Considering purchasing Vue xStream 7.0 (7.5)

#21

Martin,

I, too have done extensive tests using the Vue 7 Infinite renderer and I suspect you aren’t comparing apples to apples in your scene settings. One has to be aware of the changes in the render engine and how best to optimize them for Vue 7. I’ve seen substantial decrease in rendertimes from Vue 7 to Vue 6 (Infinite only).

If you care to share you scene files, I suspect I can provide the necessary optimization for render times. I did this for a fella when Vue 7 first emerged and it turned out he had some settings set on Vue 7 which added nothing but time to the render.

I suspect your claim of False marketing–is false itself :smiley:

#22

David in all fairness i can find a good deal of vue users that just like me have a pretty good relation/history with e.ons support, so no, i´m not the only one.

With that said, i have numerous times stated that i to think that e.on should be easier to get in touch with so it´s not like i think they, as a company, is doing all they could do, just that i find that once you do get in touch with them and express your issues in a clear and friendly way, they do listen and, for me atleast, fix my issues.

And even then, obviously some users dont have that luck, it´s quite obvious from reading various forums, but reading the very same forums also highlights what i said in the start of this reply, alot of users do agree with me about e.ons support being responsive and friendly.

So i´m not sure what it realy comes down to, one thing is true tho, regardless of their support, vue have and has had its fair share of bugs, which isnt a fact that´s depending on how friendly their support is or not.

I´ve had way to many bugs through the years with vue, all i´m saying is that for me, they have fixed most of my issues.

So regardless of your feelings towards their support, i´m sure we can agree on vue having had it´s fair share of issues through the years.

But, vue 7 for me is alot more stable then vue 6 used to be in the same point of time through it´s lifespan, so it´s obviously going in the right direction even tho it´s still not perfect.

#23

I will agree with Mike about Tech support, they are very responsive imho, which doesn’t mean they will solve your problem in a fraction of a second, unless you have a maintenance plan, in this case I guess they have to work something out quickly, but only a guess, I don’t have a maintenance contract with e-on.
Now about render speed, Vue7 will render faster in most cases, and if using radiosity, it will render amazingly faster than any previous versions. Many changes have been made to the render engine, so rendering a scene in Vue6 and then taking the scene to Vue7 for comparison with same settings won’t actually compare.
I can’t talk about xSt for Max, I use Cinema4D. Integration between the 2 apps is excellent, hardly have any crashes. When I have crashes, it’s upon exit, e-on is looking into it, but they need to be able to reproduce the problem to fix it. There might be some Max related problems, but I really don’t know.
Should you consider getting 7 xSt now with a maintenance plan, you can get 7.5 immediately and use it with VRay, if this is your rendering engine of choice.

#24

Thank you for all your polite responses.
The dialog has been excellent!

It was not my intention (I mentioned this early on) to start any kind of war of words and all here have maintained a professional discussion.

Mike and Bruno obviously have had a much different experience with Vue Tech Support then others. I am not passing judgement against Vue tech support btw, just trying to sort through all the varying opinions.

This point I will not conceed:
It is unfair for software companies to release versions that are full of bugs and expect their users to find them and work through them.

I can undertand a couple of minor flaws, but not a long list of issuses.
When we receive our version upgrades for Max, we always wait for SP1 to be released before we use a new version.

Purchasing Vue xStream and running into even a portion of the ailments users have described would make me quite upset, which is why I requested information from end users.

Stability over features any day.

Some of us make our livelihoods with our software. Instability burns valuable time and energies.

Bruno,
Are you saying I can get 7.5 now if I purchase Vue xStream?
Is there any added access to tech support when you have the maintenence agreement?

Best regards,
David

#25

Yes, look here for maintenance plans.
If you get 7 xSt and a maintenance plan, you can get the pre release of 7.5 along, this is how I understand the latest newsletter.
Please don’t feel I’m trying to push you in any direction, I’m not. Just giving my opinion and feelings about the software I use a lot, but inside a different host app.
I’ve seen users post bugs using Max & xSt, mostly frames rendering black, I don’t know if it is because of a bug or bad usage of the program, but you certainly want to know more about this before making any decision. This forum is a great resource for this, I suggest you look at some of the threads.

#26

Bruno,

Thanks for the kind encouragement and links.

I found the cause/solution for the black rendered frames (at least in Ozone 4.0 Beta).
There are objects in the scene that cause the entire frame to render Black.
Hiding those objects allows the scene to render normally.

I am a very vocal software owner.
If a product is good, I make sure I shout it out to all.
If a product is bad or buggy, we will be sure to let the public know about that too.
If a product receives good support, we make sure that gets know as well.

David

EDIT: Premium support is $995 per year. A bit pricey considering you already pay for the software. But for a production company it is probably worth it.

#27

Just letting you know David that i´m also depending on my softwares to generate money since i to use them in our daily business so i realy do understand where you are coming from regarding bugs that requires timeconsuming workarounds or even worse that cant be worked around.

Just felt that i had to point out that e.ons support staff, in my opinion and experience, realy do get down and dirty when it comes to solving issues. Granted, some things are still left on my “pretty, please e.on cant you fix/add this” list :slight_smile:

Like bruno i dont use vue with max so i cant help out with specifiq questions regarding that workflow.

#28

Yeah and I still havent found anyone that is happy with the Max implimentation of xStream.
Hope that is not premature…

David

EDIT: If the max implimentation is anything like the Ozone 4.0 Beta it has to be really bad.
We have easily turned in 70 to 80 CER’s (customer Error Reports) from all the crashes, failed render launches etc. We also asked if we could contribute to the Beta Process. Unfortunately the only thing we could do was post information in the ticket we had started for Ozone (there is no other method so we are told by “Lee”).
All we get back are posts by “Lee” that he will pass that information on. Too bad, so sad…

#29

Ozone is an open beta, so I think there is no other way to communicate with e-on regarding its bugs, there is no private beta team apparently.
Oh, and Lee is a she…

#30

Wow, I am guilty of jumping to conclusions for sure.

As far as an open Beta… Its too bad we can’t contribute…

We have beta tested a lot of software, and there is almost always a feed back form…

David

#31

While i agree that e.ons open beta feedback options is alittle lackluster they do provide you with the basic tools to get feedback to them.

So it´s not like you cant participate in the open beta and get your bugs and reports and requests to e.on.

#32

Fundamentally you are correct Mike.

David

#33

…but I come from a Maya arch/viz workflow and orientation, and was very interested in Vue to add some flavor and appeal to my outdoor scenes. Vue 6 and 7 xStream turned out to be brutally buggy and so I tried them as standalone. This means exporting .obj’s from Maya to Vue, of course. This workflow is far too slow and tedious for my deadlines, and Vue’s GI/GR slugs along at many times the speed we’re used to with mental ray itself. Vue’s render looks great, but you pay the price for serious lack of optimization.

From a small studio perspective, I feel that this software is not remotely production-ready. I really enjoy it, love the results, but that’s on those rare occasions when it works. 32-bit, forget it. More bugs than Maya, somehow. 64-bit, much more stable, but again this is in standalone mode and I still never had any functional Maya integration.

I’ve read (in these forums) that Max works much better with xStream, and for the sake of the masses, I sure hope so. As it stands, Vue is great for artwork and a big step up from say, Bryce or even Terragen in terms of functionality and ease of use, but when I’m on daily deadlines… Not for me. I too prefer stability over features, and my clients will be just as happy with PFX trees as with Vue trees if they get their renders on time.

#34

My intention is to wait till someone here or other forum gets the 7.5 upgrade version, rather than spending a large amount of money to experiment.

I have yet to find someone (as best I can remember) that says the xStream integration works without bugs, chanting or voodoo.

Vue has a lot of features the max does not, and I would like to intigrate those to my pipeline.

Another concern is for the long render times…

Hopefully someone will post here when they get theirs.

David

#35

I am an experienced Maya user, and our company got an assignment from a client in need of an animation with believable nature elements. I read the claims from Vue/Eon about Vue x-stream being totally integrated with Maya. I wanted to try it, but they could just let me use version 6 as a demo. With no time to loose, I bought the version 7 x-stream. The most positive thing I can say about it was the installation. It went without hickups. The rest of the x-stream for Maya is crap. It is NOT integrated with Maya in a way that makes it possible to use in a professional manner. It causes Maya to crash. The renders takes forever, and one frame don’t look the same as the next. I had to spend several months digging into the less then intuitive documentation of the intended work-flow, and had to conclude that they don’t have it! They are selling a software without any idea on how their customers are supposed to use it. I really have better things to fill up my time than to try a million different settings based on intuition, to avoid Vue crashing my systems.

Now, this sounds like a totally annoyed customer, and that is for the most part true. I ended up using Vue for making sky-domes for the project (rendered in standalone mode, not within Maya. Rendertime for a 4096px HDRI skydome with simple cloud settings, 14 hours on a MacPro 8 core 2,8 GHz, 10 GB RAM), and I really think the software has much potential. If only they could make it work, and if they could be honest about Vue NOT being compatible with Maya. That claim is totally false, and I feel ripped off. What they should do, is to ask themself some elemetary questions about how the Maya users want the interface and the functions to be implemented. Or even better: Ask me!

As for my project? Well, after spending too much time trying to get Vue to deliver something semi-professional, the towel was thrown in the ring, and I made the whole nature scene in Maya Paint effects! What a waste of time an money. I really should bill Vue/Eon for wasting my time, and making my life a few years shorter. Looking back on the purchase, I now understand why they would not let me testdrive it first. That again tells me all I need to know about the sales strategy of Vue/Eon. And now they are trying to sell me the “new and improved” Vue 7.5 and 8. I don’t think so…

#36

Well it seems from the Maya users, that the xStream implimentation is not working.

I still have yet to find one max user that says that xStream works for them either.
The other fellow in my industry I know that uses it says the xStream integration is very problematic.

Does anyone know if the licenses are transferable?

We have very little interest in using Vue as a stand alone application.
If it cannot be integrated with Max there is no advantage for us to use it.

David

#37

We wasted a lot of time and eventually gave up on Vue 6 because we couldn’t get rid of flickering at HD resolutions. We tried all the settings you could find on these forums, and could not get the trees/bushes to stop flickering. Not to mention the Vue 6 xStream integration with Cinema 4D didn’t let you modify ANYTHING in the Vue file without crashing C4D.

How does Vue 7 compare to Vue 6 with flickering in animations?

#38

John,

I don’t know how 7 compares to 6 in terms of flickering.

Too bad the xStream integration is not implimented well.

Maybe it should be called xStream-ly-poor-Major-3d-Application-integration.:wink:
(yeah I know, all the Vue guys are gonna flame me for sure, but I think it’s funny).

David

#39

because we couldn’t get rid of flickering at HD resolutions

I’m impressed that you even got xStream to render anything, much less flicker! You have more patience than I.

I am an experienced Maya user…

Honestly it’s nice to hear I’m not the only one who feels that xStream is a steaming pile of doom and shame. I’ve been using Maya professionally for five years now, but even so I thought maybe I just didn’t install the xStream plug-in properly (although I tried it many times) or something, anything that would point to user error instead of a faulty product.

You really should get your money back, if at all possible. Eon didn’t even bother testing the Maya plug-in, it seems. They simply made a MEL menu for it, made sure the plug-in could load, and then moved on.

I too end up using PFX for my plants generally, unless it’s a still shot, where I can get away with some nice Onyx trees. Sorrowfully, it’s nice to hear I’m not the only one who was entirely let down by Vue.

#40

It seems like Vue does the same mistake as Maya in the early days, by for the most part looking at the larger studios and forgetting that the industry mainly consist of small companies with no resources to hire programmers to make the software-integrations work. When I became a Maya Beta-tester my first feedback was: “The Maya render-engine is nowhere close to the A|W Power Animator’s render in terms of quality and stability. The Maya render must be an improvement to the render it replaces!”. The response was that if I wanted render quality I could buy Renderman… As if I could afford that! It took a few years before they finally made a deal with Mental Ray. They should have done that in the very beginning.