It is not hard at all, Kursad, but people coming from other packages (and that is all packages, except for LW) are used to having things organized as objects (which you can group, merge, clone, instance, etc…). It just seems more logical. The issue of being in component mode isn’t really that big in Modo. There are so many fast ways to switch to component mode that it wouldn’t bother me at all (you can use spacebar, keys 1, 2, 3…, pie menus ,etc…).
i understand, i was trying to explain why modo has choosen that way, becuase it is letting you be in component mode. for example i personally like to pull and push around alot of vertices edges around alot.in maya i cannot get in to that mode right away. i need to select and goto component mode, (i am not big fan of pie menus, mainly shortcuts i use). in modo you can use any tool in any mode. but in no way i am saying that modo does not need some improvement. i thought about a 4th mode which is object mode as well.
but thnx for making a mockup, that explains the idea very well
i personally prefer space key to go between vert edge and poly, and would like to select object mode through another key. but that is just me, i am sure when they implement such thing we can find some ways to work for ourselves
i personally use wacom tablet for modelling, and my second key on my wacom pen is programmed for “double” click. so when i need to select and object i just use that button. maybe luxology can include more mapping styles that would answer to different needs
and there are alot of work arounds in modo, that is the thing i was trying to explain, it is not as rigid as max or maya in that sense.it may not be exactly like maya when you configure, but would be close enough to give sympathy, but for example in maya , there is no way in hell you can create a lw style enviroment.
i am sure lux guys will adress some concerns of users of certain packages more in the future. but that will happen only when big amounts of people from certain packages complaint about certain thing naturally
i understand them, but currently i do not think that modo is going to turn 180 degrees and go other way.
i hate to say this.( well not really) but i think mirai dealt with this issue perfectly. because it let you be in component mode all the time unless you chose object mode for when you need to organize objects. so you can work on multiple objects’ components without any problems. or apply smooth to objects. or applying operations for optimizing/cleaning, etc.etc.
actually to me it doesnt feel like im in component mode all the time in modo for some reason. mainly because of the fact that i have to keep going through the many speed bumps on the way ( dropping tools/ initializing them/ etc )
oo. another thing i would like to see fixed is, when you have orbit selected. because when you deselect the viewport goes kinda bonkers. it would be nice if modo was smart enough to remember the last selected element so i could keep my aimpoint, without having anything selected. ( sometimes afterall i just want to see my model without selections
i personally think that that would be the best way to go currently
the question is not which is better but why there are not both available in a modeler that is supposed to be luring people from multiple apps and making them learn something very counter-intuitive. The question is not which is more efficient but instead how bad do you want business from studios not curruntly using LW. Its about accessability not…ideology
if it is any help…maya has a default marking menu mapped to alt+q for going into the different component modes. I found that the fastest for me because it is gestural …you dont need RMB or the Fkeys.
Lux was kind enough to put the same pie menu into Modo…now if only there was easy way to create/modify/edit those menus?
I really miss the simplicity of Lightwave’s “Statistics” panel. It was simple. I find the new one too much and harder to read/find information I want. Could there be a way to have a “classic” statisics panel?
You can from the Form editor. Their are other threads that should cover this.
yeah. i made a few of my own pie menus. one for creating primitives, and 2 others. its fairly straight forward after you do it once.
Let me get two things out of my chest:
1. About the object based system. I have to fully agree with spacemunky, ariel and juanjgon. I believe the target was to appeal to modellers from all apps, and it seems only LW users have a positive point of view in this matter. On the other hand, I agree with some of the things that have been said in defence of the current Modo’s layer system. Like for example, when the scene is very crowded its better to have a modeller that helps u get things organized in layers for selecting little objects or hard to reach objects. Yet adressing only layers is BIG FLAW since its not natural to Maya, Max, Xsi and many other apps. Im not comparing but only making a point. For the record I learned both lightwave and maya at the same time in college. So I’ve had a fair amount of use in both. I eventually changed to Maya over the simplest things like these.
Someone please listen to this guy!!!
If someone has this on script then it would be the most useful improvement produced by user to users. If not Lux should be really paying more attention to this thread. I know for fact of two big studios not willing to make the change for stuff like this. And I know my production house won’t either if this kind of bugs are not given fast solutions. Of course that is just the opinnion of those studios and my production house, but still it should be worth something.
Anyway, I’ve had trouble with the other tool issues mentioned here. But the object based is the most awful. About the aut-center of tool manipulators its good and bad. I think it should be a customizable option and not an obligation to use either.
2. I find the viewport mouse navigation somewhat slower and more emmm… “dumb” compared to Maya/Max/Xsi, and more based on how LW was. Again I thought the goal was to appeal the biggest the mass of modellers. And really does anyone have percents of how many modellers use Maya/Max/Xsi vrs LW systems. Please dont take this offensively. Before LW users and mods jump on me, what I mean to say is that if perhaps not change the default at least make it an option for the majority of modellers to change to what we know. On the other hand perhaps only I am bothered with this viewport mouse navigation issue xpecially on the perspective view. And please dont tell me that I have some buttons at the top of the screen to fix this cause its damn slow to move ur mouse up there just to move around a bit.
This is just my humble opinnion on this. Feel free to correct me if what I say is pure garbage and if you make a nice point then I’ll be happy to eat my words!
So, all the layers would always be shown, then in object mode clicking on a mesh would make that layer FG and all the other BG? That would the equivlant to maya where you click on the object then go into component mode.
Well the default mouse mapping is designed to eliminate the chording of the mouse. Personally I find this much easier on my fingers/wrists. I’m assuming you’ve mapped the mouse to Maya mode and turned off trackball rotation. How is it still bad?
I dont really understand if this is a question or a comment? sorry lol
Anyways I think yeah… it would really improve Modos workflow to be able to click on an object and be directed to that layer. I know that some LW wont agree with this but most of the Maya/Max/Xsi community will. I would advice a way to turn this option on/off if this is not to difficult it could really mean a lot for Modo in workflow and speed (and of course convince more studios using Maya, Max and XSI to change to modo (including my production house))
Yes I have the navigation mapped to maya but about that trackball I cant really tell. The problem is on the perspective view when you try to turn the model on simple y (or x or z) axis its very clumsy and offen goes out of control. Maybe this trackball thing could be the solution, maybe. Can you point me to it? Its really hard to explain unless you have tried Maya or its alikes. Maya moves faster this way… very simple. Plus I have a quick question how do u focus on something for example rotating on the perspective view i would like to focus the center of my rotation to an object not necessarily on the center of the modo universe? I dont know if Im explaining this well enough but if u understand what im talkin about, could any of you perhaps give me a solution?
Plus call me stupid, but is there an index search for the user guides? I really dont have the time to look at everything… thanx
I think that’s a good idea - it would save some time. Something along those lines at least. I do think it’s important to have some kind of object mode. I’m not really sure how Modo and the future modules will interact if Modo doesn’t understand Objects. I would hate to see another division like it is in LW - that would be a crying shame. Maybe they’re still implementing it.
This may be the best short term solution.
[QUOTE=Griffon]So, all the layers would always be shown, then in object mode clicking on a mesh would make that layer FG and all the other BG? That would the equivlant to maya where you click on the object then go into component mode.
You should see two “pill” drop down menus in your perspective VP. Click on the right one and turn off trackball rotation. To rotate around a selection, you can turn on Orbit Selected, but that only works with trackball…
In my previous life I was a Maya TD and tools programmer. I personally prefer the freedom of the trackball, but that’s why we have options .
Internally each layer is its own mesh object. It’s really a matter of how they’re displayed. We’re looking at some options.
i use most of the tools out there including maya and lightwave. and i yet defend the way things done in modo most of the time. but that would be my personal choice. for example if luxology wants to put “history” as in maya, i would camp in front of luxology and protest them
for example modo lets you open multiple files at ones beside layers or you can use morphmaps as straight modelling tool. i am not sure how many sofware out there can do such thing (i know lightwave does ). that is why i do not understand why people compare modo to silo for example.
meanwhile, instancing is a must have i believe. but lets be hopeful, at least if you guys think creatively , you can see that you can use “morph targets” as an instancing tool, which would even let you modify individual instances (without loosing instancing) which other tools cannot do. it is just matter of showing all morph targets at ones.
i think that users need to stop asking same options from other programs , instead they can try to see what modo is really offering. and you cannot do that based on couple of days of use of modo. i know i am saying this in every forum, but it is true. seems like bitching stopped magnificiently recently
i personally am interested in getting bugs out some speed improvement and couple of must have additions and tablet-mouse mappings and pressure sensitivity. Because modo lets you find creative solutions without alot of technical digging.
i feel like some people are asking many many options without thinking that fi those stuff would make a software more complicated or not. I think modo is trying to simplfy stuff rather then complicate the matter. and there is a delicate balance between advance and complicated, and i believe modo stops somewhere on the line. maybe not perfectly on it but close enough to make me think that modo is a simple but advance tool
That’s encouraging. It’s a great program btw - with all the excitement comes the inevitable feature requests. So sometimes it’s easy to forget to compliment the software. Works great in combination with Maya.
While I’m typing I might as well throw in a concept of my own (in regards to the upcoming renderer). I’m not sure if the platform can handle this - but it sure would be interesting to open up Maya in one of the viewports - and select objects, adjust UV’s, assign materials, test render, and save out the scene for rendering w/ the upcoming renderer. There’s a number of 3rd party renderers for Maya now - but their Achille’s heel is the cost per node. Lux. could jump in here if they have a killer renderer, an easy means of using it (working with Maya inside a Lux viewport), and an inexpensive cost per node ($100/node anyone?).
Ok, time to come back to reality…
Here are a few tips for adjusting to modeling in a pure sub-object/layer modeling system like Modo or LW, environment modeling included.
- Use Parts. When saving an OBJ to Max for example from Modo, all labeled parts become individual objects. I recommend utilizing an underscore system such as: Object_Element in naming your parts. You can quickly reselect your specific object elements through the statistics panel and after export, parts make for quick grouping in your program of choice.
- Have some very basic approach to handling layers. I usually utilize some layers for the final object or environment, where all finished elements are pasted into. Other layers are used for reference pieces and scrap I may need to reuse, and the bulk of layers for whatever I’m modeling at that given point. Leaving blank layers to seperate these different sets or naming/organizing layers provides a solid management solution.
- To define entire objects you can assign polygonal selection sets. Your sub-objects can still be accessed as parts, materials as materials and temp vertex and edge selection sets are also handled seperately.
- Consolidate the layer(s) that represent the final object(s) or scene. However for your development object, do not over consolidate. If you have a variety of objects in an environment, paste items according to easy selection with your lasso tool in the same layer.
So for an entire room you could use two or three layers containing all your finished objects, another layer or two for the room itself. This way you can still quickly manipulate a specific object just by grabbing all its polys rather than using the selection menus. Then continue editing it immediately or cut and paste to another layer for further focused fine detail tweaking.
When you’re ready for final export, save it as a differently titled file as you’ll most likely need to flatten all the layers. Exporting to Max via OBJ for example, requires your object or environment to be in one layer. As most LW users are aware, if the objects are static and don’t require lighting exclusions in Layout, you’ll generally gain greater efficiency and faster rendering by using less layers for Layout, avoiding mass object parsing and management issues.
It’s a very fluid system, I prefer it to Max or Maya.
Just the way things need to be programmed it seems like everything would be an object just because it will be in a container. Calling it a layer or an object it is still a container.
I like Ambiant-whispers layout of all the objects and their existing vertext maps, but that layout should just be a form that I can put together from various data objects. It also makes the interface follow the work flow in the modeling. I don’t need a vmap window if there are no vmaps, same as edge selection mode hides vertex tools.
The layers as objects as was mentioned is also a great idea. in object mode selecting a part of a model will bring it to the foreground. There should be also a way to hide a layer/object the same way. maybe hit the hide tool hide an object in object mode
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