ICE, not so NICE?

#21

In my opinion there are quite nice set of compounds already in the package. Certainly a lot more than what Particle Flow has in max. It shouldn’t be too hard to get started with your basic simulation, and when you want to start digging deeper, you can, unlike in PFlow (other than scripts).

Also don’t forget the dedicated ICE section on Softimage forums.
http://community.softimage.com/forumdisplay.php?f=86
There’s compound database and everything :stuck_out_tongue: (albeit the collection is somewhat thin as of yet).

Heh yes true that. XSI hasn’t been much interest to me previously though, and it’s mainly ICE that made me seriously consider it. I’m on trial now, and probably won’t be making a switch just yet, but it’ll be under continuous close examination from now on.

#22

From what I have seen of Ice in the demo vids and threads on various Cg forums, It supposed to be much more than just particles or FX. However the Softimage guys focused on releasing XSI 07 with particles as a main thrust for ICe since that was often criticized ( somewhat justifiably ) as being the weak point of of an otherwise pretty strong and solid application ( easpecially in the character animation department ).

Which brings me to the my interest In XSI with ICE as a possible choice of tool for my 3d work over 3dsmax. The best thing I like about max is its ’ all in one approach ’ which meant that small studios or even individuals could use it out of the box and produce quality artworks and animation.

I consider my self fairly competent in grasping new idaes and knowledge but had always stayed away from scripting and coding because I want to concentrate on only a few areas and not spread myself too thin having to learn multiple disciplines. Yet at times I could find myslelf stuck with an idea which was pretty difficult to do using the standard tools found in Max and those were the times when I felt something like ICE could come in handy for us folks who don’t want to code.

I am particularly interested inknowing how future versions of ICE could help in the Character animation department particularly the rigging and skinning process ( If I understand correctly , ICE manipulates Point Data ).

From what Little I know, ICE ROCKS !

#23

It’s an unsupported feature but ICE can set data in Kinematics node, look the Community site there are videos showing kinematics and how to activate this feature.

I have to say that from what I saw at Siggraph, ICE will play a big whole in new tools for character rigging.

#24

Rendering out of XSI via MR. XSI 7 ships with a suite of volume shaders that are perfect for atmospheric and environmental effects. Really, Really fast too.

Votch

#25

Like ICE muscles ? seriously they should look to get that in in the next update. Maybe release ‘ICE-packs’ kind of extensions which are updated frequently and ‘ahem’ … free !!

#26

This guy is a legend - he was my old Maths tutor at the NCCA - very clever guy, great teacher. Man I will have to dig out some old course notes

#27

I forgot to add my 5cents. I think ICE is a great innovation for Softimage, it is powerful and seems to be able to deliver some truly stunning results at relative ease. I say relative because you can seemingly create fantastic effects all in one application rather than jump from Realflow<>Maya<>XSI or something like that.

I am looking to really develop my ICE knowledge, i will be getting stuck into it sometime in the next few months, i’m currently nuts deep in Houdini which is an altogether different and more complex beast!

When I get some time on ICE I will definatley share my findings/frustrations on here

#28

With all due respect, with almost anything you have to know a bit about what you’re doing before you can actually do it. You’re an animator? you learned about animation before you could produce decent animation. This is especially true where something like ICE is concerned. Again, with due respect, some of us got out there and learned about it ourselves, we didn’t wait for someone to hand it to us on a plate. These days with the internet it’s a lot easier but when I started - nearly 30 years ago now - I had no choice, I had to work it out myself, there was no-one to teach me so I bought books. My degree is in Creative Photography with a little bit of A level maths chucked in, long before you could get your hands on a computer so I was hardly qualified for it but I wanted to do it so I figured it out. That’s what you do with CGI, you figure it out. And the only way you get better at figuring it out is to do more figuring out.

It’s tough at first and the learning curve is shallow at the outset but stick with it, it’ll save you time in the long term.

In the meantime, maybe this will help a bit.

http://www.kim-aldis.co.uk/drupal-6.1/ICE_BasicFlocking

I’m conentrating on both basic theory followed up with practical implimentation in ICE. Keep an eye on the blog, I’m going to be doing more.

#29

Im a new user of XSI, but I’ve being using MAX for more than 10 years, so jumping from standard particles to Particle Flow and then to nodal systems like houdini and ICE requires some time and patience, specially because each software has its own “construction blocks” so you might be doing lightning fast RBDs in Houdini while in MAX you have to set up more proceses, the great thing about ICE is that is lies somewhere in the middle, I got the chance to take a sneak peak of ICE in the trip I made to Montreal last March and I was amazed by the power of it, besides the explanation was done by one of the architects of the software so it was amazingly simple for him, now that I’ve been playing with it I feel confortable, but still need some background of XSI.

I recommend to Digital Tutors DVDs; for XSI starters or migrating (like me) Artist Guide to XSI7 is great starting point since is more production focused with very hands on examples. Then you can jump into Introduction to ICE (also from Digital Tutors) great DVD.

Any how certain tools in all of the applications need some math and basic knowledge of the nodal workflow, I just wanted to share some great links about math and nodal video tuts

Math: http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_video.php?v=613
Nodal workflow: http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_video.php?v=15

Those are the best tuts Ive foud so far …

Cheers!

#30

I hear what you’re saying and to an extent I agree with you. But you have to look at it from the perspective that a lot of people got into animation and they’re used to working with a completely graphical and visual interface to accomplish things. They push buttons and don’t have to think about the math that is needed behind the scenes, it’s a completely black box way of working. And people tend to specialize or at least they find things come easier to them then others. I’m a much better modeler then I am a texture painter and I’m a better animator then I am a rigger. As much as I try, that seems to stay constant. So I look for training material to help me improve my rigging or texturing skills. ICE is a completely differnt way to work then what I’m used to and I want to learn it and I want to put in the time but I definately will need resources for that other then just getting in there and tinkiering with it. Nodes are fairly new to me. I come from Llightwave and they just implemneted nodes with version 9 and it’s primarily used for surfacing. And while I learned to navigate nodes somewhat, I still have difficulty. Now, I’m using XSI and they’ve introduced this whole new way to work. I just want there to be good material out there that will help me learn it. I think that’s different then people expecitng things to be handed to them on a plate.

#31

The thing is, ICE is a graphical tool. But you still need to build an understanding of whatever it is you’re trying to do in it. It’s less about learning ICE, more about learning techniques and methods to use in ICE. Rather like learning to script is easy (ish), learning to script XSI is a whole nother thing. What I’m saying here, clumsily, is that you shouldn’t just limit yourself to ICE resources; get out there and look for the underlying methods. If you want to build flocking tools in ICE then you need to check out articles and sites that deal with flocking - unless someone shows you how it works in ICE first, of course ;). Which is why I dealt with methods using drawings before getting into it with ICE.

these days people do specialise more than they used to, mostly because the field is so much broader, I don’t think it’s possible to be a generalist in the true sense of the word.

A lot of the disconcertment I’m seeing here is rather more pessimistic than it need be. Give it, and yourselves time to get to know the tool, don’t expect to just pick it up and go; if it’s not your field that’s never going to happen.

I think also you’re going to be spoilt for choice with all the ICE videos people are building. It’s so easy once you get the hang of it to just pop impressive stuff out. And it’s fun too.

#32

So where is something like the “Animators Survival Kit” for ICE or Houdini for that mater? Right now for ICE it’s more like I’m staring at a book by Joseph Muybridge and trying to learning 3D character animation.

Look I know most things worth knowing are life long goals. I’ve never had a class on almost anything I use sans Illustrator that I use daily for work, so I’m not expecting things handed to me on a plate. Still, do I have to start where you did 30 years ago? No.

You can’t tell me with a straight face (or internet smiley) that if you were offered a bit of insight by someone your senior in experience on something you’re having a hard time conceptually or technically understanding that you’d turn it down just for mental vanity and prod blindly ahead.

Can you honestly tell me that when you started with photography you did not listen to a single word an instructor or peer said or take up anything your read in a book be it conceptual or technical?

I think there is a disconnect here- what some of us are asking for is not how to become an uber genius TD but instead just a little help getting pointed in the right direction(s) conceptually and technically. How do I sit up- not how do I walk or run.

Let me put it this way- I’ve got better things to do with my time due to where I’m at in my life, and my skill set than to learn the ins and outs of programing for 3D so that I can create amazing things in ICE. That time would be better off spent working on certain “art/illustration” skills, basic camera work, composition skills etc. There is only so much time in life, no?

If I enjoyed what a lot of you TDs are doing as much as I enjoy working on “art skills” then this would be reversed and all my time would be flowing towards those goals. Trust me when I say I have the utmost respect for all of you that I’ve come into contact with. It is an art and under appreciated/hidden skill in it’s own right.

However, I do need to do the occasional basic rocket blast off, smoking camp fire, basic particle effect etc. In the package I used previously setting this up, on a basic level, was not too hard. Pre-ICE, XSI, for me, sucked for the most part when it came to particles. All I want to do is get back to where I was before I started using XSI- and I don’t think it requires the largest leap in skill set to do such things.

I could just sit back and beg every XSI TD under the moon for a compound on each of my basic needs OR I could come here and ask what I have been- where to start in your wisdom if I/we just want to do some basic ICE effects and aren’t expecting to become TDs.

It’s fine- so far the_Jaco is the only person to give reference to any material (which I have checked out and am slowly reading with Neanderthal like speed and comprehension). Right now I’m just having fun learning ICE like an idiot- doing cool things, but not feeling like I’m 100% control of everything and trying not to look the guy behind the curtain in the eye too much! Even in the time since I last posted I’ve learned quite a bit just dinking around in ICE and reading a few snippets on basic low level 3D graphics terminology and math.

#33

You guys are talking two different languages here.

        first: you don't need to be an Euler to do cool stuff with ICE.
        Of course that more you know about Linear algebra, Math, physics and programming... more you will be able to use the low level stuff.
       Think that big studios have their own software because they *NEED* to access the code, to make the tools work the way they need it.
        That's what ICE is, it puts you under the hood and let you change the way things work. IF YOU WANT.
        90% of the time if you want to do cool effects, you will NOT go this path.
        Honestly it's rare to see someone with a lot of math doing a very exciting demo in ICE.
        Everything now is gonna be more interesting because the WAY it was done in ICE, then what it's doing. 
        Right now we are figuring out the way things work and NOT how pretty they are.
        Who's gonna make nice effects is the artist who gets the tool. The same way it always have been, but now instead of Softimage developing tools and giving to you, you can do your own and we can all share.
        
        If you don't go this path of develop tools, you can use and abuse of ICE high level customization, which are the packaged particle and deformation effects.
        Isn't it enough? Obviously not.. So this is why Softimage put online the community site.
        There you can go and download from (the growing library) of ICE compounds, what other people with the necessary skills have been doing: [http://community.softimage.com/downloads.php?do=cat&id=15](http://community.softimage.com/downloads.php?do=cat&id=15)
        
        The particle tools in ICE are for sure the best particle tools in the market right now. There's a huge library of nodes to control things, particle emission, conditionals, getters, goals, states...
        Nothing of this will require you to have deep knowledge of Math or the underlying concepts, no high level node will put you over a linear algebra book that you will barely understand on the first place.
        
        "I need to learn ICE" right now means learn the basics of connect and disconnect nodes, please don't come with a book about math because that's not the case for most people here. 
       Artists need to learn why one port is called vector and the other is called scalar. Pretty much like the rendertree is.
  
  How many of you ever went to the rendertree to use a dot product node? How many used a mix2colors?
  That's it, just learn the necessary nodes if your thing is not math or use the engineering power behind ICE.
  
  Even if you read the whole Math for Computer Graphics you will NOT jump on ICE and just make your own Cage Deformer. It's gonna take a while and you will need more than just "read the magic book" to get this kind of thing working.
        
  There's some nice training material coming out, the i3d stuff looks good, Digital Tutors have some interesting DVDs too, Softimage has videos online, Kim did videos and tutorials, Brad Gabe did a bunch of interesting stuff, one focused specifically for artists. Steven Caron and I also contributed as many other people. Forgive me if I forgot to mention anyone.
       Helge Mathee is hosting a workshop in the community site sharing his knowledge of how to solve a production problem with ICE. How many of you are there learning?
       I believe that who want's to learn is learning.
       
        What Kim was saying is just that internet is making everything easier than it was before, if you are not lazy and just spend a bit of time reading and trying things, you will figure it out.
#34

Another good place to learn ICE:
http://softimage.wiki.avid.com/xsidocs/new_ICEInteractiveCreativeEnvironment.htm

the help.

look this page specially http://softimage.wiki.avid.com/xsidocs/ICE_particles_OverviewofICEParticles.htm#Rms44910

Look how much information is in there and how little math it requires you to understand any of it.

#35

I was watching one of Helge’s tutorials on that new Softimage blog, and I just realized something.

ICE will allow programmers the ability to program faster.

I, the artist, have no idea of what nodes to grab, unless I mimick the actions of someone with a mind like Helge’s – or drop in a pre-made compound.

#36

All good points Thiago and well stated! You described the disconnect that was forming the basis of an argument well and hopefully it will/has defused it.

Truth be told that I’m finding ICE very friendly for me to do things I couldn’t have imagined doing with any standard particle set already. Heck, just the ability to pass certain information from the ice tree to the render tree so easily has opened a lot of doors for me. States are simply amazing to work with etc. There is something very rewarding about having an idea that can be done in ICE and proding through until completion with procedural tools.

It’s like things pre-ICE use to go from 1-10 with “artists” being at 1 and TDs and the like at 9-10 in the power they could easily tap into. Now it’s 1-100, and with that artists even get a ten fold kick in what they can do- while more experienced users get an amazing magnitude of power open to them.

Since this thread began there has already been a rush to help “artists” understand the basics of ICE with DT and i3D making tutorials, and others promising to have their own take on what lower level ICE training should be. Nothing handed to people on a plate, just the basics to get them started in working everyday in ICE on a basic level.

Thanks again Thiago for helping advance this thread in the right direction.

#37

A bit of abstraction might help:

   It's useful to understand what kind of form data can take: scalars, vectors, colors, matrices, etc... (they are represented by differently colored ports). I think there are 16 types of data in ICE.
   
   You can generate, combine and manipulate data by using the nodes. The data types have to "fit" with each other with respect to the operations you want to perform. For example, it's meaningless to multiply boolean data (TRUE or FALSE values) by a scalar (a single number). Because TRUE * 4 = ???. But you can multiply a vector (a row or column of numbers, usually 3 or 4) by a scalar, and thereby scale the vector. Like so: 4* (1, 2, 3) = (4*1, 4*2, 4*3) = (4, 8, 12)
   
   The next thing to understand would be that data flows through the nodes. A bit like water through pipes. Each time in enters a node something happens with the data. It changes size or shape or whatever. In ICE trees data flows from left to right and top to bottom (the last "ICE Tree" node). What you see on your screen is the state of the data after it has gone through all the relevant nodes.
   
   With the nodes you can manipulate data. For example you can extract positions (as vectors with 3 elements because they represent x,y,z respectively) and do someting with them; like multiply by a scalar (and hence scale all the points selected around an origin)
   
   You can also control the flow of data with loops or decision making nodes (that's the "programming" bit)
   
   
   So, if you want to create an ICE effect, try to find out 

a) what data needs to be manipulated.
b) how to access the data
c) what to do with the data (how to shape it; the algorithmic part)

d) debug

Make sure to keep track of the data as it flows through nodes because it may change type and hopefully value.

#38

See ? we can understand that. Thats what we need. Rudimentary Cg math and practical usgae of such nodes. As an Artist I don’t wnat to do Hi-end TD stuff. There are better people than me for those.

What I DO want is an ability to develop small tools for my own personal use that make me focus more on aesthetics and other artistic stuff that is more relevant to what I want to do.

By being completely node based I know I don’t have to script ( thank god for that ) but it would be nice if it were simpler to understand what a particular node does and why it exists. Thats when we can get the 'AHA" factor for us artists types.

#39

To some of you (and I’m including myself here) who may be a bit intimidated by ICE, have you seen these tutorials (not free but reasonable)?: http://i3dtutorials.com/tutorial/50_mastering-the-art-of-ice-volume-i-breaking-the-ice

#40

http://softimageinsider.blogspot.com/

These are great too… Very nice