Full Sail?

#41

Are you saying Game Development and Game Design are the same thing?

Here is the description on the Full Sail site:
Video games have grown up. First person shooters, online role-playing games, rhythm games, sports titles – each genre is providing gamers with sophisticated gameplay, graphics, and storylines that could hardly have been imagined a decade ago.

The gaming industry relies on strong leaders to coordinate the teams of artists, designers, and programmers working to create that level of immersion. Full Sail’s Game Design Master’s Degree Program is designed to prepare students to take on those leadership roles, and oversee the next generation of innovation in the field of video games.

Specialized courses will help you develop an understanding of team leadership, project development, and collaborative design – with supporting projects that involve the practical applications of the game production process from both the technical and managerial sides. You’ll learn about different design mechanics and production software, as well as how to communicate effectively and inspire a team of artists and programmers to stay focused when developing a singular creative vision.

You’ll bring that balanced knowledge together for a final design project where you will oversee a team of artists and programmers in developing a complete game title. All this work will take place in a professional studio environment as you write the game’s design documents and coordinate the production schedule, everything you would do as a producer in the industry, from the initial concepting stage to the final integration of assets into the game code.

Having worked through a full production cycle as producer, you’ll graduate from the Game Design Master’s Degree with an understanding of the personal skills needed to be successful leader of a creative team, as well as the corporate responsibilities required in the management roles at a game studio.

Aren’t “Game Developers” the “programmers” in the teams the “Game Designer” is managing. So, again if you wanted to actually continue game development in a Masters program, it will have to be somewhere else.

As for you comment: “your contribution to the discussion seems to have been whittled down to repeating your “I’m sure it’s great, but not really” mantra after each response.”

From the start I have been focused on the same thing, which I clearly stated when I said: "Honestly, I have nothing against Full Sail for training. However, when the discussion turns to ragging public universities or someone implies you can easily transfer credits to one, I feel it is doing a big diservice to potential students to make such claims. "

I got into this thread originally because someone was making these claims, and I re-entered when you did with your review. Again, I really have nothing against Full Sail, I just don’t think you or anyone else has the right to imply transfering credits or going onto graduate programs is a “moot” issue as you say.

Ohmanoggin

#42

Let me start by saying I have attended FullSail, and I have also worked there.

I would encourage any young people considering FullSail to very thoroughly read Rhintons posts in this thread. I won’t quote them and make this even longer, but his observations and comments are spot on, and something to think about before making a commitment like this.

The other piece of advice I will give personally is this; if you are under 20 years of age, do not attend FullSail right away.

This is not a knock against the school. You can indeed learn a ton of useful skills at FullSail, and I know many students who have fantastic careers who did very well at the school. However, I suggest waiting until you are at least 20 in order to make sure you fully comprehend the gravity of the commitment you make to go there. 80k in loans may not sound like a big deal fresh out of high school, but how does
a 700-800 dollar per month payment for the next 10 years sound? This is a very serious financial burden, especially given the uncertainty and instability of the entertainment industry.

Layoffs are common, long hours are common, and moving around the country is common. This is not a lifestyle everyone can get used to an succeed in.

If you are just graduating high school and are dead-set on FullSail, take at least one year at a community college. Work, save up some money, and attend classes at a “normal” school. You will have a much greater appreciation for FullSail after that, and I promise it will translate into a better education if you decide to go. You can also use your free time to get a huge headstart on software or training before you even get to FullSail, which will allow you to use your time their for more advanced topics.

Also, as a young 18-year old ready to take on the world, you may not give a rat about accreditation or credits transferring or whatnot. I didn’t either. Now, however, I will be attending another school and I will be starting at the bottom. Not a single thing I did at FullSail is transferring, not one class, so I have to begin an Associate degree from scratch. And since I now work full-time, this will take between 2 and 3 years to finish. This isn’t something I ever thought I would do, but funny how 18 year old me didn’t think of everything I would encounter in the future.

TLDR: FullSail is a fine school, but take some serious time to think about it and get experience at another school before you go there. Whether you decide to go or not, you will be better for it.

#43

I definitely agree with Decency’s post. My game dev classes are full of kids fresh out of high school, and they drop like flies from the program. Many of them complain about the littlest things, oblivious to how spoiled they are at Full Sail. Much of my appreciation for the school stems from my prior college experience when I was younger, and my continued concurrent education at public school now. Doing them side-by-side really makes Full Sail’s greatness stand out to me.

I also agree that most people in their teens and early 20’s don’t know what their passion in life is yet, and therefore should NOT make an $80,000 commitment to learning one. So many people in my first programming classes had absolutely no programming experience or even familiarity whatsoever. So many also frequently screamed out “I ****ing hate programming” out of frustration when working on projects. At least half of those people failed at least once if not more of the early programming classes. Some failed so many times they are no longer in the program. This is something I don’t understand. I knew I wanted to do Game dev because I dabbled in programming and discovered I LOVED IT. Even after an 8-hour class in programming, I go home and spend almost the same amount of time doing it just for fun. I’ve received an A+ in every single class at Full Sail so far. So yeah, if you’re young, even if you’re indignant and think you want to go to Full Sail and grown-ups don’t know anything, I’d suggest at least doing transferable general ed classes at a cheaper public school, then transfer into Full Sail later after adult life has had some time to marinate in your brain for a while. Even that little bit of public school will give you greater appreciation for Full Sail’s style, and hopefully expose you to enough other fields to discover your interest if it turns out Full Sail isn’t for you.

Next, and this is specifically for prospective game dev students, do some programming BEFORE you decide to go to Full Sail for game dev or game design. Don’t choose game dev just because you “like to play games a lot” and “have some good ideas for games to make.” Programming is ****ING COMPLEX. It’s hard, and infinitely harder if you don’t like doing it. Even for the Game Design master’s, you’re going to need to know a significant amount of programming. No, the game design MS itself does not entail any real programming, but you still need to know programming. Why? Because there is no such thing as graduating with a degree in design and then jumping straight into a job designing games (in which you would be leading programmers). If you want to oversee games, your best bet is starting as a junior programmer and working your way up to senior project leader. We’re talking YEARS of work in the industry before you’re ever a designer of anything more than a macaroni sculpture. Designers MUST have programming knowledge and experience to be qualified for their job. You can’t possibly design a game if you don’t know how a game goes together.

If you’re a student already pursuing an education in software development but are stuck in a watered down degree like Computer Science, then Full Sail’s Game dev degree could be a good choice for you. Like most trade schools and even many AAS and BAS degrees at public school (my programming AS required only 1 math, 1 humanities, 1 communication, and 1 public speaking course), much of the superfluous liberal arts is cut in favor of more pertinent job training. Having a well-rounded education is a good thing, but being proficient at your particular trade is better. The tuition is high, but don’t forget the savings in living expenses can be high too. I own my home, but from what I see most of the students in my classes share apartments and pay around $450 a month individually toward rent and utilities. What they spend on food just blows my mind. I spend about $300 a month on food for myself and my s/o, but these kids spend twice that with the amount of fast food and dining out they do. What ever happened to college kids who lived off Ramen noodles? In any case, if you’re spending say $1,000 a month on basic living expenses, not including transportation, entertainment, internet, phone, fun, etc., that on its own is $24,000 saved by doing 2 years less of school. It’s up to you to do the math though and figure out what your expenses come out to.

My last piece of advice is don’t major in film or music, don’t major in film or music, don’t major in film or music, DON’T MAJOR IN FILM OR MUSIC. Yes, Full Sail supposedly has some of the best training for film and music. Film and music are also extremely competitive but declining industries with extremely low pay for the majority of people trying to get into it. Ever notice all the political science majors working as restaurant waiters in and around Washington D.C.? The same thing happens with film and music majors on the other side of the country in and around Hollywood. Unless you have a rich family with money to throw at stupid shit, or you fully expect to make no more than $25,000 a year, unless you fully expect to never desire a better career, unless you passionately love drowning in film or music forever, and unless you have no hopes of ever having the money to pursue other common life goals like a nice house, raising a family, etc, don’t go to Full Sail and spend $80,000 on a pipe dream of being a famous director.

Also, skinny jeans-clad, dorky box-framed glasses-wearing, and miniature hat-sporting film and music students always seem to be annoying, shrill-voiced whiners handing out business cards for their fake ass studios and bragging about their non-existent accomplishments. Ugh, amusing, but annoying when they’re representing the school >.>

#44
  1. If they pay way below normal university medians for professors, don’t you think that the better faculty will go to the places that pay more? Really think about this!

No, you don’t understand how the University system works.

Most universities prefer a terminal degree (MFA) over experience based on accreditation. Full Sail prefers experience while requiring a Bachelors. In the VFX field at least, there are few people working with terminal degrees. This means they cannot teach at a University where they require a masters. One of my best coworkers worked on The Matrix, Big Fish, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, etc and had no Masters so he could not be a professor at, say, SCAD, as easily.

Tenured professors are also a scourge of education. Many of them simply back up to a paycheck. They cannot be fired unless there is an act of God. The vast majority of them are very VERY far behind the times. There is no tenure track at Full Sail.

My coworkers were people from Walt Disney, Digital Domain, Rhythm and Hues, Weta, Dreamworks, and ILM. Their credits included Brother Bear, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, The Matrix, King Kong, Lord of the Rings, Shrek, and more.

  1. I don’t care how good the instructor may or may not be, art and design take time to develop. There are just so many hours that a person can work before they either burn out or just stop absorbing the required material. All accelerated programs have this problem.

This is true and misleading, this is about knowing yourself. It’s not a problem for everyone. If you have the traditional training already (or the natural talent) then this is fine. If you need more time then go somewhere else. No one is twisting your arm or hiding the accelerated nature of the program.

  1. I do think that Full Sail may be working hard on their reputation and quality. However, as of today, they don’t have the stellar reputation that other animation schools have including Ringling, CalArts, Risd, RIT, SVA, Sheridan, UCSJ, Pratt, Gnomon or even SCAD or Digipen. Thus, why pay a lot of money for a school without the same cache as those mentioned.

Living and working in the VFX field I can say this is unequivocally false. This used to be true but is not so any more. For animation this began to change about 2005-2006 where the program took a complete turn and has continued to accelerate since. Despite a few that still hold it back. . .the majority are accomplished professionals I still talk to today about current and common practices. (My own credits include Xmen, Thor, Hereafter, Fright Night, etc.)

Let’s face it: would a professor prefer to teach better , more motivated students or teach those of lessor quality and who have less motivation? Which would you rather teach?

This is a moot point. I have taught at multiple schools and this is true anywhere you go. At Santa Monica Community College a friend of mine struggles with unmotivated students constantly. Welcome to life.

I say this because Full Sail also abridges liberal arts courses. I really don’t believe that these grads get the same quality of liberal arts and writing training as those of many other, non- accelerated schools. This may not seem that important to you now,but it really can be in the future.

Writing is a required part of each class as designed by accredited programs. Things like creating a plan or explaining a method for your project.

However, they do not require as much because it is a technical university. If you find yourself struggling to communicate then you can always seek help.

It seems a large portion of the complaints are aimed at “It doesn’t give. . .etc” This is self evident and not hidden. If you choose this type of education then it’s not really the fault of the school. (Don’t by a car with a manual transmission and claim you were duped.)

I think the pros and cons have been outlined quite nicely and are obvious.

The reservation I have is that a lot of these industries are lowering wages and outsourcing very often. So adding a burden of debt this large is a huge commitment that has a decreasing level of return.

#45

Also worth mentioning is the fact that Full Sail does offer an “extended” version of most of their programs, meaning you can get the same stellar training at a slower pace (1 class at a time instead of 2) and get the BS in 3 years of instead of 2. The extended pace still counts as full-time for financial aid purposes (a 4-month semester would involve 4 classes worth 3-4 credits each, for a total of 12-16 credits per semester).

#46

Any time you think Full Sail is “luring in” innocent students with misrepresented job prospects, you gotta see some of the other schools floating around in this country that offer similar degrees:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7675519043804402267

I like how they a) misrepresent game testing QA as “playing games” (it’s not), b) have some head honcho walk in to tell the game testers that they “need another game designed,” and c) the game testers say they need to “tighten up the graphics” on a level. Lulz.

#47

Lots of interesting stuff on Full Sail. Just putting in my 2cents also…
I’m currently completing my 1st year. I have to say I’m unsure at this point of moving on. Unfortunatly, I’ve invested a years worth of tuition so its not a small decision. But a few thoughts from a current student…

What everyone says about a lot of work is true. But quite honestly, it’s all good info. I’ve been to 4 schools so far (one of which is engineering) and the other 3 are 3D Training Institute, Escape Studios VFX mentored course and Animation Mentor. All of them (not so much 3DTi) had huge amounts of work to do. But at the end, I was very happy with the quality of instruction and what I came out with (knowledge wise). I don’t think people should let ‘a lot of work’ stop you from attending something you like unless of course you have real time constraints. I’m at the edge being a full time worker plus a single dad.
What I don’t like of course is the cost vs what I’m getting. The online tuts are very good. Love 'em. But all the other courses had very good online tuts too…that includes FxPHD and DT. Now, obviously, they don’t give you a B.A. so that’s the ‘catch’ so to speak.
I really don’t see any instruction though. Even in my current class, I recently asked the instructor to provide feedback on how they thought I was doing in my submissions so I can gauge where I stand (if I should be worried or not). I’ve asked twice with no answer yet. All that was told of me was to ‘make sure I submit my work to the online critique forum’ (where students put up their work for crits from other students and studio assistants. But my feeling is that if your asking your instructor for some real time thoughts, then I’m paying 60K or 70K for that service / advice. Otherwise, I’d pay the students in class my money. The other thing I’ve found is that although they have hours where you can seek advice from assistants, they’re not always there at those times. I’ve gotten in that situation 3 times so far just in this months module. That makes a difference because someone like myself with serious time constraints can’t always make the hour per week of the GoToTraining session. So if you log on for assistance from someone, and they’re not there, it matters.
This isn’t the first time this has happened so I’m concerned.

So what my take away so far is (as a year in), you can get the same quality at other places for way less cost. It depends how important you think the degree is. I decided to go specifically for the degree but I’m questioning my rational.
I do feel a lot of places look for the degree and if your up against someone with just as good art skills, the piece of paper will make the difference in hiring probably.
On the other hand, as a full time freelance, I got my job thru my reel.
Hope his helps, not trying to ‘bash’…just putting it in some perspective from a current student and someone who’s seen almost 50yrs on earth (so far and counting…I hope).

#48

Bujin9, I think you are making the right choice going for a degree. A degree could always benefit you in many ways in the future. I don’t agree that you attended Full Sail. I have said this before and will continue with this statement. Most things such as art and writing and reading skills take TIME! Full sails allots 1 month to all liberal arts and about 6 weeks to fundamental concepts such as drawing, 3d studies , color theory etc. This is to be contrasted with most art and design schools who allocate one full year to fundamental concepts and about one full year to liberal arts such as English, literature etc. Don’t think that having good writing and reading skills aren’t important to animators. They can only be ignored if you NEVER want to rise to management level, and then I am am not even sure of that!

Moreover, although I do believe that you can get some decent animation skills with Full Sail, this will only happen to a small percentage of the students. You really need to be a special person to be able to develop these skills with that kind of intensity required by their program. Sadly, people look at the shorter time frame to get a degree and the lessor amount of money required vs that of a four year school and make decisions on those factors. Sadly, for the reasons given, it is the wrong thing to do for the vast, vast majority of students.

By the way, in case you think that I may be wrong as to my opinion, read over many of the reviews concerning Full Sail that were made by students. You can find them all over the web such as at Students reviews etc. Here is one such forum: http://www.studentsreview.com/FL/FSRWE_comments.html

A fair review of them will show about 80% or more are negative and feel that Full Sail is nothing more than a money mill. Their attitude is to have “no dollar left behind.” Moreover, some of the positive ones ( although possibly not all) are almost too perfectly crafted, which make me believe that they were posted by the someone in the Full Sail admininstration.There is just too much smoke about this school; and usually, where there is smoke, there is fire!

Also, you will find that having Full Sail on your resume is NOT a plus for most employers in the field. They don’t have a great reputation. As proof, one student posted on the web that he had a 3.6 GPA at Full Sail and a 159 on the LSAT,which is a very good score. However, he didn’t get accepted to any law school even those whose average LSAT were 148! He had to go back to another school and get a new bachelors degree before he could get into law school. Yes, the school may be accredited,but most graduate and professional programs don’t view it as equal to a full bachelors degree from a regular 4- year program.

By the way, Full Sail isn’t the only school that I have railed against. I don’t want anyone to feel that I am singling them out. However, since this thread is about Full Sail, I have limited my discussion to them.

#49

Wow I totally forgot about this discussion. I suppose I should report that my time at Full Sail has been hands down and by far superior in quality to any other school I’ve attended. Each class gets better than the last. I’d already surpassed 2 years of public school in the first four months I spent there, and it’s only gotten awesomer. Definitely has been worth it for me.

Anyway, in response to taxguy, I just wanted to say that the overwhelming number of negative reviews against Full Sail that I’ve found have turned out to be made by the same two fail-outs who reposted the same complaints under different names over and over on every review site. One was a Recording Arts drop-out, the other was a Film drop-out. I can’t comment on those programs personally because I have no experience with them. In the one general ed class I had to share with them, I got the impression that they’re all morons. It could very well be that Full Sail’s Film and Audio students are utter morons and these programs suck, I don’t know. I’ve noticed the instructors in those programs have disproportionately lower ratings on ratemyprofessors.com too. However, I’ve never found a single complaint about Full Sail’s Game Dev program from any graduates, and on the contrary, the game dev graduates I did find didn’t have any troubles finding work after. Most of the instructors in this program have high ratings. Also, I wanted to reiterate that Full Sail is nationally accredited by the ACCSC, not regionally accredited like most public universities. That is probably the reason the one student was unable to get into law school on his Full Sail merits (and what the hell, who goes to Full Sail to pursue an education in law?).

Since Film and Music are essentially pipe dreams compared to software development (based on the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ estimated number of jobs and average salary in each career field), I can’t really take anyone seriously who finds it feasible to spend $80k on a degree that at best will fetch them a $20k salary that didn’t require education in the first place. Game dev seems worth it. Computer Animation, Game Art, and Web Design seem valuable. The other degree programs? NOT WORTH IT in my opinion. Not because Full Sail doesn’t provide quality, but just because the price isn’t worth the end goal.

#50

Corncolonel, I am glad that you feel that you have gotten a good education for your money. However, from what I am hearing, you are in the minority. There are just too many people complaining about it.

See: http://www.ripoffreport.com/colleges-and-universities/full-sail-university/full-sail-university-fullsail-14553.htm

and http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_movies_blog/2011/02/ex-students-go-to-war-with-full-sail-online.html

and http://www.studentsreview.com/FL/FSRWE_comments.html

and especially: http://www.oocities.org/fullsailexposed/tfse-ed3.html

Of course there is the NY Times article on them: http://blogs.orlandoweekly.com/index.php/2012/01/sunday-nyt-report-full-sail-sunk-its-not-an-italian-cruise-ship-but/

and http://fullsailreviews.net/about/

Also, you note that the first site that I cited in my 5/24 pos,t showing large numbers of negative reviews ,were by two disenchanted students. How did you know? There are no names given and no URLs noting Internet connections.

Finally, as I have said, the majority of people need time to develop reading, writing and visual arts skills. Time is not what Full Sail provides. It is an intensive program covering about 21 months of training. Frankly, this won’t develop the appropriate skills for reading, writing or visual arts for the vast majority of students!

Finally, you have dismissed the fact that students applying to law schools and grad schools from Full Sail are treated as if they don’t have a degree. You might feel this is irrelevant, however, a college degree should offer many choices. Folks never know where they will end up. Having some doors close solely because it is a Full Sail degree vs other college degrees should be considered unacceptable to anyone!

#51

Hmm, 13 posts but only in this thread…hmmm

#52

This thread is what brought me here, because I have an interest in Full Sail. Why would I participate anywhere else? I’m not into CG. Why are you here if not to discuss the topic, Full Sail? Hmmm.

I suggested this because when I was researching Full Sail to decide whether or not it seemed too scammy for me, I started to notice a trend in almost every review site. I found the same complaints, some verbatim cut-and-paste, some with the same details in the same order with the same spelling and grammar errors and many posted within the same day of each other. I later went back and noticed that a lot of them used the same aliases that these two people had used on other sites. I figured out who they were and what aliases they used because a Google search of one of the quoted reviews turned up identical complaints on their personal blogs, which led me to their facebook and myspace pages which led me to some of their favorite sites and online communities where I learned their favorite aliases to go by. Both blogs have since been removed. The first was removed just a few months after all the posts. The more active poster (Nancy Ford) finally removed hers around 6 months or so ago. In any case, realizing they were all just reposts made me wonder if all the bad hype was really just a few whiners.

Ultimately I made the decision to go to Full Sail because, even though there ARE a lot of complaints from a lot of legitimate people, I have never found a single complaint from a Full Sail grad of the Game Dev program, which was the program I was heading into. It was a tough decision, because people who have a good experience somewhere don’t tend to post about it as much as people who have a bad experience. The type of person to write about Full Sail is more likely to be someone who failed out or made poor choices and wants to point blame somewhere else. Diploma mills are a concern and I was inches away from scrapping the whole idea and dedicating my time to a traditional education at UCF. It was actually my plan at one point. The thing that ultimately changed my mind was when I finally came across a review of Full Sail from a pair of game dev grads who addressed the same concerns I’m addressing here. If I hadn’t read that, I’d probably still be in public school right now, probably still lacking the ability to write even simple 2D graphical games and not learning about AI or networking or optimization or neural networks until my 5th year. The only reason I responded here is because I felt a few really big whiners who had dropped out, along with a lot of uninformed blabbermouths who have never set foot in and don’t know anything about Full Sail but want to hear themselves talk about it anyway, were giving the school imbalanced representation, and I wanted to reassure any prospective game dev students that these complaints do not apply to the game dev program. It’s awesome.

#53

Why are you here if not to discuss the topic, Full Sail? Hmmm.

Take a guess. Shouldn`t be too hard.

#54

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.