of any sort and it should not disqualify any work for that reason. This is a personal project, it really does not have to make sens although it does. Half the gear in Star Wars or Tron does not make any sense and yet they made it. When You do practical things it’s absolutely crucial to make it sensible, but here I was just designing a motorcycle the way I wanted nothing more. “Design-as-you-go” You say… I can say the same thing about this https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g52/261352/261352_1332620324_large.jpg To me as random as it gets. But it’s ok, it’s our personal opinions and it does not make Your image any less good to me, I just find the vehicle random - that’s it.
Rendering, again that’s a bold statement from someone who’s already mentioned vehicle looks like from a late 50’s, early 60’s fantasty comic book. :slight_smile: But ofc You are entitled to that opinion. Just keep in mind that on this pic I am using diffused light from top.

Don’t get me wrong, I am nowhere near CG Choice Award or for example Your overall level. I know my place, I do know my weaknesses and I also realize how much more space for improvement there is in my work. Down to earth, no doubts.

The point is the work was rejected for not meeting the quality level of a Showcase gallery which I proved wrong on the examples I gave You where some of the works lacked in every aspect mentioned above. Double standards?

Regarding his feet (as You can see the handles slide forward and backwards and the foot pad is widely adjustable):

Honestly I didn’t do proper research about how good the position would be because I couldn’t care less, that’s not the point of it.

As You can see I am very reasonable about this and I felt like the decision was strange to say the least.

#8

Thanks You for Your comment.
But honestly I have a struggle here. There are 2 objects in the scene, what can possibly be done about it? Could You guide me a bit? Keep in mind 2 things: a) I want the bike from side view, b) the biker must me standing and not covering the bike. What if there was no biker? Would it be ok then?

#9

Thank You ZombieMariachis for Your comment :slight_smile:

Better? Or should I make a completely black silhouette?

#10

Therein lies the problem.

I’m guessing schematic type drawings are not getting in.

Want the bike to be the main focus? Put the rider behind the bike and crop in on the bike.

#11

I remember few years ago one of the CG Talk greats posted a bike, something like a chopper made of helicopter panels etc. Side view, practically non-existant background (white if I recall it right) and everyone was melting away :smiley:

I tried to put the biker behind the bike but it looked kinda pointless. The biker seemed to be completely unnecessary in that kind of arrangement, but I’m gonna try to do it again and see if it works.

Isn’t this kinda sad that You have to use fancy 40 points perspective to show a simple design? Oh well, maybe it’s not the right place for me anyway :slight_smile:

Thanks for Your time and comments. :beer:

#12

Now let’s get to some serious business. Am I an artist… is 3D modeler an artist… is japanesse blacksmith making katana swords an artist… I guess it takes some unbelievable artistic skills to make 3 cans of beverage or flying guitar in 3D app eh? ;D (just kidding) I don’t know, You decide Not that I’m claiming to be one.

A pickpocket is an artist too. If you don’t know what I mean, then
:hmm:

To me it looks like You are trying to defend completely ridiculous “arguments” I received in my rejection. Can it be that CG Choice Award that biases your view on this somehow? ;D I pointed out every single one of them just to prove none of those holds water. Those examples were shown to show how biased and unfair the judgment was. I was not intending to bash those other works (although it could have looked like it) just wanted to understand, to define what they (CGT judges) mean by proper artistic/quality level that my work didn’t meet.

Those statements are not “arguments” they are simply frequently sighted issues that MAY in any number or combination, have contributed to a work being rejected and none of which may have led to your piece being denied. They don’t need defending by me or anyone else. You decided to go all left-brain crazy, and run off on your ridiculous tangential rant, manufacturing excuse after excuse to try and prove a pointless point. The cg choice award has nothing to do with my opinion. I’ve had a number of things rejected from the showcase gallery including my dragonfly piece, which made it into 3dworld magazine’s gallery prior to becoming a CGS member. Did I piss about it? No. I reassessed what I needed to do to get my work to play nicer when submitting something else, regardless of how subjective or objective, or any combination in between, the voting process MAY be. Over time I came to realize that the system works pretty damn well.

The problem with your arguments is you are using situations/elements in your ‘evidence’ that have nothing what so ever to do with the strong points that got those cherry-picked images accepted in the gallery in the first place. As an ‘artist’ “you’re not seeing the forest for the trees” and that’s the strong suit of any artist. You need to see the forest part of all those distracting trees, as a whole. :wink: Art is greater than the mere some of it’s parts.

Do I even have to start again about the absurds like “offensive content” or “modeling, texturing” 3D nonsense unrelated to my 2D (TWO DIMENSIONAL to get it clear) work?

NO–YOU FREAKING DON’T :slight_smile:

The matter of design. Sensible? How sensible is a dragon? It would never ever fly. How sensible is über huge armor and a 2 tons hammer in a hand of a woman? Whether You or others like it is a matter of personal taste. It’s not design contest of any sort and it should not disqualify any work for that reason. This is a personal project, it really does not have to make sens although it does. Half the gear in Star Wars or Tron does not make any sense and yet they made it. When You do practical things it’s absolutely crucial to make it sensible, but here I was just designing a motorcycle the way I wanted nothing more.

Dude—I don’t know what part of Antarctica you’re from, but the part where I’m from artists typically know the difference between the word ‘sensibility’ (the word I used) and ‘sensible’ (as in your context of meaning rational). Sensibility, look it up. It’s a term ‘artists’ use. Sense and sensibility (not the movie :wink: ), the words are not quite the same.

“Design-as-you-go” You say… I can say the same thing about this http://features.cgsociety.org/newga...20324_large.jpg To me as random as it gets. But it’s ok, it’s our personal opinions and it does not make Your image any less good to me, I just find the vehicle random - that’s it.
Rendering, again that’s a bold statement from someone who’s already mentioned vehicle looks like from a late 50’s, early 60’s fantasty comic book. But ofc You are entitled to that opinion. Just keep in mind that on this pic I am using diffused light from top.

My image doesn’t rely on concept vehicle design as an illustration, as I am not a vehicle designner per se. I had to rely on other things to make the image work. It was also an exercise in working in a style similar to another artist (Syd Mead) as it was a contest entry here a couple of years ago, in another iteration (bad one at that). I was up against many fantastic vehicle designers and modelers in that contest. I learned a lot—it was fun as are all the contests as well as being valuable learning experiences. Especially when forced outside of the box.
I didn’t mean that your vehicle looked dated, I meant that it looked (technique-wise) like airbrush art that I’ve seen tons of back in the 70s and 80s, as I have over 20 years of airbrushing experience behind me. I actually like both futuristic and retro styled art.

Good luck on the next one.
–Get a tattoo that says “Cum Grano Salis”. :slight_smile:

#13

wow, just wow. I’m sorry if my post stumbled on a sore spot to instigate such angry posts! That was definitely not my intention. I didn’t know that they were sending people form letters that cover most of the bases, although it completely makes sense that they do, seeing as how they get so many submissions.

I also do not think it is appropriate to site specific works in your posts as a comparison in order to try to prove that your work is better and should be allowed in.  It is demeaning to the artists who created those works as well as disrespectful to this community...in my opinion.  It doesn't have any positive outcomes and instead makes you look bad.  I've seen this happening in other threads here too, and every time I come across it, it genuinely saddens me.  Let's all treat each other the way we would want to be treated.

Now with that being said, I think your image looks better with the figure's suit color changed.  I'd also change the touch of color on his shoes since now it is the only green in the image...perhaps orange?  Also, two things that bug me about the image is the black letter boxing and the lettering hidden behind the figure.  Both of these elements tend to take my eye away from the bike, but I don't really have a suggestion for a fix.

I think regardless of whether or not you can make this image acceptable to the showcase gallery judges you have an opportunity here to learn and improve your work.  Don't waste it.  And again, sorry if my post stepped on your toes so to speak.
#14

This discussion is really interesting, but really worring me about.

First think for me is I understand R3desiGN, he just as many people here on cgtalk, including me, post some of their hard work to show it to some people who knows what is going on about.
We are working hard to be recognized, and we are upset when we get generic response to our efforst (even if its true).

But from the other side, I bet many people submit their work to showcase gallery dailly, and for sure it is impossible to answer to all of them. So that’s why you get generic answer.

So now you are in here in Wip section, and you get reall answers from people such as Lunatique or Quadart. They will help u out (sometimes in generic way too :)).

Well I saw many simillar post to this one here, and i think those generic answer could be littlle bit better formed. But you know, you got to live with it. There are too many people to complain about everything.

So R3desiGN if your working hard on your goal you are always going to get better and better (and thats important), and dont worry about any devastating crits, many great artist were never understood by crtis.

I saw many so called art pieces that was nothing to me (and many other people) and so many master pieces (that was blowing my mind) but never understood by critics.

My conclusion is:
R3desiGN I think you have your right to complain about generic answer to your work and cgtalk have to face it, becosue every one can post their work here not only “great” artist but those who will become artist, too.
And I’m confused about anserws to your post here, wasnt this post obvious to happen!?

On the other hand, there are so many bigginer artist here that it is impossible to talk with them for hours about their work, thats why u get only most important information…

#15

mybutterflyiris: mate it was not towards You, all this was directed to the judges. And once again I used those examples to show that the “arguments” do not apply to some works which is dishonest to all of us. That my friend should sadden You. I don’t claim my work is better all I’m saying is that it’s no different to many, many others in the Showcase gallery. Once again my “rant” was not caused by You and was not aimed at You. Where did that even come from? :slight_smile:

#16

i think this is going overboard :frowning:

lets all look at it as to make something better …

dude, your work has lot of potential … maybe the rejection was a sign or something to enhance the artwork even more … even some of my works got rejected as well … but i didn’t let it get to me … instead it only made me think of ways of pushing myself more to come up with something really good …

do check these out, i’m sure it’ll pump your heart crazy! :stuck_out_tongue:

http://danielsimon.com/

http://danielsimon.com/cosmic-motors-vehicles/

http://www.the-area.com/inhouse/bts/daniel_simons_cosmic_motors

http://cargocollective.com/drawthrough

http://www.ryanchurch.com/

when you create something … make sure to think of ways of attracting people to your work … what makes it tick …
there has to be something interesting going on in an image … especially when it comes to transportation … either you can let the vehicle speak through its design…look and feel … or combine all those aspects with someone tampering with it … .looking at it in a peculiar way …

this is one fine example …
http://sydmead.com/v/11/

or best : google image search : syd mead

the lighting in your work is pretty good … but the rider seems to take the attention … maybe it’s his suit color …
if you still want to include the rider … how about making him sit on the bike and look directly at the camera … doing a thumbs up … ( just a crazy idea :wink: ) …
also let the environment color mingle with the bike …
do something crazy with the bike itself … something people haven’t seen before …

looking forward to what you come up with … :wink:

please let me know if you need more help …

cheers dude! :beer:

#17

You can’t compare different styles and use the same metering stick to judge them. For example, you don’t judge cartoony comic book drawing the same way you judge a photorealistic render of a building interior, or an epic sci-fi space battle, or an abstract painting, or a surrealistic painting, or a product render. When judging a piece of artwork, one has to judge it within the context of the stylistic choice, and whether the piece is effective in that stylistic context.

As for the form rejection notice–it was created as a response to all the people who complained that no explanation was ever given to why their work was rejected–some even wondered if they simply didn’t fill out the submission form correctly. We had to create form rejection notices for each main category of rejections, such as missing titles, no real names used for the artist, no description for the image, violation of copyright, too many multiple submission at the same time, artistic/technical problems, etc. We get literally hundreds of submissions daily, and we simply do not have the time to give each rejection a tailored response, and it’s not our job to give you a critique–we simply accept or reject by voting on it. Because there were so many complaints of not knowing why an image was rejected, we had to create a form rejection note to explain what MIGHT be the reasons why an image would be rejected for artistic/technical reasons, and if the artist really wants specific critiques for his image, he needs to post his work in the WIP forums so that the community can help him identify the problems in his image.

It would seem this is obvious–that the form rejection notice is in fact, a form rejection not specific to any image. If this isn’t obvious, then I can add a disclaimer to the notice so that it is so obvious, you’d have to have reading comprehensions problems to miss it.

If you have a better solution for how to run cgtalk’s image submission/judging/critique system, I’m all ears. The current system is the result of years of evolution, listening to community feedback, public debates and flame wars, and lots of discussions among the Forum Leaders behind the scenes. It is the best compromise we have now. None of us are paid staff–we are all volunteers. The number of hours we spend going through all the submissions, giving critiques, moderating the forums–it’s a thankless job that we do to give back to the community. But whenever someone is unhappy (because in the real world, nothing can please everybody–there’s always going to be people who dislike something, no matter how hard you try to make it as universally acceptable as possible), all of a sudden, we’re the villains who are accused of going out of our way to destroy the happiness of hopeful artists.

As for your work, I think it’s got potential. What Bill said is right–when a piece of work is straddling the fence and the wind could blow either way (depending on who the judges are that happens to be voting on your image that day), what that means is your work isn’t strong enough to win over ALL the judges, so that even those who don’t care for the subject matter, style, technique, or artistic sensibility, would still have to grudgingly accept the work, because objectively, it is simply strong enough to withstand any subjective biases.

And as Neville said, every time you face an opportunity to improve yourself, you should see it as a chance for you to learn and grow and become better. Feeling indignant is not going to help you become better. Being receptive to criticism, remaining open-minded, and maintaining a humble attitude is what will help you become the artist you aspire to be. Some of the most amazing artists I’ve ever known are also some of the most humble people I’ve ever known. They never get defensive about their work, and instead, take constructive criticisms seriously and try to learn from them–even if it’s simply making a mental note of how different people see their work and how differently their reactions are, as it would inform them of how the public sees their work.

#18

I think you should just cut out the rider. The bike is incredibly badass, but the rider is just in a green jumpsuit.

btw,
This picture just looks sick.
https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g78/270978/270978_1331730845_large.jpg

#19

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.