Body topology

#1521

Thank you for the answers, Stahlberg, very quick and helpful as usual :slight_smile:

#1522

any of you planning on entering something to exotique? I have sketched up a new scene to submit before the oct. 3 deadline… If anyone else is please feel free to post your work here I will happily critique. I know for sure I will be needing your fresh eyes to present quality work.

I will be able to work every day before deadline so I will be posting Wip here, as it still pretains to the subject of the thread…

keep up the work everyone.

#1523

hey steven,
here is an update of that warrior im doing, i worked a little on the pecs, and have started doing the abs. the arms, are still lacking detail, gonna get to those next. how is this lookng so far??

#1524

hey baker, i think your proportions need more correction before you begin to play with the less important details. the arms and really short, and the size of the torso seems very tiny in proportion to the head… the back details look good but would look better if the proportions were more believeable.

a tip in the abs department… is you dont need to chizel them in… try something more fluid and soft, with minor hints of muscle shape. The skin rides over our muscle and isnt super-glued to them, so a more realistic vision of abs would be more like rolling hills, and not an egg-crate for example…

keep up the work.

trying to get it all in the right places, and right sizes… please let me know if anything looks akward.

its pretty ruff in a few places… like the hard edge below the ribcage… this is pretty much just a screen cap while im at work.

was working on the shoulders when i took this screen capture.

cya around.

#1525

thank you steven
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
[left]like ur comments steven [/left]
[size=2][left]i will inform u after complition of designing the ear[/left]
[size=2][left]is the face look good[font=Tahoma] ?[/left]
[left][/left]
[/size][/size][/font]

#1526

great work dr.maya keep it up

#1527

like ur work dr.maya its looks great

#1528

hey stahlberg,
i know this isnt related to this forum. i just wanteed to know if i could ask you to check out this thread i started in the art techniques, theories forum. im using it as a discussion for a research topic that im doing. and having your opinion, would really be great towards it. heres the link, hope it works.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=266598&page=1&pp=15

#1529

First she was anime(manga) style girl, but I don’t like her and I remaked Mako in realistic woman. Her phenotype must be at the intersection of asian(japan) and european, that’s why her face was taken from japan model Haruka Igawa and body is improvisation of many different womans…
What do you think? Anatomy? Topology? C&C welcome :slight_smile:



Orthographic views:
Front
Back
Rignt
Face

#1530

Hi everyone

This is my first attempt at a body to go with the head I did. It still has a way to go with the modelling, but I wondered if anyone had any comments about the topology so far? (I still need also to remove extra lines around the seam).

Any help very much appreciated, thanks.

Amy

#1531

Baker17, his back, hands, face and deltoids-attachment to the shoulder look fabulous. His biceps look a little rubbery and the abdomen muscles look a little blocky, otherwise great.

Kryoboy, nice update. You’re working on the shoulders you say, and I can see a bump out of place on the top of the deltoid, I guess you know about that.
Generally speaking, her legs and arms seem a tiny bit too thick to match the torso, and the hip-joints seem quite far apart, giving her a wide stance with some more space between the legs than I’d consider normal. But this is minor points.

[left][size=2][size=2]is the face look good[font=Tahoma] ?[/size][/size][/font][/left]

I think so, it’s hard to see the shape, but the topology looks ok.

Eugene, very good, I especially like everything from ankle to navel, the arms and hands (though the palm-area seem a bit thin in one view). The head from what I can see at this distance looks good too. The feet/heels need a littlte bit more work, the shoulderblades seem a bit too far apart, and the edge of the ribcage on the abdomen I’m not sure if it would be so visible in someone with such relatively soft looking body (low muscle tone) and in such a relaxed pose. Topology is ok except I think the fold in front of the pelvis that forms when the thigh bends forward would run slightly less steeply up from the groin to the iliac crest (which means you may have trouble later, with the deformations. Or maybe not, test it first by putting a simple rig on it and bending it).

Amy, looks fine so far, just make sure you have excellent reference and you’re on the right track. Seeing the lowres cage would help better to judge the topology.

#1532

Hi Stahlberg

Thanks for your reply. [silly question deleted]

EDIT - Sorry for being a noob, I think I’ve figured out how to do what I was asking about now.

Here is the unsmoothed one.

Amy

#1533

Hi guys, does anyone have any opinions on my current head, taken from thread here

Bear in mind it’s still a WIP (the ears and neck are dreadful)

Ta

#1534

Mr. Stahlberg could you or any one else let me know how this topology is thanks guys

http://www.transonicaviation.com/3dpic/femmloop.jpg

http://www.transonicaviation.com/3dpic/femnose.jpg

http://www.transonicaviation.com/3dpic/eyeloop.jpg

#1535

2 Matt B:

Opinion about your head there! As a matter of fact I do…it’s more like an advice and I’m only going to pick this one thing, but it’s important and could inspire some other thoughts about such topography issues… LIPS:

Well, as you currently have it, it’s more like two pipes that stay on the surface of the face from mouth angle to mouth angle. It won’t ever look or feel really natural that way…unless you’re trying to hit Julia Roberts MAYBE and only maybe…hehe! So the idea is, that as you come to the angle of the mouth you curl the topography to the inside! Reroute the directional flow of edges, so that they lead towards the inside! If you look at lips very carefully and with the right mindset, you’ll be able to observe that the geometrical or 3d definition of the lips doesn’t go all around the mouth, but rather develops towards the center of them. That means that at the angles of the mouth they are much more smooth against the skin. Curling the edges towards the inside will also support this type of feature!

And here’s one very general observation: WHY ON EARTH SO MANY POLYGONS?!? By now it’s almost unthinkable not to work with displacements and therefore generally not to involve Zbrush in the production of anything organic, really! Even for animating your head the amount of polygons is already overkill, whereby the general topography is alright and not bad, although I personally don’t like any triangles in my models, but it’s not really a religion…yet…hehehe… :smiley:

Alright, now then…let’s do some more feedback…well, you’ve somewhat misinterpreted some features of her face, but that’s challengling anyway. However, really try to understand for instance the bulging of the cheeks. You’ve basically made it like a sort of carricature of her, mimiking it on a first level observation so to say. Bring the cheek into a 3d relationship to the upper mouth area and reconsider the amount in which they come forward compared to it! The upper mouth area in general suffers mostly from anatomical disregard, in other words, if you would consider the anatomy of a face a bit more, you’d correct the curvature or forward shape of it relatively easily. Same goes for the nose, it is a bit flat on the bottom side! You could also consider the same idea behind the curling inwards of the lips for the nostrils. Currently the kinda loop to the inner ribbon of the nose. It could look more elegantly and more natural, if the edges underneath the noise would rather loop into the nose…similar to the lips thus. Well…
Well…
Well…
that’s about that! Nice start though! I know it will be a true shock, if you see her from the side and compare it to your model…it’s sometimes a bit surprising! :eek:

Good job, though, really…don’t get me wrong! :thumbsup:

Taron

#1536

Stahlberg: Ednometry, your mesh is very good. Solid start, not too dense or too light… shape seems very good and realistic, at least the main contours (it’s hard to judge the shape unsmoothed and with wireframe). Topology, mostly good, but a few things I’m wondering about… the butt seems locally very light, maybe a couple more edges across it to better define it when the hip goes forward. And those very long narrow polygons on the legs, one above the knee, some others on the back of the leg… they may cause unwanted ridges to form.

Thank you very much for taking the time to comment on my model Mr. Stahlberg, I have made the changes you suggested as well as a few suggested by my employer. Im preparing the rig for the model and getting the details for rest of the project, but I still feel as though her face is not attractive enough. I have studied the concepts of “www.beautyanalysis.com” and used their beauty mask as a reference along with several others, but I still feel she could be more attractive. Anyone have any suggestions or see anything that I can’t (I spend way too much time staring at this to be objective anymore), any help would be oppreciated.

#1537

Hey Taron, first thing: I’m a big fan of your work, thanks very much for the crit :slight_smile:

On the lips I agree with you, I was a little distracted by the big lipstick on my ref images so I somewhat exaggerated the size of the lips (particularly upper) on my model. I’m going to look into redoing the topology on the upper lip as I ended up with quite a lot of spare edges there which I didn’t want to triangulate, this is definitely something I’ll look into.

With regards to polycount, well again I agree but only to a point. Firstly I don’t have access to Zbrush at uni :/. I suppose I could consider buying a copy myself but I’m poor ;), so unfortunately doing most of the detailing in Zbrush isn’t an option.
Also, I’m not a massive fan of doing details through displacement for facial work, apart from your work (damn that sounds lame) I’ve barely seen any heavily displaced facial animation which doesn’t look rubbish, particularly for a young female face I don’t see any real need for displacement. I know that you’re very keen on your current displacement heavy workflow but I think it’ll be a while before I adopt it. Also I plan to use this face (or more likely a variant) for about 15 seconds of hopefully highly polished facial animation for my major project next year, I want to go for something highly detailed so I want to have enough polys to play around with.
Despite all this I’ll agree it’s a little dense, this is the first time I’ve worked in pure quads (not sure where you spotted a triangle) and I’ve ended up with a lot of edge loops which aren’t strictly necessary from a detail standpoint but are more there to preserve the flow of quads. The large amount of edges that terminate on the upper lip is a symptom of this.

This is the first time I’ve attempted a photoreal head, let alone of a real person so yeah I’m finding mimicing features accurately really hard! Getting the defining features correct to the right subtlety is proving really tricky. I’d say that there’s some inconsistency in how far the nose, mouth and cheeks are from each other which is again something I’ll look into. Also I’d agree on the nose, it still needs a fair bit of TLC but I’m not entirely sure on how you’re describing the topology flow, would it be possible to draw a diagram?

Anyway, thanks again for the advice! I’m finding this the hardest bit of modelling I’ve done but I’ll carry on plugging away at it. :slight_smile:

#1538

AHHH, you’re right, there was no triangle…I think I was still traumatized from the other models… :cry: HAHAHAHAHA :wip:

Anyway, have you seen my “people” clip?
“People” Thread at ZBC

It ain’t the best facial animation, nor the best setup, considering that the whole thing only took 7 days, spending about 3 days on coming up with the easiest possible rig to do a full minute of facial animation combined with the general idea of alternating displacementmaps.

However, I’ve used displacement on facial animations long before Zbrush was able to do such things and can only assure you, that displacements are currently the only reasonable way with which you can adequately simulate fine facial deformations like wrinkles or even just squashing of certain skin areas. It’s virtually impossible to do that with polygons only and a big reason for why CG animations always feel, well, like CG animations.

More so, you should talk your university about Zbrush and introduce them to the idea of making it part of their programs! It’s truely a part of the most expectable future for computer graphics and should be an element of any serious educational program. Even while other package will eventually try to compete or implement features of the likes of Zbrush, they technically can’t keep up with the level of innovation that is found in it and the mind of its maker! His autonomy and rare combination out of brilliant artist and programmer can pretty much guarantee that it’s always going to be ahead of the game and therefore Zbrush will be found in each major production as it is already found in the most influencial houses out there. As a student it might be your goal to become a professional visual effects artist and therefore your school should prioritize the concept of preparing you in the best possible way for that task. Now I could sneak in a whole thing on messiah:Studio, but eh…the reality there is, we’re not in every major studio, yet…even though we’re on our way, but well…just a few months, I think. Things are brewing… :drool:

Anyway, you’re doing a great job and hopefully you’ll be able to share your animation with us, too!?

Taron

#1539

Okay, I guess we’ve done this round previously but still I’m going to write about it :slight_smile:

Working with animated displacements still needs quite some ironing out IMHO. Simple things like the tiny wrinkles in the corners of the eye or on the sides of the nose are ideal for this approach, but complex lip and cheek deformations with sliding skin etc. are a tough nut to crack. Not to mention that Zbrush doesn’t support more than a single morph target per object, so you’ll have to switch between two apps at the same time to build your rig. This would be too complicated for a mid to large sized studio where you’d have traditional painters/sculptors working in Zbrush to detail and texture the models. And as good and unique a package Zbrush is, there are still many many little quirks and problems and annoying things in it. For example, I have to spend a considerable amount of my time with providing technical support for out Zbrush guys here to fix various problems. Or, just how complicated is it to work with multiple textures per object? A movie quality character would need more than a single 4K map for its head…

If and when other packages implement such features and provide a more integrated enviroment, it may be a more realistic option.

In my opinion, using a dense mesh and a corrective morphing system is still the best approach for photorealistic creatures, while toon characters are best done using some combination of joints, deformers and morphing (you really can’t displace Scrat from Ice Age). Game developers are pretty much struck with bones because of the serious memroy constraints; and even if the Playstation4/Xbox3 would support real time displacement mapping in the far future, it still wouldn’t be feasible to use dozens of texture maps per character for facial animation alone.

#1540

That’s just not right, actually, even with the risk of starting a more heated discussion here, which I in this case would find quite redundant, but anyway…here it goes:

It’s all a matter of technique and clever combination! I came up with a principle that even in its early stages shows to be quite successful. This allows the sculptor to work in only two or three phases that only require little explanation!

1 - sculpt foundation without wrinkles, other than heavy wrinkles which would leave visible creases even without pinching/deformation of skin (crow’s feet and such).

2 - create one wrinkle map of all fine wrinkles and heavy buldging for the pinching into one direction at all wrinkling zones

3 - create a second wrinkle map that takes care of the remaining directions

Now for the rigging all it requires is a careful alpha blending that is automated towards a “muscle” setup, that can be created using bones. This rig reveals/fades in the wrinklemaps according to the pinching direction. They accumulate on top of each other, so they can be freely combined.

A 4k map is highly sufficient for a face, even until very tight close-ups. What usually causes the trouble is not the map resolution, but the resolution that was used for the Zbrush divisions. This is also, where most of the trouble lies, because it simply a bit tough at times to work at high division levels! But between projection master and a decent hiding routine even that can be pleasantly taken care of.

This is all besides the fact that Zbrush was showing a direction in version 2.0 and is already now ready to go far beyond that. I’m being very realistic here and not mindlessly hyping and I’m ready to ask you to trust me! :slight_smile: