Minas Tirith Project || Part 2

#2141

And what about the idea of a game based on the city? If you can contact a team willing to create such a game, you can offer what you already have with the condition that every model or texture they add to the city will be part of the project.
Did you take into consideration the idea of using some buildings more than once? Some of the smallest houses, for example, could very well be in three or four different parts of the city…
If only I had the skills and the time for contributing…

#2142

I cant believe it!!
Please dont stop it!I am so sorry,that i havent enogh time for this,but if its stoppping…i dont know what could i say…please…keep on…next month i try to do something on this…please…

#2143

I strongly believe that you should either follow as it is now (slow, but going anyway) or take new team members. This project has come really far to just get stuck, stoped and forgotten. All projects has its slows down, and I don’t think that’s a reason to just stop it. So come on guys, keep it up the way you can, even slow! I think we all want to see a lot more about this, it would be very sad to see it die here! keep up people!! :smiley:

#2144

Hi guys…just had a PM from one of the people who were concerned about the project. Mainly I’m mentioning that because I think it speaks volumes about the attachment people have built to your work.

At the same time I can relate to the situation. Our team has undergone a similar shrinking of our active members, perhaps even to a greater degree.

I think the 3 main teams have done a huge amount of work and have broken the myth that collabs can’t work for more than an upstart and then fold. We are unique in that I think.

re cignox1 idea…gamedev etc are all the same as it is here…people just aren’t serious to join and keep at it…somehow there needs to be a way to breed a new mentality about collaborating before things improve. I tried recruiting at the gamedev forum and it didn’t produce more than a bunch of emails and people eventually disapearing after a couple weeks.

You already are getting suggestions to accept the new offers of help, and it’s gonna be hard to deal with because most people have no idea how much work it is just in the area of managing helpers…so you are gonna have people saying why stop when you have offers of help…

If you want to ever talk to someone who maybe can sympathize a little bit, lets set a time and maybe we can figure a way to give our projects and the collabs in general another kick in the pants.

Just off the top…ther’s The idea of sponsorship…and that could work well with another idea I’ve been thinking about …maybe even starting a collaborative only forum and get out of the cellar here at CGS…maybe use this as an advert to hilite things to the CGS members, but create a more vibrant community off CGS?

Maybe it’s not gonna happen, but we have come so far it would be a shame to not look for ways to take it to the next level and maybe energize us all with something to get excited about…and yeah, that might include us figuring a way to make some $$ to help pay for some of our efforts to keep it going.

Either way, I also still offer to give my help on the texture end. Maybe even to manage that part for a while if you need a break.

Yeah, I have tons to do on shirowproject too, but I think it’s important that we show some solidarity for fellow teams when the going is rough. It can get discouraging in here and we (as teams and leaders) have been in here a looooong time so it’s probably expected that this would happen to all of us eventually.

I don’t have a ton of time to edit and organize thsi post, so take it as intended in a good way even if it is a bit disjointed. :slight_smile:

#2145

Hmm, yeah, something does need to be done.

Right now I’m gearing up for an overseas move to start a new job, so I really won’t be able to do anything for quite a while. Also, my interest in the project has waned somewhat, I suppose several years of the same thing will do that to a person.

The hard part about getting new people is that no one seems to stick around and actually do anything after promising to do something. I suppose the fact that the movies have been over for a while now is working against our popularity. One thing I’d like to see for new people is having a sort of test that they have to complete before joining the project, something like making a texture/sketch/building. That way they can see what’s involved, as well as giving us something to actually use if they decide not to continue. People may not realise this, but there is work involved in taking someone onto the project, such as finding work for them to do, sending out sketches/templates. This way we could come up with a list of tests and pass them out as someone wants to join.

I still think that taking one area to completion would be the best plan to create new interest in the project. This way we wouldn’t be stuck with having talent spread out across a large area, and parts of the pipeline. Textures could be made and applied right away, and extra bits such as the road would be added in, so it would require a range of skills and tasks, much less mind numbing than what it is at right now.

I don’t think sponsorship would really help the project out much. However much incentive you have for something, financial or otherwise, if it is taking place in someone’s free time, real life commitments are going to win out.

I really wouldn’t like to hand this off to a whole other team to use in a game, if that is what you are suggesting cignox1. Opening it up to someone else’s ideas and level of quality without much control isn’t something I’d be comfortable with.

I think we need to seriously decide on the direction we want to take, even if it is agreed on by only a few members, a plan that we may want to change later is much better than no plan at all. I’ve got a few ideas, and I’ll try writing them all up in the next little while.

Good to hear about the new viewer moving along again, hopefully that will create some new interest.

#2146

keep going guys

awesome project, always was, always will be

#2147

I’ve followed from the beginning, and definatly want it to reach an end. One where I can finally walk through an epic walkthrough of the city.

#2148

Holy cow guys! As a rabid Tolkienite I really admire what you’re doing here, and in fact I had thought something like this would be cool even before I knew about this project. First it’s Minas Tirith, next stop Middle Earth! he says only half jokingly… Anyways, keep up the good work! Wish I could contribute, I just don’t have the modeling skills yet.:sad:

#2149

dont let go, keep up the good work guys.

#2150

once upon a time i offered my help to do modeling for this project, i never even got a reply from Pjanssen. even if you already had too many people modeling at the time being, it would’ve been polite to at least say you’re not interested or whatever. bad project magamenent leads to system’s entropy.

#2151

once upon a time i offered my help to do modeling for this project, i never even got a reply from Pjanssen. even if you already had too many people modeling at the time being, it would’ve been polite to at least say you’re not interested or whatever. bad project magamenent leads to system’s entropy.

I can understand how you might feel, no one like to be ignored…but consider- Maybe he was swamped with the current team members and he just missed your message?
Maybe he replied but the email didn’t get through? etc etc…

On the other side, I think Pjanssen likly put many hours into getting individuals into the project pipeline only to see them get tired, distracted, busy and suddenly leave without ever contributing anything. Once that happens 10 or 20 times over the years he has been doing this , it kind of gets a bit discouraging for anyone I’d imagine. So if you are upset about being ignored once, imagine how he might feel about the people he has had to deal with leaving etc over that long time… :shrug:

And as far as being polite, why do you come in with this crit now?..seems a bit of a kick when a person is down…not very helpful or nice 3d_guru. :hmm:

#2152

And as far as being polite, why do you come in with this crit now?..seems a bit of a kick when a person is down…not very helpful or nice 3d_guru. :hmm:

yea it is a bit of a kick isn’t it? when you get knocked down you bounce back with even greater determination. life is a b*tch, neither did i ask to be eaten out by a cancer, but i’m sure as hell not going to stop fighting now. you know, sometimes hearing the bad news is a lot easier than being ignorant. at least you can strike back with arrogance and even greater determination than before, that’s the only thing that keeps you going

#2153

Pjanssen…at least 3 times i offered you my help but you intentionally (i know this for a fact) ignored me. Once again i tell you that if you need any help at all you can count on me, leaving the past behind.

And i find pretty normal for members to get bored of this project after some months of same modeling because not many can think in perspective or have the same amount of enthusiasm as the leaders have.You should have concentrated on a section and not skip to the next one until it’s completly done and this way the members will see from time to time that they realise something good looking after hard work and have enough start off mood for the next section.

And a test for new members isn t a good idea.

#2154

A couple of things I’d like to say before replying to all the posts:
[ul]
[li]I don’t think I said it very clearly in my previous posts, but in the coming ~10 months, I’m going to be very busy. The first ~5 months will be spent on finishing up things at school, the next 5 months will be filled with my internship. And I’m going to try to squeeze in a vacation of some sorts in between too.This means that I will have little time to spend on this project. What it comes down to is that I can either do a bit of modeling/texturing work, or do the organisation. That’s one of the reasons for raising the progress issues now.[/li][li]I’ve had a quick chat with Emiel and asked him how he thought about the new website for the project. He’s still willing to do it in the coming months. We’re going to work on a webapplication together, and we could combine MT with this on some points. I’m going to meet him on tuesday, then I’ll discuss it in more detail with him too.[/li][li]If I don’t reply to an email, or on MSN (or when I just say I’m busy) it’s not because I want to ignore anyone. It most likely means that I’m just busy at that moment. :)[/li]It can happen that I get an email, read it quickly, but don’t reply to it, and later forget to send a reply. I am aware of this, and I’m going to try to avoid it. But in case I do not reply to you in say a week, just send me a reminder.
[/ul]
Ok here goes:

I agree with Simon about this point. Giving things out of hand this much is not something I’d be very happy with. As Simon points out it means that you no longer have control over the quality and what happens with the material.
And perhaps a bit corny, but still something for consideration, the material we’re making can very easily cause problems when it comes to copyright infringement. So taking that into account I would not be quick to give the material away to ‘just anyone’, because of the lack of control over what happens with it.

I do appreciate your suggestions though, thanks.

Did you take into consideration the idea of using some buildings more than once? Some of the smallest houses, for example, could very well be in three or four different parts of the city…

Yes we did indeed. We’re currently using instancing in the viewer. That basically means that we’ve got a big list (~90 building objects if I’m correct) that points out which building models should be copied where. The problem with instancing buildings is that most of them are specifically built for the surrounding terrain, most often a slope. This makes it hard to place them onto a different slope. We are doing our best with it though :slight_smile:

Hehe you don’t have to apologise for not having enough time :wink: I already find it great to see you’re still following the thread!

Thanks for your encouragement.
The reason for bringing up this point now, is that -in the way I see it- we’re not just having another slowdown at the moment. The development has become increasingly hard. At the same time I see that there are less and less people actively contributing to the project.
When I look to the near future, I can see that I won’t have all too much time myself, and Simon won’t have much time either as he pointed out. And I can say with 99% certainty predict that Flavien will be equally occupied with other things. Without wanting to take all the credit for all the work being done, I do see this as a serious problem for the continuation of the project.

That’s great to hear, thanks a lot!

Very true. Getting people into the project isn’t just a matter of saying welcome to the team. It takes quite a lot of time to get people on track, and keeping them there. Not to mention getting the work that is produced together in one piece.
That’s the main reason I don’t just let everyone join the project.

I agree to this in general. However, I don’t think that it’s a good idea for now. Creating and ‘judging’ an assesment like that is something we just don’t have time for now.
Perhaps requiring a more extensive written message in combination with a portfolio from people who want to join would be an idea. That way they can show us they’re determined and competent enough for a team position.

Yeah I still completely agree to this. If we decide to continue, in whatever way, we should make plans on how to exactly get this organised.

I’m sorry for not replying to your message. I did a bit of searching through my emails, and there was indeed a second message from you with some work examples dating 29 and 31-8-2005 to which I didn’t respond. Now that I read them back I do remember seeing them, but I simply forgot to reply to them. Unfortunately that happens from time to time in busy periods, I hope you’ll understand.
Anyway, you’re welcome to join the team. I’d first like to work out a decent plan for the future before accepting any new people though.
Nice (dutch) icon by the way :wink:

It’s certainly an interesting idea, although hard to set up. And I also think that involving money into it all is going to make matters complicated too, no matter if it’d be a little or a huge pile of cash. I’ll think a bit about your ideas though. :slight_smile:

@xXAneasXx, jayreef, FutureDirector, CaptainBarbosa, blz: Thanks for your encouragements guys :slight_smile:

Now let’s try to sum this all up:
from my post yesterday,
Option nr1, pulling the plug doesn’t really seem to be an option.
Option nr2, putting it ‘on hold’, is in my eyes a bit odd and perhaps indecisive or just postponing option nr1.
Option nr3, continuing the way we do now, is no option for me. It’s simply not going to work out in terms of time, continuity and progress.
Option nr4, cutting on the goals would be very unsatisfying for me, and I dare say for quite a few others, so not really an option either.

So, looking at your suggestions, I’d propose the following:
[ul]
[li]In the very near future we’ll make a decent, realistic design document (setting the creative and technical goals and requirements). I’d like to do this with a small (say max 5) people to avoid discussions that will lead to nothing.[/li][li]When the design document is done, we should split the production into stages and ‘assignments’, so that it’s more clear to people what’s going to happen when and by whom. (‘when’ can be relative, for example ‘music production’ comes after ‘texturing’ and ‘lighting’)[/li][li]In order to get more talent and motivation on board, and at the same time make it easier for everyone to follow the projects progress, we need a new website. Emiel, Tim and I will make this in the coming months (I expect at least 3 months for development).[/li][li]From now on I’m going to focus on the project organisation only (coördinating things, getting new people geared up, putting the stuff together, making sure things go together and go well, etcetera). In the meantime I’m going to help Emiel and Tim with the new website. Only in any free time after this can I actually contribute by doing modeling, mapping, texturing or whatever else needs to be done.[/li][li]We’ll get new people who want to join now on the team, in order to get production going again. I’ll do my best to be more active in getting them on the team and most of all keeping them![/li][/ul]Once again, suggestions are welcome.

#2155

Once again it’s obvious that my reply was very much ignored.I hope you are enjoying yourself Pjanssen. :rolleyes:

#2156

I agree 100% percent with that.

What I meant by the test is not a skills assesment, looking at a portfolio is enough for that. What I am proposing is something that will get someone into the project easily, with a minimum of effort on our side, it would just involve pulling up the next task in the list. This way we can see if someone is actually dedicated to make something for the project, without worrying too much about it. Of course this wouldn’t be meant for right away, it would take a lot of planning, but could be a better way of handling things in the future.

I guess hibernating for the next few months and pulling out of that stronger than before with a clear idea of where to go might be the best plan.

#2157

About the website:
I was thinking about creating a backend part of the site with teammember specific functionalities. This could be things like a list of teammembers and their contact info (more detailed than the publically visible). Or perhaps a part where teammembers can upload their renders to be placed on the website.

I could use some suggestions on this part though, so that I can discuss them with Emiel tomorrow. So what kind of functions would you like/expect to see in the backend for teammembers?

#2158

Well, That’s not exactly what I meant: I suggested to make the data avilable to others (for wichever pourpose, I took games as an example) with the following condition: every piece of work they add to the city (their city) can be added (but that’s your decision) to MT project. In other words you would have all the new material to chose from. The project wouldn’t pass in other hands…

Just an idea (copyright issues aside) :slight_smile:

#2159

As for the website why don’t we try include some eye-catching (and interactive) elements such as shockwave3d and quicktimeVR?

#2160

Everyone updating and taking care of their own sections is a good idea I think; that way it will let the webmasters have more time to do other things.

The first things the new website needs, apart from a new design, is more resources ; somewhere where people can see all the release notes together, more screenshots, perhaps videos,…

Way to go ~ :wise: