attitude of animation master users

#1

I started to get into this program a while ago when I bought it at macworld last year in boston. I started to learn it by doing tutorials and going to their forums, but been too busy to get much into it. So I guess it was a waste of money since I’m not using it…but anyway this is not the point of this topic.

In the forums over there, most people seemed to act like “animation master is god, and all other 3d programs are the devil”. Hash didn’t allow the talk of other programs, and the users seemed to hate all programs but AM. Why is this? I think it’s extremely stupid. A lot of times people (like me) want to do something in one application and bring it into another. For example do some character animation in Motion Builder or some water effect in RealFlow then bring it into Maya. So why is Animation Master so negative against this?

#2

It’s hard to say why you got that impression. I know for a fact many AM users are also Maya or Canvas or whatever users. Heck, Victor Navone is a Pixar user :slight_smile: But he’s still using AM for his side project.

Certainly AM users drink the AM kool-aid - but I think that is because the app is well liked and respected. I know that certain “holy war” threads in the Hash forum are not tolerated, for sure - why should they be? Also, you aren’t going to get a lot of discussion on other apps in the Hash AM forum - after all, it’s the Hash AM forum, right?

The ‘hate’ talk you might see toward other apps is in fun most of the time - if and when you see it - which is not often. I don’t see it and I am on the forum every day.

So, there are plenty of people like you on the forum, if you took the time to find out. And if you need help with AM - that’s the place to go - even if you need help with AM in conjunction with some other app.

I would encourage you to use your AM - it’s the best character animation tool out there for the one man show, bar none. I’m immensely enjoying my experience with it.

#3

Some people, but not all, have that attitude. Can’t blame Hash themselves for not allowing lots of talk about other programs. After all, it is their forum, it’s listed in the rules, etc. I’ve been using the program, when I have time, since 1994 and I can remember the bad old days when major flame wars would break out on their AOL and CompuServe message boards about other programs, so that was another reason. They don’t super police mentioning other programs right now as long as people use restraint and watch how they word their posts. Some people just don’t know how to proof their own messages though for wrong meanings, accidental insults, but that goes on everywhere everyday with regular e-mails.

Right now, there’s a heavy anti-Poser bias there, but that exists here at CGTalk as well (note the recent uproar here over an excellent Vampirella model where Poser got mashed when someone suggested it was a Poser model, which it obviously wasn’t…it’s the artist, remember…). In reality, it should just be looked at as another tool, but some people never get it. You have the people who can’t afford anything but A:M and don’t want to hear about anything else, and then you have the people who think you should do everything in one program. I used to think that would be nice, but I gave up on it long ago as you can’t do everything in one program if you ever want to get something worthwhile done and I have limited time as well. Funny thing, the Poser, Carrera and Vue people understand that and are actually producing some good work.

The lack of social skills of some or the very vocal minority of users shouldn’t put you off what is a fine program that excels at animation. There are work arounds to get it to play nice with other programs, but if you approach it from the attitude of what it can do and plan for it, then you could get it to work for part of your pipeline, but not for everything, it isn’t designed for that. It should be noted, IMHO, there are zealots for every program out there…I’ve visited every forum it seems over the years and it seemed to be a pre-dominant attitude…I think it sometimes boils down to people justifying or rationalizing their purchase. I don’t mind cheerleading A:M, though, I do it myself. But I’m not blind to its limitations.

Pixelmech is correct as to what it’s generally like now (except for Poser, which doesn’t really make sense because Poser users would help increase the A:M user base dramatically and bring in more 3rd party support as Poser users actually spend money compared to the much smaller A:M universe who do spend money on 3rd party things.) With the advent of the new Vue 5 Infinite, some people are starting to wake up and realize what can be done if you just work out ideas for compositing the results of a couple programs instead of just trying to import/export models, etc. Those discussions have been restrained and have gone uncensored with no griping it seems on the Hash forum.

Kevin

#4

well that was just my experience. They also seem to like to delete any threads that has ANYTHING to do that’s negative with the program. I just made a topic over there about returning my copy (which I doubted they would allow anyway because it’s been so long) and it was deleted 5 minutes after. :banghead:

The hate talk I was seeing definitely did not feel like joking. Plus what’s up with needing the CD in the drive when running the program?! That’s so 1999!

#5

Wow I’m not seeing the 'tude over at AM forums. In fact I see OT threads with links to CGTalk challenges, and loads of chatter about other apps and integrating them with AM.

Also, a thread about returning your copy? WHy should there be a thread about it- what information exactly was it you wanted to share in public with others? Wouldn’t you think emailing Hash a more appropriate method of communication since, after all, you need some coordination on their part to get your money back?

#6

I agree, a thread about returning your product doesn’t really belong in the forums. I’d contact Hash directly. As for the CD issue - it may seem odd but its a security issue. And guess what, Hash doesn’t suffer from pirated software. So it works for them. Because they are a small company they need to be able to protect their product. Small price to pay for great software.

#7

A:M does suffer from piracy. its already possible to download v11.1 from various warez networks. and i even know of a lot of people that use the pirated version, so it is indeed a problem, ya just dont hear a lot of fussing about it…

#8

And you reported that right? And you aren’t supporting those “people you know” who are using it right?

And… I’m not suggesting this, but … YOU aren’t one of them - right!? :slight_smile:

Anyway, I’d seriously wonder how well they worked if you don’t have the disk from Hash. Furthermore even if that is the case - they suffer far less piracy than the other apps from what I hear. If I’m a business owner, that makes sense.

#9

hmmm, i’ve discussed exporting and importing from and to other apps many times at the hash forums, no prob, everyone seems cool about it. The simple fact is that many people become zealots of a certain program bc 3d soft is fairly expensive and they constantly need to reassure themselves that they made the right decision as they hear of the new features of another app. This is true of myself too, hwvr i haven’t found that people are particularly harsh at the forums. Regardless of my personal experience, I’m sorry if you got that impression while at the Hash Forums.

#10

I remember when that attitude was found in ALL specialist software forums. You have to remember also that if you allow discussion of other software on YOUR forum you are effectively allowing advertising. If the discussion is - “why is X-program better than my Y-program?” then you understand this and it gets stopped. If you ask, how do I integrate or export / import for my project you are more likely to get a warm response.

#11

Actually, hopefully when I get more time to learn and more money I may leave A:M

A:M is a good program, and I love it, but it does not work well with others.

Everyone else can import each others models and software.

I hate modeling in A:M, it is slow in comparison to other programs. The fastest poly modeller will descimated the fastest spline modeller.

What I do like about the program is the models are not super hefty in size. I wish all other programs were like that.

Poser is sucky at model size. Zbrush while fast at modelling, the size of the models are tremendous.

I wish A:M would create a psuedo hybrid modeller that gives you the feel of polygon or zbrush modelling while keeping the splines as a base.

This is something of a stubborn point in Animation Master. They will not touch polygons, and it will not work with others.

That is bad especially in collabs, where 1 person is using Lightwave, 1 using Maya, 1 using Cinema 4d, etc.

Guess what? In that collab they can all work amongst themselves, but if A:m is in the mix that sucker is left out. Good if your a 1 man show but if you want collabers forget about it.

That is the main problem I see with A:M.

I wish other programs were as easy to use and easy to animate with and as easy to rig with and as powerful and at the price.

I’m going to test out Infinite and A:M together and see if I can create a pipeline, if not I’m ditching and moving one to something else.

I love the little program that could, and I would love to stay loyal to the program I first learned and is easy to use and powerful!!! But yeah I want to work with others around the world and across the board.

#12

Guess what? In that collab they can all work amongst themselves, but if A:m is in the mix that sucker is left out. Good if your a 1 man show but if you want collabers forget about it.

Well what you’ve pointed out is exactly Hash’s marketing focus, “One person, one computer, animating on a kitchen table” or something like that. It is meant to be self-contained. Unless that marketing focus is changed you will remain frustrated.

I wish other programs were as easy to use and easy to animate with and as easy to rig with and as powerful and at the price.

This is a cake and eat it quote. Mind you, i’m not trying to be disrespectful at all, but i’ve gone through this same line of thinking and have wasted my share of time and effort trying to make A:M fit into a pipeline that it wasn’t meant to fit into. The way I understand it the Hash team isn’t tremendously interested in making A:M easier to import/export with. They’re more interested in making A:M as good and solid as it can be. I have been happier with the program since coming to this revelation.

Flog, maybe you’ll just have to use more than one program. A:M for your personal work and LW, Maya, whatever for your collab work. Although only you can make that call. Best of luck with however you go.

#13

Sounds like you have that “love/hate” thing going that AM is SO good at.

Points to consider -

I hate modeling in A:M, it is slow in comparison to other programs. The fastest poly modeller will descimated the fastest spline modeller.

Your viewpoint is subjective - someone who has never touched polys against someone brought up on them… AND you’ll start a flamewar with that…

Pipelines? my advice (for what little it’s worth) is that if you wish to collaborate while modelling or animating then good luck to you - if you collaborate at output level (finished animation going into AfterEffects or Premiere) then you should be relatively OK. As for zbrush file size - I haven’t tried zbrush (still) but I’d guess some of the filesize is down to the maps used for creating the bumps and texture effects. I will happily be created though. I haven’t done any CGI modelling for over a year now so am probably out of date.

#14

Darn it… take a year or so off and fall over Mr Hose-Dude when I get back! hey Horse! Hows things?

#15

Yeah I do have a love hate relationship with the program.

I mean I love using various programs due to speed. For example I hate to model, I can do it, but hate doing it.

Modelling in splines and poly’s I have done both. Knowing both equally well, I can turn out twice as much work in Poly’s than splines. Check out Zbrush, speed is awesome. Then you got Wings3d, Silo, Modo, etc. All faster!! It is not subjective, I’m sure we could start a race between modellers on differant systems.

Plus in modeling you can find a massive amount of Poly based models as props, props you can buy and not have to make yourself. SPEEEEEDDDDD!!

Then there are those great programs that do what they do great, such as VUE. With Vue I can have that tropical Island I have been looking for and VUE pretty much works with everything but A:M and vice versa.

A:M is a wonderful program. I wish I could just put it a lot easier in my pipeline

If I had the power of A:M (fur, cloth, animation, ease of use, model size)
The power of Zbrush organic modelling
The power of Vue for backgrounds

I would be all set. Love hate relationship indeed.

#16

Hey Flog, That’s why I’m big on compositing, like hoochoo… That’s the best way to get around all these problems, I think. Gives you flexibility, too, if you want to change some things. If your Vue renders turn out great, but the A:M animation timing is off, you can re-do the A:M timing and just re-render and re-composite. Rendering everything in Vue would make one very old as would rendering everything in A:M or another program. Have some poly objects?..Well, Vue will take those…no problem. A:M will import 3DS files as props if you don’t want to build everything. Do some more planning and you might have the best of all worlds. Set up some lighting schemes easily duplicated by all, get specifics worked out about camera angles, etc. and then collaborators could send you images with alpha channels and you can composite away. Might involve some compromising, but it seems like everything does.

I hope to have some time this weekend to try some things with A:M and Vue Infinite. Have you had a chance to try anything yet?

Kevin

#17

Why no poly’s…
Can’t see a good reason why…
Imagine the num of people that would adopt anim master into their pipeline if hey could model outside and gett i t into anim master for animation and then render …

#18

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