Mayas node editor and lack of usable history aka double transform


#1

Hi cgers

usable means what other programs take for granted

edited so i and other novices remember,
for a revolve and history and moving it and profile build curve ,and duplicating it, instancing it, uninstancing it.

most common problems in using a profile curve shape and then revolving them, and not being able to move the result.

come from the fact by default maya plugs or connects the profile curve shape using world space to revolve input curve,

far more useful and reliable is ( weakpoints?FOUND those FAIL)
to set in the node editor profile curve shape to"LOCAL" and connect this to revolve input curve,

then group profile curve and result revolved mesh in same group that can be moved
to wherever you wish and keep profile with mesh

you can then use duplicate input graph on the revolve
and extract and regroup duplicated profile and mesh.

if you wish to deform the mesh on a curve use mash curve warp, unfortunately doesnt take
profile curve with it

all to obtain a 3dsmax, cinema4d like revolve you can actually move in the viewport.

i am a take the profile curve press revolve and take and move it all as component type of person.

please see attach pic
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93465359@N03/47940510292

hurrah sorry no

TESTED AND FAILED
please see attached pic
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93465359@N03/47940533028

this method depends on groups, to move, no group no move together

INSTANCES, work ok,

converting instance to object breaks the revolve connection. in fact the revolve never existed
maya deletes history as expected.

What we would like is convert instance to object WITH ITS OWN HISTORY
like 3dsmax. No option in toolbar?
for a 3dsmax uninstance and keep history:
did find this old script
path

https://www.kurgan.dk/oldsite/mel.html1

makeUnique.mel
but has problems if not in one group.

groups or locators acting as groups dont appear linked to anything at all in the node editor
this may be my error.
FAIL because the group is acting as the transform for the revolve and profile.

Bigger problems appear because groups act as folders for objects as well as transforms
and you are defineately want to group say pipes walls and windows for a building
an instance what might be a nested group. Maya cannot do this,
converting to an object means it will probably disappear.

this is why you would never build a building or engine with component build history,
in maya double transform ensures it breaks
and things disappear.

at a finished poly object hierachy its fine, animated characters ok,
keeping what built that poly object hierachy as well
and avoiding double transform good luck to you, if you arent a rocket scientist.


this is an example of why best to do remove double transform from the ground up.

we basically need a script that says whatever move the 3d operator makes say +xyz, maya does 2+xyz
so we need a script -xyz after everymove. who the hell came up with that in the firstplace.

i put that as maya bugfix No.1 been there since version1.

Where is the button or slot in the node editor
to remove all double transforms. Maya needs it.


#2

what about really learning the tool before your usual non sens rant.

Don’t you see that the revolve node is having a pivot input?
So if you want a live connection between your curve pivot and the revolve node just connect the pivot from the curve transform node to the input pivot of the revolve node.


#3

onnouris appreciate all help
but didnt want a massive post with answer simple so edited to top post.


#4

onnouris appreciate all help
but didnt want a massive post with answer simple so edited to top post.


#5

man there is no “it should”, if you understand the type of data and how data is flowing you will understand why it is that way and why it’s much more flexible.
And if not, well just forget about Maya or even worse Houdini cause you will have to plug things all the day.

for instance you could simply plug a locator if you want or something else to control it.

Have you read what you have plugged? your first try was “…minus…” that’s why you have the invert.
Then you are connecting the “select handle” which of course will not give you what you want.
The goal here is not to connect random stuff to random stuff just because you can connect them.

So to make it simple just connect a locator it will be easier to manipulate


#6

also one thing, in you image i’m seeing that you are connecting the “message” slot in blue, there is simply no data at all traveling from this slot.
So if you are expecting a result from this slot you will get nothingt.

Also keep in mind that usually for some nodes if you hit the " T " key it will show you the manipulators you got at the beginning.


#7

onnouris appreciate all help
but didnt want a massive post with answer simple so edited to top post


#8

a user sent a comparison with 3dsmax,

which speed wise is way faster than maya at this task,
plus 3dsmax has any edit poly, and modifiers on top.

most importantly above all else the ability to convert an instance
to object and KEEP its own personal history stack xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

please seehttps://www.flickr.com/photos/93465359@N03/40939643283

3damax based on autocad, history, fairly usable,
maya based on alias. it was only ever one surface and a bunch of curves hierarchy
that never moved?
just trying to understood why double transform was created.


#9

My conclusion is that every time you hit a wall you are blaming the tool, rather than blaming yourself and your lack of knowledge on Maya fundamentals.

Hierarchy is a fundamental thing to understand also things like local/world space.

The Edit poly in max could be simply seen as mesh shape, so if you plug a Mesh shape every time you need a “pause” on top of the chain it’s like having an edit poly.
And after that you can have nodes that will affect that shape like the modifiers.

Also you could also simply “fork” your shape kind like an instance but actual geometry by simply connecting the output shape to as many shapes as you want. That way the result will propagate, but these new shapes will have their own transforms to move them where ever you want and keeping the stack (you could also give them the same transform).
So you have much more flexibility than you will ever have in max.

For the curve deformer just use the “curve wrap” no filp or anything like that.


#10

redited see top post as starting to understand the true nature of mayas double transform
and how it screws up every level of the node editor.

maya claims hierarchy then why dont groups appear connected to anything when i press up down connection

please copy maya mash curve warp to motion paths to stop cage flipping, for no reason

please copy 3dsmax convert instance to object with personal history option


#11

for a 3dsmax uninstance and keep history:
did find this old script
path

https://www.kurgan.dk/oldsite/mel.html

makeUnique.mel

got it to work on single group instances and keep history
not sure if doing something wrong if i had a big list of instances.

didnt work here as to avoid double transform part of the instance had to be outside the instance group.
please see
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93465359@N03/47940533028

also
path
http://www.sigillarium.com/blog/lang/en/
mentions he has a version not the on there.

maybe a mel genius can mix and match to get a 3dsmax like solution.

groups and locators still not linking in node editor.


this is an example of why best to do remove double transform from the ground up.

we basically need a script that says whatever move the 3d operator makes say +xyz, maya does 2+xyz
so we need a script -xyz after everymove. who the hell came up with that in the firstplace.

i put that as maya bugfix No.1 been there since version1.


#12

:man_facepalming: yeah sure fill a bug report on this, it will be funny

also you really don’t need to edit 10 times every single post and removing things,
it just makes the whole thread a complete mess and hard to follow


#13

sorry onouris was trying to make
my issue with mayas double transform clearer,

here took a cube
extruded faces
selected edges
converted poly edges to curve 4 times
had a plane
used poly edge to curve as crossection
extruded surface using 4 curves

first error normals not consitent on extruded surfaces bad for history

from here on history and instancing only works if you select and do not group the original box

groups that have box and curves even using local not world connection have double transform.

any instancing of the group only partially succeeds surf extrusions fail

so even tidying up the outliner is not possible because you cannot group.

grouping with history gives leaf transform errors if you have instances you
have to delete instances to un group.


3dsmax cinema4d houdini do not have this issue.

please seehttps://www.flickr.com/photos/93465359@N03/47975849688

to me maya is a one shot poly modeller that hands over the issue to houdini to solve.

could it be solved by having the top of hierarchy group or locator somehow being
scripted or linked in the node editor, not sure how other 3d programs avoid it to a lesser extent
though groups don’t seem to appear in the node editor linked to anything


#14

by the way double transformations are not a maya thing, you can have them in houdini too


#15

Any rewards, prizes on bug reports? Money, or?