Attention - cg fraud


#1

Hi everyone,

I am writing to warn you that there are two guys trying to defraud us workers of CG.

They accept and approve your quote, then at about half of the project they will tell you, that they can’t pay what you established and approved before. This is the second time that they cheat me. They contact you, first one of them and then the second one, because they work together and they worked before for the same company, where one of them was the owner. They promise to respect the contract, but at half of the project, when they will have all the parts to complete it, with ridiculous and little credible excuses they try to pay you as little as possible.

At the moment this happened two times and the first time i was paied just for half project and i lost a big amount of money. To cheat you they change everytime the person that will contact you, so pay attention to them and their colleagues.

I have been always professional and they know that because everything is registered and stored.
All the products were published, approved and broadcasted on tv.

I know other peoples that worked with them with similar treatments and if they want will add their testimony to this post.

Really soon i’ll post name and surname of them, so that they are no longer fraud other people.
If you are contacted by them, ask for an upfront payment if it will be for just one sphere.
I hope that with this post I am the last person to have been cheated.

Thanks for the attention, hope cgtalk can pin this post as the first one


#2

There’s an old saying. “Fool me once? Shame on you. Fool me twice? Shame on me.”

You should’ve refused to do business with these people after having been burnt once. If you (somehow) convinced yourself to work with them despite that first bad dealing, you shouldn’t have started work without getting paid some major part (or all) of the money up front. That’s not even including the amount already owed.

Personally, I wouldn’t have done business with them. As far as I’m concerned, I give everybody a fair chance, but only one shot at screwing me over. Lie to me once, burn me once, and I have EVERY reason to believe that you’ll lie to me and burn me going forward.

I understand the point of warning people and asking them to proceed with caution on any business dealing. However, I have a few key points to make here.

  1. In any dispute, there are three sides: Yours. Mine. The Truth. You are asking us to treat your word as gospel. We can’t. We shouldn’t. Don’t get me wrong. You may be 100% right and these guys suck. However, they’re not here to defend themselves. As such, we only have part of the story. For all we know, they might tell a completely different tale that may not paint you in the best light. I don’t know you. I don’t know them. CG Talk isn’t the sort of venue for this business related dispute.

  2. You won’t solve your problem(s) here. You should really, if you’ve been legitimately damaged, take this to court and/or report them some organization like the Better Business Bureau. Explore your options and handle the problem through the appropriate channels.

  3. As much as you may like, do NOT name these parties here. Again, you might think that you’re doing something right in warning people. However, the pendulum can swing the other way and your “friendly warning” could well be perceived as libel in a court case. All these guys need to do is show the courts that you’ve got a grudge and are acting out with malicious intent. If they can prove that your claims are baseless and have damaged them, causing them to lose business, you could well lose far more money than the initial value of the contract. Handle this stuff in court or in private. Don’t attempt to try these guys in the court of public opinion. You might lose and hard.

  4. If you’re effectively giving them all of the pieces before getting paid then that’s on you. Your fault. That this happened not once, but twice is just overly trusting on your part. Sorry. No money? No honey. That’s my policy. In other words, you don’t just hand somebody the keys to your car without first getting the cash. Especially in a situation where trust is a major sticking point, final deliverables at the same point as final payment. Proofs at every major milestone. Payments at certain key goals. Just don’t hand over the keys to the kingdom without payment. With most people, you can deal on xx day terms. Guys like this? Money speaks volumes and says far more than idle promises. If they have a bad track record, you either deal with them differently or not at all.

IMO, it shouldn’t have taken you two bad encounters with them to learn this hard lesson. After the first time, you should’ve just taken them to court and refused to do business with them again. Sorry that it happened, but now you know better.

Again, don’t post their names. Your intentions may be good and you may be 100% in the right. However, for all we know, you’ve got a score to settle. In either case, you don’t want to open yourself up to litigation. Don’t do it. Explore all LEGAL channels. This is not the place, imo.


#3

Three decades ago I freelanced for Advertisement Agencies and there was this company that had a steady load of work. Always paid then suddenly after a big project they didn’t. So I contacted the main guy and he told me the company went belly up but his brother would do a restart through his contacts so I should be fine.

So I did a few jobs for his brother and the bill went up to 5000.- Dutch guilder. Contacted the guy, got evasive answers so already losing money on brother No. #1 I put a no-cure no-pay collecting agency on brother No.#2.

Sadly it appeared he too went belly up and banks etc. collected first so once again there was no money for me and I had again worked for zipp.

More then a year later brother No. #1 contacted me again. Told me he had a job for me. I gasped at the phone and told him he was still owning me money. “Yeah but,” he replied, “this way I’m going to pay you back.” And I had the idea he really had the idea this was going to work.

I just laughed, wished him good luck and hung up the phone.

That was just one of my ‘bloody noses’. Not one I repeated though. Still sh*t like this (can) happen(s).
My advice, see if you can put a collecting agency on them and if nothing comes out of it, chin up and move on. Yes, it sucks but you’re still in one piece, worst thing, you waisted your valuable time. Just don’t waste any more of it on them. And hopefully, you have learnt your lesson now.

As for naming and shaming, don’t do that, it will only get you into trouble.


#4

I honestly don’t know how it works in the Netherlands when a company tanks. However, here in the US, it’s possible for such companies to file for legal bankruptcy, which effectively provides them protection from collectors while they reorganize or shut down. If a similar sort of filing exists over there, you wouldn’t have gotten paid either way. However, if they weren’t protected in that manner, you probably still could’ve filed a suit against them even if the banks drained their accounts.

Were you over here, you could’ve gotten a judgement in court against them and could’ve gotten your money back based on their future earnings. Courts and debt collectors do it all of the time. The amount they owed to you was only $2,600 USD, which would preclude you from retaining a lawyer. However, filing the suit yourself would have been significantly cheaper. You would’ve come out on top anyway. More than that, if you could have proven that they defrauded you then you would not only have gotten compensatory damages to the tune of what you were owed, but also punitive damages to some statutory maximum. IOW, over here, a court could say, “Here’s what they owe you. We’re going to tack on an extra ‘x’ number of dollars to punish them and send a message.” That’s how it works over here though. Not sure about the Netherlands.

Oh, I get your anger. I’d probably have hung up the phone too. However, to those who wouldn’t have, here’s my advice.

  1. Get paid the previous balance first. Until that check clears, don’t even think about doing business with guys like this again. This is, at the very least, a good faith gesture and sign that they’re trying to do right by you. If they’re not willing to do that, walk away immediately. They’ll just see the word “sucker” printed on your forehead and try to use you again.
  2. Get everything in writing. Never work with a verbal contract. Sounds like common sense, but you’d be shocked how many people are still naive enough to do handshake deals.
  3. Again, in writing, demand a much larger portion of the final balance up front. It’s not that you don’t trust them, but… Okay. You don’t trust them. They’ve got to earn it back.
  4. Deliver proofs or whatever else they need to know that you’re doing the job, but make finals contingent on payment. Like I said, you can’t give them payment terms at this point. You got burnt once. If they want to rebuild that relationship and value your work, they’ll suck it up and swallow their pride. This is a case where they need you more than you them.

Look. I don’t want to come off as a jaded d***. It’s easy to think that all people who end up owing you money are jerks. You can see the manipulators and users coming from a mile away.

Sometimes, however, it just turns out that there are good people who are REALLY bad at business. Not everybody deserves a second chance. However, what if YOU were in the position of needing that do over? All I can say is, if you’re the type of person willing to give or ask for a second chance, do things right the second time around. Trust isn’t owed. It’s earned. If they (or you) aren’t willing to take extreme measures to earn it back, don’t even try. You can’t (re)start a relationship in bad faith or with misgivings.

They might well take 30% or more of what you’re owed. That’s a basic fee. If they somehow tack on other hidden fees, you might well just come back with far less than 50%. Most people throw out collection letters and ignore calls anyway. It’s a dead end on that front.

Again, he’s much better going down to his local court and filing a case against them. There’s probably a nominal fee that has to be paid up front, but it’s WAY less dealing with a collection agency or a lawyer. Taking these people to court comes with several benefits.

  1. You can compel them to answer your complaint and have your say. They can’t hang up on a judge or tear up the complaint.
  2. If they refuse to show up in court, you can have a default judgment ordered against them. Them not showing up in court is about the same as them not fighting the complaint and admitting fault. This happens all of the time in courts over here. People ignore the debt collectors, who then try to take them to court. They ignore the lawsuit as they would any other collection letter. The next thing you know, the state is taking money out of their paycheck or from their tax refunds.

Court is the best option, especially if the OP has tried to collect themselves. Hiring a collection agency is just asking somebody else to do what you already did before, but with pro stationary this time around. Court is, imo, the next logical option if they’re in the same country. (Another country than you? Good luck with that.)

One word if the OP wants to go to court: Evidence. You can never have too much of it.

  1. Provide the judge with a lengthy paper trail. Contracts. Text messages. E-mails. Whatever you can provide, especially if you have correspondence from them that acknowledges the debt.
  2. Provide proof of what has already been paid and what is still owed. Copies of checks. Bank statements. Any sort of receipts from Pay Pal, Venmo, or whatever. Collection letters.

Also, it wouldn’t hurt if, before going to court, you send another collection letter to them via some sort of certified mail with a return receipt. This way, they can’t argue that they never received your letter. This is something that you can track.

I look at it a different way. Sometimes, it IS just the principle and not about the money. Some of these debtors count on the fact that the cost of long term collection is more expensive than the money owed. They know that you’ll give up because it’s costing you more money than what they owe. Buying into this line of thinking is what allows them to do it to somebody else. It doesn’t matter if you owe me $10k or 10-cents. If I can’t get free money then you shouldn’t either. It’s not childish. It IS the principle. My time and hard work are worth something. Stiffing a contractor is not professional. I’m not keen on reinforcing negative behavior. It may cost me more than what’s owed to me, but sending a message is sometimes worth going that extra mile.