Don't Touch Me!

#1

does victorianism affect the art we make?
just went to the turkish shop to grab a bit of bread to get me thru sunday and noticed the shop owner feeding his kid some orange drink, it was a tender scene, made me think about how physically cold and frustrated the average european is when it comes to bodily contact.

if one way to measure the greatness of a piece is the ammount of love it radiates, how does our ingrained distant behaviour influece our work?

to hear from diverse cultures would be very interesting.

cheers chris.

#2

dang this was meant for the art discussion forum,… maybe one of the honchos could mod it over for me.

#3

pokes you

Muhuhahaha.

#4

Well, I had the same experience growing up here but having a latin american mother. She grew somewhat chilled over time too though, since we were on both fronts. Only love I get is from my cats :(.

And if it’s a measure, well, yesterday a friend of mine told me how glum it all was in the gallery. I gotta say I have to agree, besides my particular interest in psychological tension/friction. “They should make the place a bit of a cheer allready!” is what he said.

#5

hey jm,… nice te see ja!

do other cultures see the stuff we make as souless or does that coolness press us to make even more emotional work?

i heard michelangelo was a pretty cold figure believing that he had no emotional room for anything but his work.

#6

I’ve always been pretty cold. the only member of my family I would ever hug is my dog. My art always got shite marks in school because it was too glum.

If you look at anything I make its always dark and often colourless. I suppose its because a lot of artists are tortured souls.

#7

I tend to be cold too because, i had trouble keeping friends because of the constant moving around and just developed some serious apathy towards people and i didn’t like getting close to people because i knew i wouldn’t be there for long. i’ve been trying to get out of that, but some times its hard when it just keeps happening.

Yes it did affect my art, but now im trying to be less gloomy…

#8

Social interaction is overrated. And so’s touching people.

I can’t stand it when people try to act like, well, I don’t know. French? You know, with cheek-kissing and hugging and all that.

I’d much rather take a firm handshake and a good look in the eye than one of those half-hearted not-really-hugs. The way I see it is that there can be just as much emotion in a handshake as in a hug.

But I don’t really see a correlation with this and art.

#9 
Hmmm... interesting, thought provoking and for me as a Dutchy, difficult.

First of all, I think the physical aloofness is more characteristic of west/north Europe, the further you go south/east, people show more of their passion to the outside world.
Perhaps it’s the weather, I don’t know. You undoubtely had some hail and rain falling on your head today if you went outside, such weather doesn’t make me very cheery. (Arghh… see how I’m avoiding the question with a silly joke).

Seriously: I think what drives people to art is to express what they are trained  from very early on [i]not [/i]to express. I'm not sure how to continue. Just consider this: if you had ample opportunity to express your emotions externally - in the real world - would you feel the need to express those otherwise repressed emotions in art? For example: 17th century Holland/Flanders was a very repressed society, yet that period produced some of the finest European art.

Just a question, a thought, my 2 eurocents, I'm totally in the dark about this. :hmm:
#10

I’m on the opposite side of the coin. Being from an Brazilian family with italian ascendence, i live in a really hot family, or so to say. We’re all about hugging and kissing, and i gotta say that we found pretty strange the distance between people you find there in Europe and North America.

What is more strange is that… Well, being close, touching the people you like and love is good, it feels good to have the body warm of an important person, or even a not so important one, and, hell, i cant see not even one thing bad from it, so, why the hell you guys avoid it so much ?

And, not considering myself an artist, i can imagine how this would reflect in art. Its cultural, its a cultural diference between europeans and latins, and, as others cultural diferences, it should affect art. But, not being an expert, i will not dare to say how.

But, nodaways, i imagine that it would affect art in two diferents possibilities :
a. The lack of human touch would make an artist reflect his needs for human contact in art, creating strong coloured and sentimentally heavy art, or;
b. The artist would reflect his distance from people in art, making cold, brutal and/or desperating pieces.

But, of course, we cannot simple generalize it, since artists are a crazy species, and we can find any tipe of art coming from anywhere, but i do believe that this lack of human contact would affect art.

Just my 2 cents :slight_smile:

#11

Good to see ya too, nice topic! Well, this is one of those dualistic things imho. Someone repressing emotion might very well be a fountain of sensations internaly. I suspect that’s truth anyways.

I do profoundly feel there’s a more secluded(sp?) feel to western art. Allthough they maybe ever so rich in an intellectual way. I often find distances in them. Instead of head on closer aspects things of pain (obviously) and issues of a more conflictant kind are far more predominant.

I’m no scholar but I’m quite sure westerners aren’t necessarily colder at heart, it could easily be a cultural thing. Climate leading to more clothes and less touch etc… :sad: Warmth is a really great thing in life. I think it defines my demeanor towards the outside world to a great extent actually. But I’m a sob though heh, lol.

#12

it could easily be a cultural thing.

Of course it’s a cultural thing, what else would it be, genetic?! :smiley:

Obviously it’s the climate.

  1. Clothing - cold weather makes you put heavy clothing on, and if it’s cold enough and you wear enough clothing even your mouth is covered and it becomes impossible to hug and kiss. It becomes harder to read body language and facial expressions. It’s a big production simply to go out and visit a neighbour. You absolutely MUST call ahead, because it’s so much trouble to go visiting.
  2. Architecture - domiciles in colder countries are built with smaller thicker windows (which you NEVER open in winter), thick soundproof walls, 2 outer doors (like an airlock) and a hallway to stamp the snow off and store all the outdoor gear.
  3. Sunlight - it’s a proven medical fact that the less sunlight you get the more depressed you are.
  4. Food - the colder it is the less likely you are to eat outdoors.

Now compare this to a tropical land: you wear the same very light clothes indoor and outdooor, the door and windows are always open, you can actually stand in your doorway and talk to your neigbours, or hear them when you’re inside, the sun is almost always so bright it hurts, you can sit on the sidewalk and eat a snack, lean back relax and look at people… Obviously there will be some big fundamental differences in behaviour and outlook on life. The weird thing would be if there wasn’t. :slight_smile:

edit:
And how does this affect art? I suppose in a million ways, some obvious, some not. I think it’s easiest to spot in film: compare Ingmar Bergman’s depressing oevre to Fellini’s.
Swedish film in the 50’s and 60’s had a reputation for being almost more depressing and introverted than film noir. :slight_smile:

#13

Cultural Influence- I totally agree.

There is also the influence of mindset. Art is influenced by what goes on in the mind most of the time. There was this friend I knew, who painted as a form of meditative therapy. He would meditate and get into that range of existence and then paint. The results would be awsome. So I guess you should just tune yourself into doing something. And being a westerner or easterner wouldn’t have too much of effect. This is just my honest feel on this…

#14

i agree with steven .

The cultural difference in behaviour i experienced when i first came to sweden was overwelming. been a greek that came to sweden to study was a huge difference for me in terms of human relations in general. as i have experienced it the last 7 years Swedes are very closed people not easily open up (correct me if i am wrong Steven). it takes them a long time to open up. I would say that drinking is a big behaviour changer as i have seen it in the uni. i helps them open up and it is documented that the farther u go up north the heavier the drinking becomes.

what is this have to do with art well as steven said is more depressing more dark more closed art but still they try to overcome this luck of human closeness with warmer and more close everyday things betrayed in tv comensials, posters on the street , advertisements etc .

Sometimes u can see a mixture of a dark art layout with a glimph of warm coloring , small but noticable, in the same composition as if a break through in this depressing overall feeling.

Mediterranean art in the other hand is more light oriented, more saturated in color and usually warm color compositions. The layouts are more of an open nature.

in the end is has to do with the inner feelings of the artist that will be diplayed in his/her art and those are obviously effected by the way he/she lives and the world he/she is surrounded by.

#15

correct me if i am wrong Steven

you’re not wrong, drinking habits change with the latitude as well. In Greece, France and Italy, more wine, smaller amounts but more often… in Northern Europe and Russia more heavy liquor and binge drinking.

#16

From my point of view, I do believe that warm touches give the effect we need from the interaction with others
. I mean when you put your hand on your friends shoulder whenever he is frustrated, give your kids a huge hug when ever you are back home, or even if you hugged a friend of yours when you meet him after a while. Correct me if am wrong, but in the States and Europe in general, people tend to point on two males hugging or cheek kissing and conceder them as gay or something. Stereotype, this is the secret word, we judge before we even think. For example in my country, we cheek kiss and sometimes hug those we didn’t see along time ago, but we don’t point and judge. To make the long story short, there is no shame in physical interactions “good ones, I mean don’t touch a lady’s ass, and say Oops, physical interaction”. Especially with kids, when a man forehead kisses his friend’s son or daughter in the west, he might spend the rest of his life in the federal jail, but in the east, speaking about my country, this action may lead to strengthen the relations between you and your friend, do you know why? Because we don’t have freak child- abusers in here, at least not like US. In general, I believe that, people of the States and Europe lost (partially) there warmest feelings, the feeling of being attached to the human race. I also believe that taking you emotions out of the freezer (your heart) and putting it in the microwave of emotions will help you to produce real work, full of emotions.

#17

In general, I believe that, people of the States and Europe lost (partially) there warmest feelings, the feeling of being attached to the human race

You are looking at the world through glasses colored by your upbringing, and now you’re doing the judging. If people don’t behave the way people did where you grew up, it doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with them. Everyone has emotions, they just go through a lot of trouble to hide them in certain cultures.

Because we don’t have freak child- abusers in here, at least not like US

Wow, getting worse… The type of person who becomes a child abuser exists in equal percentage in every culture and country, it’s just that their activities are more hidden, or there’s less of an opportunity for them to manifest, in certain places and situations.

#18

Another issue that I think enters into it is that cultures are becoming more alienated due to medias incessent focus on fear and negativity in reporting, governments contribute through their hidden adgendas which equate to a population in fear= a population that can be controlled and is desperate for a protector. (Witness the Bush administrations playing on the populus by creating boogie men of all types and then eroding civil liberties as a result. People will give up a lot in order to perceive that they are “safe”.)

Also, lets factor in religion, which historically has pitted faction against faction, fostered suspician and doubt and, more recently, tended to splinter society into increasingly factionalized groups and pit one faction against another. For what? Money, power, increasing their member base.

Science fiction has long extrapolated societies in which people never leave their homes. Instead holographic representations of themselves interact in the outside world. Isn’t that what the internet has provided? How long until holographic iamgery reaches that capacity and incorporates into everyday life?

I think all of these issues are interlinked and that conspiricy theories are not always the result of unbridled paranoia but are the result of real stratigic thinking on the part of the “controllers” in order to better controll the controlled.

And yes, climate, and, sorry Stephen, even genetics, as survival of the fittest factors many issues into which organisms survive and which perish.

So, take them all togather and we have a very difficult path toward creating a world in which we are all “one.”

Robert

#19

thanx for the replies, i have read them all with great interest (after recovering from bonedaddy’s poke:) ). it’s nice to take advantage of the fact that these forums are so pan cultural.

having travelled for one year after coming from australia, I spent some time in the middel east at one extreme and as far as the tip of norway at the other. arabic countries show great warmth among men and traditionally how that was between men and women was invisible to me as an outsider but publicly i saw no interaction. up in sweeden, finland, denmark and norway bodily contact was indeed reserved and there was a cool atmosphere (or was that just standing on 1 meter thick ice sheets in minus 30 degrees with ridiculously thin souled shoes that gave me the chill :slight_smile: ). however i saw the most amazing abstract and contemporary art in a little sweedish national galery, probably made by insane cabin fevered sweedish artists that seldom ventured outdoors.

since yesterday this topic has been knocking about in the back of my mind. i enjoyed reading about that darkness and depression aspect many of you have written about, and have come to the conclusion that i quite enjoy it. an example would be hr. geiger’s art which you wouldn’t call cheerfull by any stretch of the imagination, non the less inspiring and provocative.

i chose holland conciously as my home away from home after being as far south as aswan and as far north as the artic. i feel at home in these latitudes and most dutch people think i am nuts as they are of the opinion that the weather here generally sux. i have noticed a difference in how people interact depending on climate but have not noticed a change in quality of art made.

everything seems to be in balance.

cheers chris (its friggin raining again :scream: ).

#20

yes i believe this to be the worst aspect of the human condition. i believe also that we have got an imense ammount of priceless creativity (art and design) out of these processes. the price in human lives cannot be weighed against those gains though.

as far as sci-fi goes,… yes i am sitting behind my computer on a sunday morning ( with a filthy great hangover from all the human interaction last night ) enjoying a conversation with people that span the globe instead of drinking cofee at my mates place talking about lady bottoms:). Hail the comming of the replicator,… then when eveybody has a ferarri sports cars will become worthless and thou shalt be judged by thine contribution to society and not thine capacity to collect currency. no disrespect to ferarri.

good post robert:buttrock: