A question for the professionals : Mac or PC?


#21

well, this discussion kind of drifted away from the initial question, this isnt about the girlfriend anymore, we already stated that a PC is a very valid option for her … hell, i was the first one to say that :slight_smile:

the discussion landed on a path where you made out to be that mac WASNT a valid option and as a user of both systems i don’t see the difference between it, i even think it’s stupid that people use the term “a mac user” or “a pc user”, but if you have to clasify people i would say i’m a “pc user” because i only use mac for professional purposes, hell, i’ll use whatever they want me to use …

what i state isnt realy any discussionmaterial, it’s just fact, if you can’t get your head around it, then it’s no loss. I’m not a cg-guy who happens to edit every now and then (i’m not saying you are, hell, i don’t even know what/who you are). I’m an editor first at this point, which means that i’m neck deep in editing on a daily bases and i NEED to know how the nuts and bolts of it are, and i can’t help it that there are a lot of fcp’s and macs in the industry, that’s just the way it is, worldwide. And i just don’t get why you have to put up a front AGAINST mac, didnt you get enough candy as a kid ? i dunno, but arguments like that are just stupid and pointless.

the nice thing about editing films is that you don’t realy need all the technical mumbo jumbo (ok, you need your basics, that’s true), the biggest technical issue is getting your material on your drives on the app of your choise and the os of your choise and you can do it anywhere, hell, you can capture it in a compressed codec, put the rushes of an entire feature film on your laptop and go sit on the beaches at the bahamas or even … the philipines of all places (ok, finecutting will be hard with your crappy laptopspeakers and the sun in your screen, but hey, at least you’ll get a tan or something), simply because editing is NOT the same as CG, editing is about storytelling, not about getting your images technicaly correct and knowing your computer inside out, so the location where you’re based has very little to do with you as an editor, i know a lot of people that know shit about computers that make great edits.

bottom line … forget about what OS you want to use, think about what app you want to work with and build your computer accordingly. The initial post mentions she already has a pc, then fine, nothing wrong with that AT ALL … i repeat for the 3rd time or something PC’s are nice !!!
If you’re talking about how companies work, 80-85% of the companies use either fcp or avid. (don’t pin me down on these numbers). If you’re freelancing, it’s all up to you, but most freelancers are using one of those two programs as well, without saying that the alternatives are “bad” or anything, that’s just the way the world turns atm, the reason beeing that freelancers usualy are hired by those companies so they just master themselves in the apps that they use (and if that turns out to be premiere or anything, then they’ll just learn premiere). If you only want to edit films then you work in direct contact with the producer/director so then you don’t have to feel obligated to follow that path

don’t take these comments as a personal insult, i’m just stating facts :slight_smile:


#22

edit **funny…it took me a while to write this and while I did, TAGGER basically posted the same response as I did - only in a different context. edit

I think a distinction should be made between editorial work and VFX work.

There are a good many FCP systems out there doing offline editorial for film. This is undenyable. Certainly more FCP seats than PC's running Adobe Premier in this space.

For higher end editorial of cinematic films, tools such as Avid, Smoke and Fire are standard. While some Avids run on MAC, most run on Windows. Snoke and Fire are Linux-only (older systems run on IRIX only)

On the other hand, I would say (and this is not a scientifically based accounting) that at least 80% of all VFX work (this includes 3D & compositing pipelines) for cinematic release is done on PC's running windows (or to a much smaller degree, linux). Another 5% perhaps are done in Inferno or Flame. 

There are MAcs in the VFX space. And improvements in MAC performance in the past few years have allowed more MACs to handle this type of work. Obviously, there a several high end apps that will run on both OSX or Windows. I am simply stating the fact that there are far more Windows PC than MACs doing VFX for film.

Bottom line AFAIC:

If you want to be an editor, it would probably behove you to learn FCP and Avid (on either Windows or MAC).

If you want to be in VFX, pick a few tools and learn them on whatever platform they run on.

It's not a question of which is "better". It's a matter of picking the right tools for what you want to do.

#23

…I humbly apologize for my harsh words. My experience has been different, but as you stated I come from a VFX background and not an editing background, and my limited use of FCP has made it pretty clear to me that it’s nothing like Maya. Tagger, please continue putting me in my place, I can take a personal critique as well as an artistic (if you’d consider my work as “art”, which I rarely do!) one.

And when all is said and done, we all end up crunching our video down for horrible “television” sets anyway, or even worse thanks to YouTube and such.

Let’s all be friends, opinions don’t mean we’re opponents and I hope I didn’t make any of you feel that way here.


#24

My experience limited? I highly contest that. Were a small country with few big studios, who got the quantels, the infernos, the flames, u know the words. And yes you do not mean to be an elitist, you are one. But, like what i was stating before for saiato, if his gf was starting off, what would be the best path for her? i gave my 2cents. Mind you, im a windows user myself. Im only stating, that based on my little experience on a tiny place in the world, fcp is THE norm from big to the smaller than the smallest studios here. Only broadcast stations here centers on avid.

And look, Tagger, velk and boxxlabs are stating the same thing. I guess i know more than a little about the industry dont i? My experience may not be so limited. I guess when we say “standard” it meant no matter where you are. Though, i think that may still be debatable.

Anyway, i was agreeing to the first posters before me so kudos is the wrong term, wrong grammar hehehe.

your email must have worked because they did that a couple of weeks ago :wink:
WHAT! Dang, damn bosses:twisted:.

And how come my country is listed here? Dang, misconfiguration on my account. Man im really shitty with computers :smiley: Oh well, ill just enjoy the beach and sun (its bora baby!)

PS: its an open question, if windows based, do you custom build your editing workstation or just get configured branded ones?


#25

…apologized for being a jerk. Don’t make me regret doing so, and don’t become one yourself.

As for workstations, it is always cheaper to build and configure your own, period. But sometimes specialized companies like Boxxtech or ArtVPS do a better job, especially in the case of the RenderServers which are delightful for highly specialized mental ray rendering, or in the case of the Apexx units from Boxxtech which are amazing too.

You get what you pay for, unless of course it’s a Mac, and then you get 1/8th of what you paid for! (grins)

That’s just for fun, people. Grin, and laugh at the egotistical dragon guy from afar!


#26

A late addition to this thread…

You can add Framestore-CFC to that list. Because the good folks over here were “foolhardy” enough to make the entire painting and texturing department Mac based. I’m sure they’d enjoy your suggestion that they’re simply suckers for a marketing campaign. And I’m sure there are many other studios that can be added to the list - I’m just mentioning FSCFC because I’m currently employed here.

And my professional, educated opinion still stands,

Professional and educated? A more apt description would be “personally biased without any real basis in reality”. For a self-proclaimed “professional” you certainly don’t seem to know very much about this industry at all.

and here is my justification: she already uses Windows-based PC’s. Which puts her far above (in intelligence) than a Mac user, who struggles with basic functions like turning off or on the computer, working with multiple mouse buttons, etc.

Pretty rich coming from someone who claims to “not tolerate personal attacks” - the lame apology you posted later in the thread simply doesn’t make up for this preposterous, and ultimately childish claim, which truly invalidates your contributions to this thread since it does little more than present you as an immature, bigoted fool (or perhaps I should simply state that it was the final nail in the coffin after your other arrogant and utterly misguided posts). You’ve pretty much managed to blindly insult every person who has chosen to use a platform that you simply dislike, for whatever personal reasons you have. Because frankly, you’ve not really made any cogent, truly objective post in this thread.

I especially enjoyed your mention of the multiple mouse buttons - it just goes to show how out of touch with reality you actually are. It never ceases to amaze me how software/platform fanboys can go around spewing absolutely clueless hatred, without realising that they’re making fools of themselves. Next time, try to do some research so as to avoid looking like a total cretin.


#27

Hi Saiato,

first of all, sorry to see your thread having collapsed into chaos thanks to pretentious jerks like Lordstormdragon. A quick glance at his gallery can tell you his “background in VFX” would be rudimentary at best and his opinions therefore shouldn’t be weighed to heavily.

Now… here’s as unbiased an opinion as I can give you… :smiley:

As Leigh already pointed out, here at Framestore 95% of the texture and matte painting departments are using Macs with the odd PC running Linux on the side. In addition to this, there is an increasing number of Mac workstations being installed in other departments as well. This includes all of our Avid suites, where they are used for running FCP. The amount of MacBooks, MacBook Pros, iMacs and Mac Pros my collegues at FSCFC are buying personally has grown exponentially since Apple’s switch to Intel processors. I’ve mentioned in other threads that it’s mostly glowing Apple logo’s with just the odd ThinkPad or Dell scattered about here or there. When I started here 10 years ago it was a very different picture.
The reason for this is simply the convenience of running just about every OS under the sun. With OSX for many turning out to be the jewel in the crown.

It always makes me chuckle when people state that using Macs limits one’s choice of software tremendously where as in fact Mac users nowadays have the greatest choice of all, being able to multi-boot into any world of software they prefer.

In light of this I would recommend your girlfriend to consider the still increasing market share of Final Cut in VFX and Macs in general (Mac sales are currently growing at a rate of three and a half times that of regular PC sales, despite the economic downturn). And wether or not the route she is about to take would leave her at a disadvantage if she is not capable of running OSX only software on her PC.
At the very least I would advise her to find a way of seriously trying out a Mac for a few weeks. Borrow one from a friend, or visit an Apple Store and attend their classes on Pro software. That way she can find out for herself if she likes OSX and Final Cut.

Hope this helps you out! :slight_smile:

ps… well said Leigh!


#28

I can’t believe I missed this hilarious tidbit earlier. Seriously, get clued up, then share your “educated” opinion.

Just… wow.


#29

Meanwhile, keep watching your iPod commercials and Mac vs. PC Applebates to acquire all pertinent information.

I’m too busy playing with my new Apple, which never crashes and has no viruses, bugs, or errors, ever. Who needs a RMB or MMB, anyway?

I really didn’t mean to degenerate this thread with my opinion, but alas there are so many “fanboy” types who simply like Macs because they look cool and have zippy, dancy commercials, while knowing nothing about what’s going on under the hood and doing no research whatsoever into the hardware involved.

I’m not saying that you folks fall into that class. I’m mostly sticking up for my platform-of-choice, and if I’m a bit ruthless about it then I’ll try to tone that down and stick to simple graphs and pie-charts to express myself. I anticipate that you’ll delete all this nonsense anyway, or perhaps ban me for having an opinion differing from yours after you went out and attacked me yourself, but sometimes that’s the way the cookie crumbles. If it didn’t crumble, it wouldn’t be a cookie! Unless it was like, Chewy Chips Ahoy, which aren’t very crumbly of course…

Or perhaps I’m wrong about that too. Maybe I should go purchase some Chewy Chips Ahoy before making such a statement? Don’t want the Chocolate Chip Cookie Fanboys lashing out at me, now do I…

“If you’re not laughin’, then you’re no fun.”
- George W. Bush


#30

now leigh is talking :smiley: the discussions are getting pretty hot


#31

funny how you keep talking about “people using macs that don’t have knowledge of the hardware” while you don’t even know that macs do have multibuttoned mice :slight_smile:

and if it’ll make you feel better, i sure as hell made macs crash.

buying a mac based on the “design” alone or whatever is stupid. but it’s even more stupid to judge a computer because of it’s fan base. Because that’s what it is, a computer, a worktool that helps you make content one way or the other, and the only question to ask is “will it get the job done”, because the topic of this thread is all about “will x or y get the job done” as a professional app (for editing film in this case).

you’re turning it into something it’s not, this isn’t your personal forum to proove that people who buy macs are … whatever. because you’re at the same level as the people you seem to label as “mac fans”, you’re just on the other side of the fence, so again, get your head out of your ass and start thinking as a professional, PLEASE


#32

Okay, apparently you missed your cue here (I gave a hint earlier but somehow it slipped under your radar - perhaps all those cookie crumbs obscured your display). I use a three button mouse with my Macs. Most people do. Sorry to shatter your illusion of reality here, but someone had to do it sooner or later. After using PCs for about 20 years, I really just couldn’t switch to a one button mouse, so I opted to stick with familiar convention.

I really didn’t mean to degenerate this thread with my opinion, but alas there are so many “fanboy” types who simply like Macs because they look cool and have zippy, dancy commercials, while knowing nothing about what’s going on under the hood and doing no research whatsoever into the hardware involved.

I’m curious as to how is this worse than a fanboy of another platform making laughably false statements without doing any research whatsoever into the hardware he’s taking a dig at? How can you knock something that you clearly know absolutely nothing about? Now I hope you’re sitting down, because this may come as a shock to you, but for the last few years, Macs have had almost exactly the same hardware inside them as PCs. I know, I know, this is quite a paradigm shift for you at this time. But hold on, there’s more - and you may want to have some sugar water with your cookies to wash this one down: Macs even have Intel chips in them, just like PCs. Isn’t that amazing? I am sure you may be in such a state of shock now that you may need counselling, but don’t worry, I am sure that in time, and with the right medication and treatment, you’ll recover.

All you’re really doing is making yourself look like more and more of a cretin. Perhaps you’re just a sucker for punishment, but you’ve been caught out, and frankly outclassed. So have the good grace to bow out and save us all the pain of watching you embarrass yourself even further. That’s my professional, educated advice to you.


#33

So after having “some” sense knocked into you by the more knowledgable people in this thread you’re down to the childish act of mockery through image posting (and quoting Bush of all people :surprised)? While in the same post claiming you don’t want to degenerate this thread with your opinion? Do you even think twice about just what it is you post?

And where do you see the Mac fanboys in this thread? I read over all posts again and I count eleven people giving neutral and decently expressed opinions and one individual (that would be you!) spewing vitriol against Macs and anybody who points out your (many) inaccuracies. Is that, as say you say, ‘sticking up for your platform-of-choice’?
Nobody here mentioned anything bad about “your” platform. What’s there to stick up for? Classic case of defense through offensive I suppose… (There’s a Bush quote for you).

So all in all, well done chap! You’ve done a wonderful job of self-indoctrination and self-humiliation. Or was it the poisonous fumes wafting over from downtown Redmond?

ps… I don’t think Leigh will ever allow you or your posts to be deleted/banned. Why deprive people the comic relief of watching you make a complete ass out of yourself? :smiley:


#34

i personally cant wait till the performance of macs is a tiny bit better on the 3d side. if i boot into windows, i get about double the performance on the same machine. apple likes underclocking its hardware to make machines run quieter, and drain less power. i personally want every ounce of power that my machine can squeeze out.

anyway the reason i say this is because when working with references, textures, models, or anything, the multiple applications that you can use to tag, organize your material for really quick access later is something that just isnt found on the windows side.

i dont ever have to complete typing a word and ill get results in the search bar. thats something that is soo overlooked by many people. i want to load in a wood texture, start typing, find the image im looking for and just drag drop into the application. no need to ever use heavy resource applications like bridge.

same thing goes for reference images or links that i might have to artists works.

theres nothing on windows that i found to be close to as useful as applications like “together” or “mac journal”.

the performance and availability of software in windows is undeniable though :/.

thats why its good to have both :smiley:

even if i dont use my mac to do most of the work, if any sometimes, i use it as a companion machine where i load up references, use it as my music player, do all my email through ( again, searching in mail kicks ass ), manage calendar data, journal information i need, keep my personal photography organized, etc. considering that i have a wireless network in my macbook pro i can easily grab stuff off the windows machine, so it never really miss the functionality of one when i get move data around easily. plus a lot of these applications are connected, which makes it really easy to share data between applications. thats one downside to most applications in the windows world. most applications seem to live in their own world. a lot of walls exist in the windows environment. doing things like accessing my aperture library from within the mail application is useful at times. it makes sure that i dont need to open up aperture, save out any images, so i then can use inside mail. i just go right for the images. same with address book. it shows all my contacts, and smart contacts folders so i can mail anyone within a given company quickly. yet, they are separate applications. they just share databases, which rocks.

id love for windows to kick ass in this aspect as well. ( i haven’t bothered with vista so im not sure how its improved, but considering they never got their journaled file system in place, i dont think its anywhere as good as the one in osx just yet ). that and the fact that windows gets bogged down big time when registry gets big. its just not a problem on osx. so keeping your personal data, and references, etc makes sense on mac. you wont be formatting very often, if at all.

another thing that is nice on osx is how shortcuts that you add to the sidebar of finder exist in all applications. so moving around the hard drive is soo fast. i cant remember how many times ive asked developers to add simple ways to bookmark locations within their applications for windows so i can access my local and network drives for any given job faster. its always a pain in the butt as some houses have really deep networks.

so while some users keep fighting over applications, i think there should be a lot more to consider in the grand scheme of things


#35

Indeed, I am aware of all the technical and hardware aspects of the Mac PC. I know it can run a multi-button mouse, and the newer ones have a multi-sensing mouse button which performs multiple tasks. I was aware of Intel hardware being used in them before Apple was, for that matter. I am not blind to any of these aspects.

But considering the nature of Apple’s marketing campaign of misinformation, slander, lies, and general fallacy, I found it amusing to try their technique. And it works. That may be the only thing Apples does right!

Making fun of toy computers IS fun. Watching you all get riled up over it is just as much fun. It’s all about comedy, my friends. I know it hurts to be outwitted and outsmarted, and I know sarcasm is a difficult language to learn…

But on a serious note, in response to Ambient Whisper, I’ve never had any problem doing all of the things you’ve listed on my Windows machines. It’s just like in the Mac vs. PC commercial, when the movie-star kid claims that cameras hook up easily to USB on a Mac, but that PC’s can’t do that. Autcomplete works on Windows, Ambient Whisper. In fact, the only thing Macs/Apple has done that is remotely original is the newer magnetic power-plug on the MacBooks. Of course, Apple stole that from someone else too, but it does work well and should be standard on all laptops, methinks.

It’s ridiculous. And therefore, should be ridiculed!


#36

auto complete isnt the same as typing a word and the search automatically updating itself based on your letters that you entered.

searching in windows is a long process/routine that just gets stupid slow on a pc that has lots of files in it… on osx its near instant. the difference is absolutely huge in both design and implementation.

it seems like you havent tried it before. i suggest you go to a futureshop/best buy or whatever, open up the finder application and in the upper right corner start to type some letters.


#37

My best friend is a Mac-fan, and he has a MacBook Pro… I’ll give it a shot, just so I can be objective next time.


#38

<insert image of frantic back-peddling here>

It took you two days and that’s the best response you can come up with? The old “oh haha, I was just joking” routine? yawn Go crawl back under your rock.

Although, the comment about After Effects and Premiere being used on almost every production ever was so funny that I could believe that to be a joke.


#39

The two days is how long it took for his message to reach the CGTalk servers all the way down from that huge pit he’s dug for himself. Electronic signals can only travel so fast. Then again, he’s got a PC!! It defies the laws of nature and in it electricity travels 8 times faster than light. :smiley:

You are indeed entertainment LadStormDragon. The ‘C’ in your CG Artist label stands for Comedian. Please keep going. :beer:

AmbientWhisper, that’s a lot of slow down you seem to be experiencing (twice as slow). Can’t say I’ve seen it that bad myself.
Anyway, I agree with you on the togetherness of applications in OSX.

A really cool feature of OSX is the drag and drop interactivity between cocoa applications. For instance being able to drag an image from the Safari web browser directly into PhotoShop (no need to save/load or copy/paste). Or selecting some text and dragging it onto the desktop gives you a richtextfile document with the clipping in there.
Or Automater and it’s ability to string the functionality of applications together in an easily executable macro. I could go on… the list is long… Awesome stuff.


#40

…so don’t give up now! A few more recruits, maybe a dozen, and combined you may approach some semblance of potency. I can help you guys, it’s pretty basic so just leave the fear behind and relax.

First, take one apple in your hand. Say it with me aloud, “One.” Good! You’re halfway there. Math is fun! Now, take an apple in your other hand. Now say aloud, “Two.”

See? That’s called counting. Note that one and one doesn’t make five, nor three, but two. It’s much simpler than it seems, but evidently they don’t teach such high level functions in other nations. I don’t like living in America one bit, but at least here you can assume that anyone you meet can already count to two. Note that I used apples in my lesson, to help your minds familiarize themselves with the heavy math. It’s because I love you that I am so selfless and patient.

Other things they teach here: sarcasm, wit, cleverness, the thirst for knowledge, desire to better oneself instead of wallow in mediocrity, and most importantly, The Art of Debate.

I know it hurts to lose a debate and look foolish in front of other people, but I assure you both that healing is possible. You can recover from this spiritual and moral blow. Being wrong, unprofessional, and entirely unoriginal are all states that you can improve, given time. Nobody is expecting miracles from Mac fanboys, especially not your boss. He knows these things take a lifetime to accomplish.

Although, the comment about After Effects and Premiere being used on almost every production ever was so funny that I could believe that to be a joke.

You already said that, and it was numbingly weak the first time too. Repetition doesn’t make a joke any more funny, or an insult any more potent.

It took you two days and that’s the best response you can come up with? The old “oh haha, I was just joking” routine? yawn Go crawl back under your rock

It took you eight hours to type that? Seriously? Who says that anymore? It’s 2008, not 1978, kiddo.

<insert image of frantic back-peddling here>

They don’t let you post images on a Mac? Oh, come on… THAT is farfetched.

You are indeed entertainment LadStormDragon. The ‘C’ in your CG Artist label stands for Comedian. Please keep going.

Jealousy and insecurity aren’t exactly marks of distinction (in my country, anyway) Loner, but keep trying and I’m certain you’ll find work soon. I suggest perhaps making an online portfolio, or a demo reel, or maybe just do some artwork to develop your skills. Be patient with yourself, it’ll come to you!

I thank you kindly, both, for your very professional opinions. Defeat always feels horrible, especially in a public forum, but nobody will hold it against you. We’re all friends here!