Body topology


#1481

Hi guys! This is my first post in this forum but I’m reading it for quite a long time and i’m amazed by the amount of creativity and informations I can find around.

I’m not a professional 3d modeler, I try it a little for fun. I’m actually working as an orthopedic surgeon so I have a different point of view. I’m maybe drifting off the original topic, but it could be interesting to share my opinion. ( and btw sorry for my poor english)

When i see this topology thread and the pictures posted I can’t avoid thinking about some anatomic issues that are usually totally forgotten when modeling a 3d body.

The first is probably the effect of weight on tissues:
Try to look at your legs in front of a mirror to understand what i’m talking about. The main “layers” are the bones, the muscles, the fat tissues and the skin. Lots of people build up their 3d characters thinking mostly about the skin and bone layers. This is quite important, of course, but the muscles and fat tissues give the realistic shape of a CG body or face. 3D modeling masters have an outstanding knowledge of anatomy and it’s quite easy to see it in their 3d body topology. It can also be seen in the way they build up the volumes.
I’ll use an image posted by master Stahlberg as an example ( i hope you don’t mind, kryoboy. your work is really good :-)) :

http://www.androidblues.com/body4se.jpg

Now look at the hips of the left girl. If you look at an anatomy book, you will see that there is a muscle ( facia lata tensor) running from the iliac crest (the largest part of the pevis) to the lateral part of the leg. The major muscle (quadriceps) build the shape of the thigh .If you build your 3d model only with these informations, you’ll end up with something that looks too much CG because you forget the effect of gravity on the fat and muscle tissues and your anatomy book tells you that those 2 muscles build the outer shape of the thigh. Female bodies have a deep fat layer in front of the hip and with the effect of gravity, it will move down a lot. Then, the quadriceps builds the front shape of the thigh but not the lateral (partially, actually). Check the image i gave as a reference to see what i mean. Keep it in mind when adding volume details like that.
Now have a look at the feet. It’s quite easy to use some anatomy painting as background to build up a foot. But as every modeler knows, it’s damn hard to make a realistic 3d foot. Feet carry the weight of the body. The layer between the plantar part and the bone is made of a very “airbag-like” fat tissue. So when you walk or carry your weight on your foot, it doesn’t behave as a bone volume but more as a soft tissue volume. If you look at the image you ll see that the lateral part of the foot is more compressed than the internal part because the ankle is rotated a little toward it and because the tibia is not a pure straight bone, but is bent a little. Then, the foot can’t have the same morphology has a foot not carrying weight. Your topology has to take care of it if you are planning to animate your foot. I know it can looks like a little detail. But that kind of detail can bring lots of realism to an organic 3d body.

Let’s say your amazing 3d knight has recieved a sword hit in the knee years ago, try to imagine the dynamic effect of it on his body. The wound was probably painfull so he has used the other leg much more, building up his muscles on it.The sword has created a scar on it, so most of the skin around it will be stretched (remember that a big scar always has a contractoin effect on skin, like a seam on fabric) toward the scar and you ll probably have to change a little your topology to have the most realistic movement of the skin layer if you need a close-up shot of the knee. If the wound was too bad and the knight has had an amputation of the lower leg, he probably NEVER would us the muscles of his upper leg so you can’t just copy/paste the other leg on it. Muscles loose lots of volume if you don’t use them.
So the injured limb will be thin compare to the other.

BTW, muscles use fibers to contract, so they always deform according to them. That’s a major problematic when talking about topology. Be sure to always have anatomy studies or images as references when building your character topology. This is quite obvious when creating a human character, but keep it in mind when creating an alien…if you want some muscle on your alien, then you have to follow the fibers rules…

I could spend lines and lines of writing to explain some of those issues. I see body from the inside most of the day, so i slowly begin to understand how muscles, bones and skin interact. It’s also a major issue when talking about rigging, texturing etc… but i think anatomy has to be really integrated into topology. Not only static anatomy, but also dynamic anatomy. Rigging and animation will be much more realistic if you have understood the bio-mecanic structures of the body.

Your best reference is probably the mirror in front of you whatever you are trying to model, a 20yrs old gogo dancer, an old woman, a horse or a 100 feet monster. Watch you face when you smile, your knee when you bend it. Try not only to see the wrinkles in your skin but also what can be under it, how structures slide one on an other, where are the bones, the fat, the muscle… I’m sure it will help your topology.

And kke pup the good work :slight_smile:


#1482

Plasmodium - all i can say is what a beautiful post! the perspective you bring to the table is great! love it! thank you for posting all the great info.


#1483

In regard to what has been said about skin sliding…

if creating the perfect body is the goal, and animating it too, then surely building intricate topology around underlining muscles is the incorrect way of doing it?

Take the back for example - this has many different muscles, bones and fat that all shift around and move into different places when you move different parts of your body like your arms. Surely if this detail has been modeled in with topology that flows around these things then as soon as the body moves into a different position to the modeled position the topology will be wrong as these bones, muscles and fat have moved into different areas.

Would it not make more sense to model the character with a more unified topology, say, on the back instead of there being edge loops and topology flowing in all different directions, have it so its just horizontal and vertical edges with there being equal distances between each edge, so that when the skin does slide and form different shapes?

Because at the end of the day, what we are modeling here is the skin of a character, and its what lies beneath this that forms the shape of a body, the skin then just wraps onto this in a unified way…
I think a lot is commented on with character modeling, which is fine if the goal is a still image, but I still dont think enough emphasis is made on the rigging side of character creation, a model may look great in the T-pose it was modeled in, but if it doesnt deform well then a good T-pose model is meaningless.


#1484

You’re on to something here… But I’d not make the lines horizontal/vertical; first the loops should still follow the general contours of the body… and the secondary guideline should be the direction that the skin travels in.

The other thing here is that it’s easier to slide the skin when you have quadrangular topology. But I already see Steve bringing out some rather large hammer, so I’ll stop here :)))


#1485

Hehe… no hammer today, thought I’d try a lead pipe for a change… :slight_smile:

If I can have the same control over deformations as I do with morph targets now, sure, bring on the sliding skin. You talking about Comet’s muscle plugin? Cause that’s the only way I know of atm… but I haven’t tried it yet.


#1486

Yeah, what I said above is in reference to using a muscle system, I should have made that more obvious. However you could fake the effect of sliding skin with blend shapes too, though I have not really tried this… hmmmm, does anybody if soft modification works on a live surface, cause if it does then creating sliding skin with blend shapes woud be much easier!

in regard to what Laa-Yosh said “first the loops should still follow the general contours of the body… and the secondary guideline should be the direction that the skin travels in”

The thing is with this is that there are only two directions that the topology can flow, and skin slides in more directions than what you can build in the topology. Whats wrong with skin that slides horizontally to the direction of topology?

How would you suggest the topology should flow on the back?


#1487

To all the helpful people who have given me advice on my previous models - is this one looking any better yet? Thanks for all your help, I think I’m getting the idea (slowly) :slight_smile:

Amy


#1488

Amy - Looking pretty clean. I think the flow of ur lines are pretty good, though the chin is a bit odd. The loop around the mouth is a bit too dominent at the chin and the actual chin itself is almost nonexistent.

Personally, I would post an image of ur mesh unsmoothed to better get a feel of ur flow. Too many line can be a bit distracting. :stuck_out_tongue:


-In regards to the “back topology issue”, I was wondering how dense the mesh might have to get if u were to use a muscle system underneath. To add all the different deformations would be pretty complex, so I definately don’t think a grid like mesh would work for the back. Not to say adding all the loops isn’t very dense, but some of the folds and detail might run contrary to ur flow. (not sure if this helped, or just added more to ur confusion…?)

Cheers


#1489

Skin-sliding may be a mis-nomer, since our skin never slides much more than 2 cm in any direction, and only in a few places - across the ribcage is one, when we raise our arms, and over the scapula when that moves around, and a few millimeters on the forehead. And that’s only on relatively skinny people - the fatter the person, the less skin-sliding will be visible. This sliding is VERY hard to spot though, and can be easily faked by traditional tools.

I think a better word is ‘dynamic topology’, for instance when different tendons are activated in the neck, forearm, hands and feet, and the back muscles as mentioned. This is problematic to plan for, and it would sure help to have a muscle simulation system - or at least a tendon simulation system - for these issues. The neck would be by far the highets priority for this treatment, since - for instance - the back of a sufficiently muscular person is very rarely shot in closeup and focus for the duration of a movement slow and specific enough to showcase dynamic topology. Movies like the Hulk, maybe, one or two scenes, but in such cases a specific model can be made just for that scene.

Darek, I think the mesh has to be very dense to respond like real skin to the subcutaneous stuff going on.

Amy that’s better, but now the sculpting has changed a little… is the nostril stretching too much?


#1490

Thanks for your comments guys :slight_smile:

Darek, I’ve changed the shape of the chin, but i’m not completely sure what you meant about the loop being too dominant here. Is there any chance you could explain a little more, please?

Stahlberg - the nose has changed shape since the last one, but it’s now closer to my reference images, so i’m ok with it. Did you mean that the stretching is a topology problem, or just a modelling issue?

Thanks for all your help, it is very much appreciated :slight_smile:


#1491

Hello I was wondering if you could have a look at my mesh and let me know what you think about the topology and the proportions


#1492

Did you mean that the stretching is a topology problem, or just a modelling issue?

No, just a modeling issue… I’m not sure, it might help to see the smoothed surface without wireframe, and the reference pic too?

Ednometry, your mesh is very good. Solid start, not too dense or too light… shape seems very good and realistic, at least the main contours (it’s hard to judge the shape unsmoothed and with wireframe). Topology, mostly good, but a few things I’m wondering about… the butt seems locally very light, maybe a couple more edges across it to better define it when the hip goes forward. And those very long narrow polygons on the legs, one above the knee, some others on the back of the leg… they may cause unwanted ridges to form.


#1493

would just like to say, that mr. stahlberg, you are an inspiration!
this is a model of mine imn doing for a project, and would like to know your opinion on how its going so far, i’ve pretty much done the head, but still working on the chest, shoulder and arms, and the character has still got a ways to go. this is my first human, character, and he’s gonna have a real lean body, so any direction would be great.


#1494

Amy - I think dominant might not have been the best word. What i meant was looking at ur topology around the mouth is contained in a loop and the shape of ur mesh follows the loop, not the loop following the shape of ur mesh.

Not sure if that makes sense. I don’t think you need to change that loop, just get it shaped more like a chin. (hope that doesn’t sound rude… :rolleyes: )


#1495

Allmost all models i build i have trouble with the sternocleidomastoid. What is a good flow for that muscle? Heres a picture of a head im working on but i feel i spend too much time worrying about the flow and i kinda get stuck. The flow should be made so it can move the neck and strain the muscle if he is angry or something.


#1496

Baker17, he looks good, topology okay, but those pecs seem to be sagging a bit much near the breastbone, especially with the arms up like that they’d be stretched a little tauter I guess.

SoulVector, I’d definitely pick the one on the left. The one on the right would seem very hard to get a proper tensed-tendon Blendshape out of.


#1497

Thanks for you input Steven. Ill start out with the left one and try to see if i can get proper deformations on him. Fortunatelly Alias has added the Substitute geometry function, that will be a timesaver.


#1498

Well, it’s been a long time since I was able to get back to body modeling, but I finally did, and here’s the next version of the same model I started this thread with. Not yet using Maya 7, but I’m looking forward to it; from what I’m guessing the variable edge-hardness will come in real handy for me here. :slight_smile:

edit:
this is 5000 polys, compare to my last version that was 3400:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=108412
Still light enough to have as many Blendshapes on the Proxy as I may wish. I’ll probably merge it with a head later


#1499

Darek - don’t worry, not rude at all :slight_smile: I thought that was what you meant, and amended accordingly.

Stahlberg - your latest is inspirational as usual. I made a stupid noobish mistake and don’t have the unsmoothed one any more (I’ll know better for next time) but here’s the latest model and a reference pic. Next I need to work on her lips a bit I think.


#1500

Really like the curvature of the waist and thighs, Steven. Your model has that feeling of a nice full-figured volumn all around.