Maxon acquires ZBrush!

#45

I admire your candour. Embarrassing if true.

Why would I be embarrassed about not knowing how, when or why to use vector maths? In 30 years of doing 3D, not once have I ever wished to know how to perform vector calculations. Nor should anyone else ever feel bad for not knowing any part of the software they use. Going around trying to berate other people for not knowing one specific function out of the 10,000 offered by C4D though, that’s something you should be embarrassed about.

I can link an upvector on a rig. I can assign a vector rail along a spline, I can make a spline with the vectorizer. Do I know the maths behind those vector functions? Nope.

Regarding scene nodes. Literally the main point of scene nodes is to act as a backend that for the most part people will never have to see or use. The scene manager will sit on top of the node system to give an artist friendly UI for the majority of people.

I don’t know how any self respecting artist working in 3D wouldn’t have basic Trig or understand vector maths. If a client came to you and wanted a visualisation of their winery and they wanted images of wine bottles with a thin layer of dust only on the up facing surfaces you couldn’t knock up a simple shader tree? Really?

What does setting up a dust layer via nodes have to do with knowing and understanding vector maths? If I were using Octane I would assign a falloff node as an opacity mask for the dust. If I were using c4d’s built in engine then I would use the terrain mask shader. There you go, I’ve just accomplished your task without having to adjust, understand or perform a single vector calculation myself.

Do you go around physical art forums acting high and mighty when somebody doesn’t know the chemical compound that makes up the graphite in their pencils?

Guess what, I don’t do my own car oil changes either.

#47

All it takes is half a dozen bored blender trolls to bring down this entire mod-less forum. See you on core4d where your holier than thou posts get deleted. Had enough of this cesspit. Bookmark deleted after after 22 years.

C’ya cgtalk

#48

That statement says more about you than the C4D userbase you’re insulting.

So, the amount of real designers who don’t know trigonometry and vector math are in the negatives. Really?

If you’re going to brag about having a high degree of proficiency in high school mathematics, you ought to at least demonstrate you have a firm grasp on grade school math.

By your line of reasoning, traditional 2D artists are just as valid in claiming that those who use software can’t call themselves real artists because they are unable to produce quality work using traditional media and therefore lack sufficient mastery of form, colour, line, shape and perspective. If writing code is their only means to create visual representations, they have no business being in visual arts and should take up a more suitable career field such as cancer research in a lab surrounded by beakers and microscopes where all the other eggheads belong. Am I right?

When one resorts to insults and patronizing remarks, it’s only natural to seek convenient disengagements by claiming TLDR.

#51

Yet, you still took the time to respond nonetheless. Hilarious!

#54

You don’t get to dictate anything. I choose to interact or not interact with others as I want.

For the record, I have never visited Blender Artists. I prefer Discord. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if being a condescending jerk is your MO in whichever virtual space you happen to dwell in.

While I don’t profess to know everything, I do know your assumptions about the target C4D userbase is wholly incorrect and you’ve been rightfully called out on your elitism.

You’re welcome to follow your own advice with respect to leaving replies.

#55

When there’s no-one left on here to argue with or insult, could you close the door and lock up on your way out, Info? Ta.

#56

I think 3dFluff is getting Infograph confused with IceCaveMan (who is on Core 4d). A while back, almost every thread was derailed post subscription announcement with Blender talk. It’s an impressive program, but so far not my cup of tea. Trying to get into it as my health allows.

I’m absolutely convinced you’re that clown I ran into over on Blender Artists. Same modus operandi, same level of ignorance and won’t stop trying to bait when the conversation is dead.

Sounds like you get into the same arguments over there. It’s not worth it, Info. You’ve got the skills to be a great teacher. You will feel remarkably better about your day having helped people.

#58

‘Gormless imbeciles’? Cheers… Merry Christmas to you too. (I assume you’ll be spending it alone again.)

#60

There’s a new C4D forum coming next year, some months down the track but on the way. Maxon isn’t involved with it, and sad posts from ex-C4D users who are still angry and obsessed with Maxon and C4D won’t be an issue on it. You won’t be seeing long pro-Blender threads on it either. Merry Christmas everyone.

#62

IN - just a heads up as a courtesy. I haven’t read what you’ve written above, and won’t be reading your reply either. I did notice you were a prolific commenter in this thread., but the reason I didn’t dive in for a debate this time is that I didn’t read any of your comments, and again, won’t be reading what you write in response.

On reflection I’ll move the new forum up a month or two. People who are interested won’t have too much trouble finding out about it. And people - largely ex-C4D users - whose main interest in C4D is comparative threads referencing other DCC"s can continue to use the forums that they’re already using right now.

The new forum will be moderated appropriately.

Happy holidays everyone.

#63

I don’t think the approach of arguing with and insulting people on cinema 4d forums and then asking the (now insulted) participants if they want tutorials from you in Blender/houdini is working.

Post a tutorial on youtube. I’ll watch it! DM me if you have one up.

I’m dabbling in Blender while I wait and see if C4d S26 brings any value for my money. I bought a few beginner courses and I’m seeing if I can get a Wacom pen plus my old broken hands with RSI and nerve damage to work well with Blender’s middle mouse heavy interaction (C4d works GREAT with my noodle hands).

I’m definitely hoping that Blender’s a good sculpting alternative to what will become a zBrush subscription I can’t really justify, despite wanting to learn it badly.

#64

I know several studios that are using Blender along with the Quad Remesher plugin for their sculpting needs…seems to be a popular alternative.

#65

Wow, the perpetual Indie license of quadremesher is a great price. Even the perpetual pro version which works with all supported platforms, including C4d, is reasonable.

#66

I’ve no plans to do youtube tutorials, this forum has made it perfectly clear they’re not interested in learning simple maths so it’s no point discussing it further. I realise now why I see so many comments of C4D forums about the ‘difficulty’ in switching to Blender and Houdini it’s because they’re lacking in basic knowledge. H and B expect a level of proficiency that some C4D users have managed to do without, my advice would be to skill up because H and B are going to change the Mograph landscape for good.

Blender Foundation has employed full-time developers for the sculpting and retopo tools so these areas will be getting serious attention in the coming months. No plans have been released yet concerning retopo tools and whether that means a new remesher is planned but the developer has produced his own highly regarded retopo addon, retopoflow.

ZBrush users on the ZBrushCentral forum and reddit are venting their frustration and it’s not the end of free updates that really bothers them, it’s Maxon’s development and push towards SaaS. I thought this was quite spot on from a C4D user https://www.reddit.com/r/ZBrush/comments/ry48r2/thats_settled/hrnp5mr/

When the dust settles Maxon will be further diversified from the lame duck C4D and yet another income stream will be flowing directly into the Nemetchek coffers and Maxon’s current record income levels will be increased to new all-time highs. It’s all about the Benjamins.

#67

I would like to say, on behalf of many, it would really be a shame to see you go. Don’t let the rantings of @Infograph ruin your view on this once great community. We’re not all like that. That said, as a current Blender user of 12 year and former C4Der for about 10, all I can say is that trolls come from all communities and skill levels. Brush it off and remember what is essential to your happiness and who is not. Stand tall and don’t let others drag you down.

@Infograph: As somebody who went to college majoring in Physics and Computer Science, I have all sorts of experience in advanced mathematics such as vector calculus. However, as somebody who’s also been a CG artist for 33 years, nearly 29 of them in a professional capacity, I have never EVER needed said math experience in the service of my art or my clients. I can see how, if one were writing complex addons or shaders, one might. Most people - 99% - probably never will. It doesn’t make them newbies either. I can guarantee you that there are amazing artists out there with more experience than either one of us who can barely solve for x=2+2. I understand that you’re passionate. Just dial it back. Thanks…

In the hullabaloo of people arguing back and forth, I think that the narrative here has been lost. Let’s set it back on track with something that I don’t think has been noted here yet. (At least I think that it hasn’t. Lots of cross-talk. )

#68

might be one or the other, since mesh sculpt maxon showed that they understand and want something in terms of a sculpting tool as an arsenal for its 3d adopters.

Now if they can figure out a way to bring part of zbrush engine to a more user friendly stand point, that would be a win win.

I always wanted to dive in to sculpting, but it always was the new ubrush updates, features, wondering if what I learned last year still applies to the last version. So yeah, if anyone could bring this and make it a bit more user friendly, take it out of the shadows of hunting tutorials to learn one thing, I think maxon is the one. Great job!!!

#69

It’d be a rough retrofit though. ZBrush is as fast as it is because of how it represents the canvas. The pixol is, fundamentally a 2.5D element which contains X & Y data as well as depth, color, and orientation. It’s not strictly a 3D system. That’s why it’s so CPU dependent and doesn’t care all that much about your fancy $3k GPU.

I recall reviewing ZBrush v1.23b back in 2002 or so. It most certainly emphasized that 2.5D workflow much more. R3 was the real turning point for 3D in ZBrush. Still, even today, everything is built on top of that ultra fast pixol tech, a version of which Maxon could’ve likely implemented themselves without violating IP rights long, long ago if they really wanted to.

Nah. I don’t think that they’ll integrate any part of ZBrush into Cinema4D. Doesn’t really seem to be their style. If anything, I expect that they’ll follow a similar path to how they’ve handled working with Adobe products and tighten up the workflow between these two apps.

I also wouldnt be super shocked if they bundled ZBrush Core (or some version) with Adobe’s CC suite just like they have Cinema4D Lite. That seems to be their winning move since they’re so chummy chummy with Adobe these days.

If any of their own apps would stand to benefit then it would be the recently acquired Forger 3D. Maybe. Still the same sort of shoehorning issue.

#70

@cookepuss

I’m not going to go over old ground again but if you haven’t had any need for a modicum of vector maths you’ve probably never used Xpresso and won’t be using the new Scene Nodes or Blender’s Geometry Nodes.

Today’s Entagma tutorial is a perfect example of how understanding of vector maths is useful if not essential in production. I think you’re dead wrong in thinking 99% of people don’t need this knowledge, current C4D users maybe but not 99% of 3d artists. Maybe this is why the C4D showreel looks so lacklustre these days, everyone is using the same high level tools like Mograph and XP nothing is pushing the envelope anymore and why Houdini is the bleeding edge for Mograph now.

My clients want to see data represented in ways they’ve never seen before so wiping an effector through some clones just won’t cut the mustard, I have to create bespoke effects which are art directable, you can’t do this without going beyond the confines of high level tools. I’m sure many studios left C4D for Houdini for this exact reason unfortunately Scene Nodes arrived long after those horses bolted and those who are left simply aren’t interested.

#71

Oh. Not true. Not at all. Use(d) both extensively… I don’t want to rehash this subject either. However, truth be told, there numerous instances where you can use XPresso or Geometry Nodes that don’t require you to know more than simple math. Of course, if you WANT to go deep to math town then that’s up to you. Still, it’s not an absolute necessity.

That’s the beauty of it. 30 years ago, yeah, you needed to have a whole “Beautiful Mind” thing going on to get anything of any note done. No other choice. Today’s apps, even at their deepest levels, are accessible enough to even the most mathematically challenged artists. As a more technically inclined artist, more elegant doors open for to you. You’re right. Most artists, for better or worse, will take the brute force path instead and still accomplish the same thing - albeit slower (usually). That’s perfectly valid too.

It reminds me of Tesla VS Edison. Edison was all about trial and error, doing things the hard way to get a result. Tesla was more about sitting down first, doing the math, and avoiding all of that excessive laboring. Not knowing complex math doesn’t make you inept or any less of a power user. It just means that you don’t know math well - or just don’t want to use it. It’s the difference between driving a straight line from destination A to B and taking some squirrely zig-zaggy route instead. You’ll get there all the same., but not as efficiently.

Your way works for you. That’s 100% fine. I get it. For a great many things, I would much rather work out the math first instead too. For some things, I would rather just jump in and take a more natural, holistic or common sense approach. Unless I’m absolutely concerned with performance, I don’t care if my node graph looks like a Rube Goldeberg device. Some times, I’m not concerned about blistering speed and more about just jumping in and getting done.

All told, I would have to imagine that you’re in the minority. Most artists probably aren’t mathematically inclined. THEN AGAIN… I could be wrong. Would make for an interesting poll, knowing how much mathematical experience each artist has. I wouldn’t be shocked to see the overwhelming majority stop at either basic algebra or geometry. Most high schools pretty much stop there and treat anything else after such as Calculus as electives. That doesn’t even factor in the great many CG artists who don’t even have college under their belt, much less college level math.

ANYWAY… This thread’s about ZBrush and Maxon. ZBrush users are f-ed. Good luck with that. :slight_smile:

#72

I know what the thread is about but you’re missing the point I’m making or I’m not making it well enough!

Having the basics of vectors in your repertoire is just so useful it shouldn’t be ignored. None of the maths I do in my 3D work is anything like as complex as I did when I was a scientist. Knowing and being able to visualise normals, tangents, dot products and cross products etc is the most powerful free plugin you can get yourself for any 3D software. This isn’t beautiful mind level stuff it’s very simple maths than anyone with any ability can be taught. Once people understand a few key concepts they can be well on their way to making their own effectors or even particle systems from a handful of nodes.

Srek claimed earlier than Maxon had modest expectations about Scene Nodes usage, I simply don’t believe that. I have never used it but it appears far more complete than Blender’s geometry nodes yet the Blender community is creating unbelievably complex procedural examples while Scene Nodes appears largely ignored by the C4D community. If Maxon want to see a return on their investment in Scene Nodes they should seriously think about upskilling their userbase with foundational tutorials in simple vector concepts.

For the record my node trees always look like Heath Robinson contraptions…

Anyway back to ZBrush. There is a very similar level of disappointment from the ZBrush community as there was from the Redshift community when it was announced that Redshift would go onto subscriptions. Yes ZBrush users are fucked but will many actually do anything, will they jump to 3D Coat or Blender? I doubt many of the Redshift community who freaked out on their forum actually left for another renderer. Some may have left but most will have grudgingly signed up for subscriptions and the ZBrush users will be no different.

After all is said and done it’s easier to shafted in the wallet and stick with what you know than go through the effort of learning a new App, many here made that decision. So for companies like Maxon who are acquiring assets it’s a relatively safe bet, get a load of social media hate for a few weeks then sit back and watch the profits roll in. As night follows day another Maxon acquisition will follow the ZBrush one. This is one train that’s far from its destination.