Body topology

Julez4001 · 2006-01-23 12:58:18 UTC

Trying update my old 2002 Syberha character and bring her into 2006.

Having some problem with her eyelids when they meet in the corners.

kryoboy · 2006-01-23 16:16:05 UTC

hey guys, im faily absent from the thread… for some time now… and will be back in action in a 4 to 5 days.

I had fried 2 quadros in my system due to a power supply failure.:sad:

After dishing hout some lump sums… I should be back here display some new works.

To Steven.

Nice ear - I was wondering what you meant by doing the textures without a brush? Are you baking FG or AO shading into textures?

Yeah is a texture bake… But instead of baking FG… I used a more effective method by using a curveature shader bake…

go to www.lightengine3d.com he has a curvature package that will shade tbhe model based on the curveature of the mesh… It also lets you bake them out!

So no matter the lighting in the scene unlike FG baking u get 100% smooth textures based on the shape and curveature of the mesh…

So set shader to grey and lightgrey to bake…

make one orange and other flesh color in photoshop and apply the orange to the subdermal and the flesh color to epidermal and diffuse.

adjust the orange and skin tone maps to get the skin colorizing you wish and then begin to paint a more dynamic skintone map.

i find the result create a more whitish skintone in bone and cartlidge areas just by using this method alone… if you bake the entire characters skin… you may find some areas to red, and can just paint them out for optimal effect.

animalunae · 2006-01-25 12:06:04 UTC

Hey guys, nice work so far, steven I think the sss is a bit too strong (don’t shoot me if I’m wrong though, don’t have much sss xp)

Here’s a wee little update on the horsy, I redid the ankles (that’s the part that looks like the knee And oh yeah, added a head.

Still looks too young though and there’s plenty of detail to be added with ZB, some topology should be tweaked also…

Stahlberg · 2006-01-25 22:06:15 UTC

Sorry I haven’t replied in a while, I’m busy with the CGWorkshops again.

wclaes, looks good but for the body: I think you’re pushing the throat/neck/head too far back, and the vulva too far forward. I’m not sure about the profile contour from this angle but make sure the stomack isn’t sucked in, that’s not really neutral imo, the stomach is better off fairly flat. That is, from the vulva up through the navel to the breastbone, relatively straight and vertical (or even slightly curved forward over the abdomen). Then, the breastbone angles back to the pit between the clavicles, then the throat angles forward again.
The face is coming along nicely but the eyebrows seem a bit too unrealistic, maybe try lifting them as a texture off a scanned face, and map them on there (you could even try mapping them on a separate surface, that’s what I do). I think that would look better, as long as it’s high-res enough.

requiem, that’s a very good model! I’m not sure I can give you any advice on NURBS hair, because it seems you’ve got it modelled quite well. Maybe when you texture it I can comment further.

LikuidSnake, big improvement!

Dogway, the back is very difficult to do. It changes shape with different movements so much. To reproduce this in animation you probably need either a muscle-based simulator, or very good anatomical knowledge (to create a whole bunch of morf targets), and a complex rig, for instance a deformer below the skin to represent the moving shoulderblades. If you’re just doing this for a still image, you can go ahead and use body-builder references for the back, 3d.sk has some quite muscular guys too but links like these show the ultimate in definition:
http://www.criticalbench.com/male-bodybuilders.htm

Julez4001, maybe you’d like to show a closeup low-res wireframe of the problem area? Overall, she looks very interesting - nice lips! Some grooves along the nose, and the eyebrows could be softer and smoother (see the tip about using scans above).

kryoboy, cool novel use of technology!

Derby, you’re probably right about the sss. Nice horse, a big improvement from the last version I saw I think! But aren’t the hooves too big?

wclaes · 2006-01-26 12:10:02 UTC

Hi Steven, thanks for the comments! You’re doing a great job helping everybody. I certainly learned from this thread. So, in case you want to have another look, I tried to update my model taking your comments into mind and I took a few wire/viewport renders.
(p.10, http://www.elysiun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44647&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=135)

Bryan_Y · 2006-01-26 12:59:27 UTC

Derby, great horse! I have some suggestions and info if you’re interested. I don’t doubt you’re a better modeler than I am, but I may know a few things about horses that could improve your model.

The hooves are a little big, but good horses have good sized feet. It’s a conformational trait - conformation is a term used in the horse business to describe a horse’s proportions and build. It’s all about conformation, and big feet are good. Generally, though, lighter build horses have a little bit smaller feet, and draft horses have huge feet.

Regarding the neck, I was looking at it trying to figure how you could make it a little narrower at the head end and less narrow at the body end, and then I realized what is not very prominent in your model - the withers. The withers are the hump at the top of the shoulder where the neck joins the body. Your horse has no withers!

Regarding the withers, I believe Thoroughbreds have prominent withers, Quarter Horses a little less prominent - just some observations I’ve made. My friend’s Thoroughbred has very prominent withers.

If your horse is a stallion, his neck should be more stout and arched, as the hormones in stallions allow for greated muscular development in the neck. Geldings and mares will have less bulky necks.

From a conformational point of view, the neck is maybe a tad bit ewe necked - not a desirable trait. Again, it depends on what you’re trying to portray.

Regarding the horse’s head - he’s got a roman nose - a common trait among horses. Other horses have dish faced noses (opposite of roman noses). If your horse is to be an Arabian, he must have a dished face. Thoroughbreds typically have straight noses. Same with Quarter Horses. Your horse’s head almost reminds me of an Akhal Teke - I’ve only seen pictures of them - they’re fairly rare.

Arabians have narrow frames (when viewed from the front) and are not stockily built. Your horse has a good build on him - conformationally, his body, forearms and hind end resemble a quarter horse. If he’s a cow horse, then he’s got a good build, but perhaps if that was the case he could benefit from even a little bit more muscle in the chest and forearm area.

His nostrils are pretty good - just remember, a conformationally desireable horse has good sized nostrils. It’s hard to tell from this angle, but the inner part of the nostril might want to deflect a little bit more into the interior space of the nostril.

Anyway, I’m pretty impressed with your model, and my comments are only here to help you take it to the next level. Also, as I said, the purpose of the horse plays a huge role in his shape.

To recap: Thoroughbreds (1 1/4 milers) are tall, lean, fairly muscular, and have prominent withers.

Arabs (100 milers) are slender and narrow, and have dish faces.

Quarter Horses (cow horses) are muscular, a little bit shorter (than Thoroughbreds).

Destriers (War horses of yesteryear) are stout and huge.

Warmbloods (Dressage and Jumpers) are as big or bigger than Thoroughbreds and are a little bit more stout, but not stout like a war horse or a draft horse.

Arched necks are good, big feet are good. Straight legs are good. Moderately prominent withers are good. Handsome faces matter.

Anyway, you probably know all this stuff. What are you going to use your model for?

A classic picture showing Secretariat’s excellent conformation. Note his neck and withers (picture is a bit small though): http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/biographies/secretar.htm

Arab (with an arched neck): http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/images/arabian-horse.jpg

Arab (dish face and small ears): http://www.msuarabians.com/images/main-image.jpg

Thoroughbred (Secretariat) stallion, stout neck, moderate withers: http://richmondthenandnow.com/Images/Famous-People/Secretariat.jpg

Stout neck: http://www.horse-vacation.com/img/ShirazRafe.jpg

Quarter Horse type, good looking conformation, handsome face: http://7art-screensavers.com/screenshots/Graceful_Horses/elegant-horse.jpg

Appaloosa with Quarter Horse build: http://www.idsos.state.id.us/elect/horse.jpg

The very handsome face of Secretariat: http://www.hi2winners.com/tc/secretariat.jpg

You probably know there are about 100 or more horse breeds, each with their own conformational traits. I tried to hit on some of the major ones.

shadowman99 · 2006-01-26 23:04:24 UTC

An update on my mesh in progress.

Cleveland · 2006-01-28 09:17:21 UTC

hi stephen, et al. thought i would post up my latest render for your criticism. there’s a couple of jaggies due to deformation issues, but i’m in the process of fixing them now.
stephen, smooth work on those facial deformations. i’m about to struggle with mine soon…

cleveland

Bryan_Y · 2006-01-28 21:17:26 UTC

Derby,
Some further notes on horse shapes/topology:

Above the eyebrow on most horses (usually more prominent on older horses) is an indentation. It also pulses when the horse chews. I notice it's non-existent on your model.

Another common feature is a prominent skull component extending longitudinally with the face from the bottom of the eye about halfway towards the nostril - it's very prominent on most horses.

For visuals on both of the above described features, look here and here:
[http://www.hi2winners.com/tc/secretariat.jpg](http://www.hi2winners.com/tc/secretariat.jpg)

[http://www.msuarabians.com/images/main-image.jpg](http://www.msuarabians.com/images/main-image.jpg)

A simplistic and easy way to visualize nostrils and ears when viewing a horse face on is this: The nostrils and the ears are comma/apostrophe shapes turned upside down. Some horses have this look moreso than others - but it's a definite 'curly' feature to the shape of those sensors.

The topology of the ear should anticipate a deformation/rigging that will allow a rotation about its longitudinal axis nearly 180 degrees, as the ear pivots around to sense sounds in all directions - each independently of the other. They pivot about and lay back to indicate anger and a threatening posture as well.

With regard to teeth, the front incisors will become more parrot shaped the older the horse gets - in other words, they tend to curve moreso with age. Wolf teeth are fangs between the incisors and the molars - sometimes present and sometimes not.

The vein (I see now that it is not a vein but a muscle border, but it looks like a vein) on your model rising through the forearm and into the chest seems too prominent - I hang around horses a lot and pet and stroke that area frequently, and my eyes and fingers typically don't encounter that.

A search on Google with keywords 'horse conformation' should yield up an excellent set of resources, visual and textual. There are whole books with that title as well.

Link and visuals for foot conformation: [http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hollis/bestfoot.htm](http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hollis/bestfoot.htm)

Andalusians are spectacular horses (Think Vienna Riding School). Here's a hires image which really drives home the concept of upside down commas/apostrophes with regard to ears and nostrils, as well as huge stout necks on stallions: [http://www.skeltonandalusians.com/Jpeg%20Pics/Field%20conformation%20shot.jpg](http://www.skeltonandalusians.com/Jpeg%20Pics/Field%20conformation%20shot.jpg)

Arabians have one less vertebrae and set of ribs, usually resulting in a slightly shorter torso.

One of the interesting things you might want your topology in the mouth area to allow is flehmen - natural reaction to aid in smelling: Pictures: 
[http://borntobewild.planetaclix.pt/imagens/flehmen.jpg](http://borntobewild.planetaclix.pt/imagens/flehmen.jpg)
[http://www.seaworld.org/infobooks/Clydesdales/images/flehman.gif](http://www.seaworld.org/infobooks/Clydesdales/images/flehman.gif)
[http://www.world-wildlife.de/photographik_europa/image/flehmen.jpg](http://www.world-wildlife.de/photographik_europa/image/flehmen.jpg)
[http://membres.lycos.fr/chevalsurlenet/flehmen.jpg](http://membres.lycos.fr/chevalsurlenet/flehmen.jpg)

Movie of flehmen: [http://zoo2.zool.kyoto-u.ac.jp/ethol/showdetail-e.php?movieid=momo030613ec01b](http://zoo2.zool.kyoto-u.ac.jp/ethol/showdetail-e.php?movieid=momo030613ec01b)

The movie also happens to show good ear movement. To animate, you're best off observing horse's ear movement with regard to the rider, distractions, things of interest, etc. Don't always animate them in the same direction!

The pupil of a horse's eye is horizontal. Some horses have visible whites around their eyes. Some horses have very bright blue eyes - or one blue eye - generally only on Paints. Some horses are linebacked (duns) - common among Mustangs. If you want to see some seriously good wild horse documentary I highly recommend the DVD "Cloud, Wild Stallions" ( [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000CBXZX/qid=1138511747/sr=1-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9545065-9184919?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=130](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000CBXZX/qid=1138511747/sr=1-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9545065-9184919?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=130) ), an extraordinary video showing some serious horse fighting, dominance plays, interplay, mating, grazing, general behavior and altogether excellent footage of horse movement.

EDIT: typos.

jjcoolio · 2006-01-30 22:28:19 UTC

WOW, Bryan. You must be the lord of horses. Superb crits!

DivineRAiN · 2006-02-01 12:46:28 UTC

Hope someone here can help. I loaded the file that I just saved today… it loaded the spheres (eyes), eyelashes, and the mirrorcutplane, but she’s gone. This is not how I saved it. In the script editor there’s a long list of warnings which says
Warning: Can’t perform loopSplit70 on disabled selection
Warning: Can’t perform polySplit1267 on disabled selection
Warning: Can’t perform polySplit1268 on disabled selection

it goes on and on. I didn’t notice I was working on something that was disabled. The warnings have been showing up for a while, but because it didn’t seem like anything was actually disabled I didn’t worry much about it. I didn’t make a lot of changes before saving it to a new file, some of the arm needed to go so smooth would work. Now I’m skittish about doing any more edits coz if I save it, she might be gone when I load the file, and then I’ll be back to where I have to edit the arm again. That file also has those warnings, it isn’t such a long list tho. Probably all the files have some of the same warnings. Using version 6.0 with mjpolytools.

when I was typing up my post I started to suspect the problem had to do with the combination of mjpolytools and the mirrored object. It started to seem like that was the case when I did a test on an older file that had some warnings. After deleting the mirror half the file loaded without the warnings. It didn’t solve anything with a recent file, it loads with warnings. I made a few cuts on a cube with mjpolytools and it loads with warnings, but when I use maya’s tools I don’t get warnings. =(

Nothingness · 2006-02-01 16:57:30 UTC

Hi all,

i’ve tried to read the intire thread but ended at about the 52th page of the +125.
Sinds i didn’t find any awnsers to the questions i have maybe i just post them now and get on with it.

Sinds it’s a toppic about Topology I wonder about the time just before the modeling!

Does one first do a lot of research on reference images?

i gathered about +1300 pics of the female body with al kinds of deformation, muscles and shapes. But I don’t have a single great image of a body perfectly frontal of from the side.

Do you model from a simple correct shape, and add detail and loops/topology to it on feeling and research?

If it is already noted in this thread: no need to repeat it! A hint could help me find it

i’ll try to get enough info before I really start to model. Or I’ll start soon as Derby-Q-Salano starts the lessons! Looking forward to it.

thanx for the huge thread that takes 3 eavenings to read

Nothingness · 2006-02-01 17:16:32 UTC

hey bryan !

You have some great tips/hints/suggestions for derby to do a great job on his horse. But in his thread - solely for his horse - you sead that all your comments would be a bundling for when you start to model your own.

Don’t misunderstand me, but woudn’t it be better to post these huge posts at that tread? I guess it would also be better for others seaking all info about the topology of a horse.

Also, when this tread becomes even larger, it would be hard to find your posts again!

jhall · 2006-02-02 11:54:29 UTC

been working on this for a few days. i’m new to organic, polygonal modelling. very nice, artist friendly workflow…

anyway, i’m still trying to get the massing correct. no detail work done at all. love some pointers as i’m new to human modelling (never thought i’d actually need those anatomy books i have from school days – lol).

btw, the figure is supposed to be skinny and fleshy – definitely not a body builder.

Stahlberg · 2006-02-02 17:59:03 UTC

Warning: Can’t perform polySplit1268 on disabled selection

Yes, I’ve also seen this warning a lot, it comes from using MJPolyTools, which I did for over a year (not any more though, since they’re now baked into v7).
But I never had any real trouble that I could notice… nothing disappearing or not working or even slowing down. So, your disappearing geometry may have another cause. Disappearing geometry is very rare in Maya - knock on wood!!! - but it once happened to me a couple years ago, when a Save was incomplete (which I only found out later).

BTW I think you can get rid of the warning, if it annoys you, by deleting the MJPolyTools nodes in the Hypergraph - but remember first to delete the connection to the next node you want to keep, that bakes the history. (Ordinary history-deleting will not get rid of some MJPT nodes.)

Stahlberg · 2006-02-02 18:02:22 UTC

Does one first do a lot of research on reference images?

Yes, that’s right. 3d.sk is the best resource for this, both for modeling and for texturing.

Do you model from a simple correct shape, and add detail and loops/topology to it on feeling and research?

Yes, I suppose you could put it that way. From a simpler shape, originally perhaps just a cube, gradually to a more complex one.

edit:
jhall - dude, you don’t need any help! That’s one of the best torsos I’ve ever seen!

jhall · 2006-02-02 18:51:16 UTC

stahlberg, thanks. high praise coming from you. :bowdown: i guess i’ll keep going then! lol.

a note on 3d.sk:

i’ve signed up for this service. this is really a must have. i haven’t seen ANYTHING comparable to this service. we have some REALLY good art book stores here in LA with many life drawing resources – i didn’t find anything better suited to modelling than 3d.sk.

that said, after spending a bunch of time with a few of the models (in fact the torso above was started from David at 3d.sk) it won’t get you all the way. models, even ones so very nicely presented as 3d.sk, aren’t very symmetrical, and are very flatly lit (because they are also serving as texture references) making it difficult to get an idea of shape. i highly suggest 3d.sk and a good anatomy reference. when i was doing the torso, i thought i could do the whole thing just tracing the image. that only gets you so far. at some point you find yourself asking: “if that lump goes there, where should this lump begin.” the pictures give you feeling and surface detail, but the anatomy reference gives you an idea of what’s going on underneath. this can be important during animation – when the arm raises, the shoulder blade swings.

nothingness, as someone who just went through what you are asking about here’d be my tips:

good image reference: 3d.sk. side note: i was worried about giving my credit card to a former soviet state after hearing so many scam stories, etc. but there are many good reviews on the web and the service is professional and doesn’t feel one bit shady. spend time in photoshop with your images. squash, stretch and retouch them to taste, but make sure that they line up! the iris on the front view should exactly match the iris in the side view. this seems easy but there’s also the nipples, the clavicle, the ears, the bottom of the ribs, the navel, etc. all have to basically line up or the image won’t help that much. it also helps to draw some darker lines (not too thick though) on the areas that are subtle in the image such as the lats, the divots where the hip bone protrudes – all the sweeping lines that are soft and subtle but important (see thumbnail).
anatomy book. for what’s under the surface.
use the extruded cube technique that stahlberg recommends. i followed some his screenshots from past wips and it worked great. it’s just a starting point. the final mesh will break the geometry up quite a bit. use the cube to get the basic form. get the basic form and mass – don’t worry about where individual vertices go at that point, get it to feel heavy. i’m just saying this because for the torso i tried, spline skinning to polys, direct polygon creation, and extruding cube faces – all different modelling styles commonly used. i found the cube to work well not because it gets you especially close to the final shape but because it helps you get a sense of mass.
reference points. the basic process seems to be the same for everyone: create large masses, rough out the basic areas (chest, arms, legs, etc.), then smoothing and shaping, then details. at all stages i found it helpful to have a few key vertices that you try not to move too much. for example, as you develop the silouette from the side view, place a vertex at the navel, the nipple, any unambiguous points that will never change. the reason for this is that there is no amount of tracing accuracy that will make the model look right in 3d. there will be a LOT of tweaking and small moves. the reference points become important because it is VERY easy to lose your bearing. you tweak and tweak, and it’s starting to look good – then you zoom out and realize that your 3d model has gained a good 50 pounds on the reference! the reference points keep you from going too far.

anyway, there are many people here that are really really good, and i got a lot of these tips from there wips and tutorials. i just thought i’d throw this on the fire because i JUST went throught this process and started the model over several times. hope it helps.

cheers all.

odf · 2006-02-03 00:41:08 UTC

Hi everyone,

This is a fascinating thread. Lots of beautiful models and interesting points of discussion, very useful and inspiring! Thought I’d just throw in a snapshot of the model I am working on. Any advice would be great. I am a complete greenhorn at this, but I got kind of addicted, and kept at it. I followed the tutorials at secondreality.ch to get started, but made lots of changes after that.

Cheers, Olaf

DivineRAiN · 2006-02-03 08:22:43 UTC

Steven, omg… it’s no use to even try editing my hypergraph. It takes about an hour or more to delete 1 node, it takes longer than that for maya to load the output connections for the cubeshape node. Things did slow down a lot, selecting… creating edges with the polytools (I use them 99% of the time to create new edges). What I ended up doing today was exporting the mesh out as an obj and then importing into a new scene. Took a screenshot of what it looked like in my hypergraph

one thing more I wanted to ask… what is a good way to make the eyes? When I exported the mesh I had to leave the spheres behind… figured now was a good time to get started on the eyes. I’ve looked at a few tutorials, I remember one used 2 spheres (one inside the other). Made me wonder what method ppl posting in this thread uses.

Cleveland · 2006-02-03 11:43:36 UTC

because i get so much help/advice/inspiration from this thread, i thought i would post my latest test. there are issues with the pose (i forgot to rotate her clavicle). there are a couple of deformtion issues which remain in her elbows and wrists. anybody have any idea of how to do hinge deformations nicely without blends or PSD’s? and in the render her eyes are getting a double shot of light which freaks them out. other than that, i’m pretty happy, but any feedback C+C as usual is helpful. 20000 poly’s in render. rig is fk/ik switchable with broken fk hierarchies. cane-toad style shoulders and forearms. 16 blends (8+8) taking care of the rest. huge SSS texture maps which i’ll probably reduce to render out animation. never mind the seams, she’s gonna get a dress… please ignore the environment/shadows.

@divineRain, how dyou get your hypergraph so pretty looking???..

cleveland.