Can blender compete in the animation industry

#61

Oh, come on. Those threads are popping out from time to time, because people want to know if they can have future in the industry just working in Blender or if they should learn some other application as well.

I’ve seen lately that a lot of new people to 3D (mostly young people), start with Blender, have some troubles in doing stuff (because they don’t read manual) so they switch to pirated proprietary 3D software thinking the problem lays in Blender. So if I want to work in Blender, I should like to see more people working for serious on it, so I decided to help all those “new guys (or gals)” even if most of them eventually fail at 3D or move to other software. Hope many people feel this way so we can help answering even obviously easy questions in this forum.

#62

Karl, thank you for clarifying what asset management in the pipeline/ 3D package means. It is an whole other dimension on its own and judging on that alone, I see that it is a very important aspect for content management and collaboration in big studios.

Since Blender doesn’t have anything like that remotely (well…there is Verse and linking of objects over from different files, but nothing that sophisticated like you described), I don’t think it can compete in the animation industry even though the animation tool set is kickass now.

@ Letterrip
Yeah, maybe I cam off a little too strong, but I still mean what I wrote. I think Leigh is right on a lot of points, but he’s viewing this topic from a different angle and I sympathize more with your point of view. I just keep remembering why Ton gave us Blender: to bring 3D creation to the masses. Anything else like adaptation in the professional world is a spinoff effect. I would find it rather cool if it meant that the professional world contributes to the advancement of Blender, but it still hasn’t happened to my knowledge (except for the studio Matt Eb was working for).

#63

I feel somebody where I go and you?.

And what’s the matter in that ???

Not necesarily .

PD : Are you know what you are talking about??? .

@ LetterRip ;).
Thanks but i wanna explain you what i think it’s the best way

#64

Si mi amigo, quisas es una problema de lenguage. Pero lo que yo compredia que diceste es que en Blenderartist nadie nos cososcon. Pues es un emplicacion que solamente en CGTalk somos visible.

I tambien diciste que Blenderartist es un mundo privado como cual es un club exclusivo que no toloran extranjeros. Y la palabra “nuestro” y “privado” es un contradicion.

Pero en breve, mi conclusion es que en CGTalk no me siento bienvenido para los usarios de otro paquetes. Nunca es possible aqui para mantener un conversacion civilizado aqui sin que todos los Maya usarios estan criticando el interface de Blender sin un algun merito valido. Hay un actidud bastante antipatico de los otros, y en especialmente los forum leaders y el señor Robert Ortiz es un gran exsepcion de eso. I siguramente la mayoria de los forum leader, si no todos, nunca a usado Blender.

Disculpame para mi Español que es mi tercer lenguage.

#65

There’s no problem my friend but you can’t live if you are worry about the rest .
I live how i want :).
i don’t like robert :).

#66

toontje,

Karl, thank you for clarifying what asset management in the pipeline/ 3D package means. It is an whole other dimension on its own and judging on that alone, I see that it is a very important aspect for content management and collaboration in big studios.

   Since Blender doesn't have anything like that remotely (well....there  is Verse and linking of objects over from different files, but nothing  that sophisticated like you described),  I don't think it can compete in  the animation industry even though the animation tool set is kickass  now. 

 Actually pretty much everything in his list is done already for Durian, and was done for BBB, and Yo Frankie.  That is the whole point of how the library, linking, and appending system and proxying system is done in Blender.
 
 [http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:Manual/Data_System/Linked_Libraries](http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:Manual/Data_System/Linked_Libraries#Linked_Libraries_Overview)
 
 subversion is used for the version management and everything else in his list is handled via the library linking and proxy system.
 
 Ie this quote from Promotion Studios on their production of Lighthouse.

And finally Blender has a fantastic system of linked libraries, stronger than we’ve seen in any other package. It means you can have a character that is fully rigged and the character artist can be fixing and remodeling the character while the library animator can be animating generic moves like walk cycles etc, the scene animator can be setting up cameras and doing acting animation, the light/shade artist can be lighting the scene, and all the while each file is kept up to date with the most recent information using this system of linking. This alone saved us an incredible amount of work.

 [http://www.*********.com/features/promotionstudio/](http://www.*********.com/features/promotionstudio/)

(hmm the link is being filtered out by cgtalk - wierd, you can google the quote…)

Of course that is all using Blend files only - for his studios needs since they are unlikely to use Blends, it would have to be generalized for the types of files and metadata used in their pipeline.

 The one area Karl mentions where Blender falls down is,

If the next job down the pipeline involves using Houdini instead of Maya, then I need tools to convert my work into a form that Houdini can understand and use.

 Exporting (and importing) for certain types of content is still not adequately robust.
#67

Hmm… this does seem to be “the ultimate flame war” all of the sudden!

(And I ask you all, what possible good does it do?)

3D computer graphics actually existed as in the Special Interest Group on Graphics (SIGGRAPH) of the Association of Computing Machinery (ACM) long before there was computing hardware even remotely as powerful as anything that we have today. During all of those delightful, pre-pubescent years, no one would have dreamed of trying to build an impenetrable fence around any of the very-primitive software packages that researchers were then running on equally-primitive computer systems.

Perhaps it would behoove all of us to, first, take a good deep breath, then, take a long draught on a really good :beer:, then acknowledge to one another that there actually is room in this great big wonderful world of “computer graphics” for all of us … and for all of the programs that we use.

There is, and there always has been, a strong tendency, within our collective industry (and I mean “computers,” not merely “graphics”), to construct silos. We all tend to become totally focused … not merely on “what we are doing,” but upon “exactly how we are doing it.” What tool, sometimes even what version. We become so very good at finding solutions and workarounds to problems that we simply stop looking at the problems.

We stop looking for common ground.

We stop being civil. :slight_smile:

Let’s face it: the people in “the Maya silo,” and the people in “the Blender silo,” and the people in “the 3DS-Max silo,” are in fact much more the same than different! We’re all in silos. We’re all using tools that are growing closer together rather than growing farther apart. Some of us are working on monumentally-huge problems for the film industry; others are not. The 3D-graphics profession that we all, each in our own way, “intersect with,” is easily strong and wide enough to simultaneously accommodate all of us, at once. 3D, now, is more than movies; more than games; more than video; more than any one focus.

Maybe at one time 3D was “all about motion pictures.” Maybe to other folks it is and was “all about games.” Or, “video.” The truth is, though … it’s bigger than all of those things combined.

Maybe it’s time for a big reality check here. Maybe it’s time for us to say to one another: “Chill out, dudes and dudettes! The next :beer: is on me! It’s only ones and zeroes!”

#68

toontje, if CGTalk is so awful, please do yourself and everyone else a favour and go somewhere else. All your whining, your self-made victim complex, accusations of elitism and your posting in Spanish is really not adding anything useful to this site. You say that Maya users keep criticising Blender? Well Blender users are equally, if not even more so, guilty of spamming other software threads at every opportunity going on about how awesome Blender is. Pot calling the kettle black there. And what difference does it make if the majority of forum leaders don’t use Blender? Do you really expect them to? Why do you expect everyone to use the same software as you? Stop being such a fanboy. Treating software like a religion really is the biggest waste of energy. Blender doesn’t care about you, so maybe you should ask yourself why you care so much about it. Software is just a tool, nothing more.

LetterRip, I’ll reply properly to your post later when I have more time.

#69

Excuse me but if he have different point don’t mean to send somewhere else.
Don’t see correct .

mmm Why not ??.Spanish is beautiful ;).

#70

Well, on the contrary, I see your all out attack as religious zealotry.
I see Blender for what it is as far as I can see. I see the other packages mostly as the leaders of the pack. I was never judgmental, and I never made claims (if memory serves me well) about the shortcomings of other apps other than Blender. I’m only criticizing the netiquette of certain people. Obviously that is also prohibited o mighty animator of some obscure studio.
But hey, you’re more of a man than I am since you are a professional of the industry, o holy one, so do me a last favor: ban me from CGTalk why don’t you. I’m done with this chickensh*t outfit.
@ Aleksander
He doesn’t like Spanish?? Then I bet he’ll really hate the Spanish translation of Sintel :wink:

Bye!

#71

I’m not a man. And spare me the martyr act, it’s really pathetic.

#72

Alekzsander, we ask all users to please post in English only on this site. This is stated on every reply page - as much as I love languages (and I speak quite a few!), in a large forum like this, we need to choose a common language so that everyone can understand all the posts and that posts do not alienate those who do not speak the language that the post is in.

#73

toontje,

While I truely appreciate your loyalty to Blender, I also find in frustrating in that your discoursive style will almost certainly lead to a slowed adoption to Blender.

Part of the negativity you hear towards Blender on this site, and others, is that it has been drastically oversold in the past. The majority of Blender users are not familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of other packages so cannot provide a fair reckoning of where Blender falls down.

Another issue is that many Blender users are highly reactive and hostile to any criticism of Blender, regardless of merit.

This all results in professional users of 3D software to be (rightfully) skeptical towards any claims of Blenders capabilities by its users.

Also leigh is a woman, please use the correct pronoun.

I really can’t believe how rude and insulting you are being, I find it enormously frustrating. If you don’t care to be here and are unwilling to behave in a respectful manner, if you don’t care for the culture or whatever reason, there are numerous other forums that might be more to your liking.

#74

Heh. And they would be utterly and completely insane to do otherwise. If you are doing multi-million dollar projects that require many years to complete, you do not gratuitously change anything at all.

“Hell, yeah!” you need digital asset management! You need a CG-aware batch scheduling pipeline for massively-parallel processing across very large computing clusters. You are doing something that is very rare in the world of computing: tasks that are simultaneously “physically huge” and “100% CPU-bound.” And, oh yeah, that are subject to a deadline. :argh:

Point is, though … “not all ‘worthy CG projects’ are like that.” There are just as many ‘valid workflow models’ as there are fish in the sea, so to speak. New ‘worthy applications’ of 3D technology are emerging every day, it seems. And the technology itself is advancing in the usual way… “you have to run like hell just to stay where you are.”

This deliberately-provocative thread fell on its face from the very start, as I said from the very start, by failing to define the terms, e.g. “the animation industry.” Various loudspeakers from various “silos” in which Blender is not firmly entrenched started shouting at others where it already is. Each party perceived itself to be "the (only valid) animation industry," and has since argued its point to the point of becoming rather abusive and offensive. (If I may say.)

“The blind men and the elephant.”

Let’s just close & lock this thread, everybody cool off, and let’s move on with our professional lives.

#75

Yes, i always knew that . but there is other way like you said it here :wink:

Well, i don’t know but sintel seems for me pathetic and mediocre.
I can do it much better and profesional too :wink: ( it’s my opinion)

#76

¡Algunos de nosotros hablamos más de un idioma, y por lo tanto comprendió lo que dijeron!

¿La pregunta es, puede deletrear usted la palabra, “professional”?

Ahem. Fluent native English speaker here, and pretty darned good at Spanish. So. How does it feel?

Anyhow: this is way, way, off topic. If this whole thread had anything at all to do with Blender at one time, it has long ago ceased to be so. “Gon-g-g-g-g-g-g-g!!”

(Moderators, if you please?)

#77

??? .

And what’s the problem ??
I write fast sometimes

#78

It blows my mind how professionals (or wanna-be-pros, or would-be-pros … whatever) could be so unprofessional in their communication, especially in a forum like this.

sundialsvc4, Alekzsander, toontje … you will do well to use your PM’s to excercise your language skills. I find your last posts very inappropriate. Please use English.

Hhhmmm,… ironically, as I type this reply, the top of my page reads:

Before posting, please review the following:

[ol]
[li]Be courteous and polite. Show respect to the opinions and feelings of others. Use of the forums is a privilege, not a right.[/li]> [li]Engage your brain before your mouth. You are responsible for your own words and any harm they may cause.[/li]> [li]Don’t dilute the forums with irrelevant and unnecessary fluff. CGTalk is a professional, moderated forum. It’s a place to talk about all things related to computer graphics. [/li]> [li]Critiques and responses to images are to be constructive and related to improving the quality of the artwork. [/li]> [li]Posts should be in English Only.[/li]
[/ol]

#79

Oh, I hope no one got seriously offended by a comment to the effect that the posting was understood perfectly well by some of us. Sure, English is the language-de-jour here.

Here’s where I suggest that we all stand: “let’s shoot this horse and move on.”

“Blender is here, to stay,” and, “nobody else is leaving anytime soon.” Once a piece of software makes it into production status, it becomes a part of a whole that’s worth a whole lot more than it is, and about such things we say: “It works. Don’t :bounce: with it.” If we judge one product’s “success” by its supposed ability to displace something else … fuhgeddaboudit. That don’t happen.

#80

To Leigh:

Actually I agree with what you say. That currently there is no room for Blender in big league organizations. The reasons are many. Software based, Transactions based, some may be even contracts based. Pipelines can have selective problems, since although Modeling and UV are easy to shift around, Blender includes a wide range of features that would end up causing problems in other areas.

On that note, I’m actually not in agreement with “Blender Supremacists”.

However, there are places and houses that do small work where Blender is the only real option because they want to save money, or they see that it fits their values proposition. Is it a wave of change movement? That’s hard to tell. Earlier I said it was possible for Blender to be competitive on a features-by-features basis. I do think this is true. And yes, that is largely because it’s just a tool (if you have the TALENT of course one could do it with whatever software given time). Having so many features only means it can do more for you starting just the same application.

But the point of “Entrenched Packages” is one point that is very important and is a big reason why Blender cannot penetrate “the usual places”. But in places that are just starting up now and would like to start small, Blender is a very good choice actually. The places that do use Blender tend to be obscure right now. Yet, such places do exist. And they continue to do business.

As for archiving this thread… Well… I honestly find more activity here than in the XSI thread a few years back. In fact, having no activity in XSI threads really stopped me from continuing with XSI. In this Blender sub-forum people really help each other to solve problems, and help each other learn Blender (mostly for personal use).

Also this sub-forum is essential precisely because Blender’s documentation is pretty poor. There are features that are either not used properly or are reliant on some other aspect of the software that is not so obvious and you get weird problems now and then. In reality, that may yet be another reason Blender isn’t exactly being used in big studio jobs.

Thanks for the effort and your from-the-industry knowledge.

Cheers.