Which university is best suited to lead one to a career in visual effects?

#11

Hi everyone,

I’m a Senior Lecturer at Bournemouth, mainly looking after the Masters courses, but have taught on the BA. I hope I can help here.

Just to clarify - we do have three courses at Undergraduate level - BA CAA (Computer Animation Arts), BA CVA (Computer Visualisation Arts) and BSc SDAGE (Software Development for Animation, Games and Effects). I know it may seem odd to have a test on the open day; but it is actually to benefit the student as much as the interviewer. We ask all the students to sit a Maths, Logic and life drawing tests - this allows us and yourself to discuss your options during the interview; it allows you to make an informed decision about the course you have applied for. Think of the courses as follows - CAA is the artist role (animation, modelling, texturing, lighting, look dev, compositing, rigging, some python scripting etc), CVA is the technical artist and technical director - the glue of the team (animation, modelling, texturing, lighting, look dev, compositing, rigging, python scripting, c++, shader writing, plugin and tool creation etc) and SDAGE is the software developer – so they create animation tools, shaders, fluid simulators, pipeline tools, game engines, c++, python, graphic libraries etc). These three areas form all of the required departments within a games or film company (not going to include admin, accountants, production coordinators etc). CVA sits in the middle, with art, maths and programming being delivered within the course. CAA is has less maths and programming, concentrating on design and art. SDAGE at the other extreme has less art and more maths, programming and tool development.

The NCCA has been around for 26 years, at its heart are two philosophies - the marriage of arts and science, and science in the service of the arts. All students (including the arts stream) will do maths and scripting; the course you chose will dictate the intensity of the delivered technical subjects. The same is true of art, all students are taught art theory, art history, cinematography, the Moving Image, Design and Aesthetics – however the intensity will depend on whether you picked a course biased towards the arts (or not in the case of SDAGE). This means that artists can speak to software developers, and software developers to artists. It’s about creating a collaborative space for students to work together. Our maths, scripting and programming delivery are taught in a manner that is artist friendly - I think we do a pretty good job of it, so you shouldn’t be so worried. Its about teaching life long skills, hopefully allowing you to be direct your career through a very competitive industry.

Finally, just because you may have struggled with maths does not preclude you from applying to the courses or even enrolling. The tests on the interview day are to help inform you of your available choices, and whether you have chosen the right course. Some students choose CVA prior to arriving for the interview, however the test identifies that they are better suited to the CAA. The same can be true the other way round.

I hope that makes sense. What I want to make clear is that the NCCA runs arts courses as well as technical courses. There is a video of our work from the past 18 years in my signature, take a peek – it will demonstrate both technical and artistic skills. We have one of the best graduate list out there, many have been direct Oscar and Bafta winners or worked on projects that have been. They are also owners of studios (Blue Zoo), Supervisors, senior level employees all the way to junior grads.

Let me know if you have any further questions. :slight_smile:

#12

Hello thanks for your reply about the Bournemouth course, i have applied for computer animation arts (i have a real interest in becoming a character artist but also interested in gaining a well rounded skill in cg). My dilemma is this, i am applying to second year (once my program director sends me my reference). You mentioned you have taught on the BA, i am wanting to apply for second year with a background at university in photography (i am currently in year 2 studying photography). My photography has given me a good understanding of lighting, composition and human form, however in order to catch up i have been studying maya and i am enrolled unto escape studios for 3d foundation in maya from the 11th of may2015. I have also enrolled in scott eaton’s anatomy for the artist course and plan to do his digital sculpting after. I am also planning to enrol in some scuplting or life drawing classes this summer. I also have acquired a few books(which intend to study over the next 7months). My question is do you think i have a chance of getting into second year? Here is a link to my current photography portfolio http://adelagunphotography.tumblr.com/ Thanks :slight_smile:
Books:
Figure Drawing: Design and InventionHampton, Michael

Alive Character Design: For Games, Animation and Film: For Games, Animation & Film by Haitao Su

Photoshop for 3D Artists: Volume 1 by 3ds total,

Anatomy for the Artist by Simblet, Sarah

Color and Light: A Guide for the Realist Painter by James Gurney

Digital Modeling Vaughan, William

Light for Visual Artists: Understanding & Using Light in Art & Design Richard Yot

Artist’s Complete Guide to Facial Expression, The
Gary Faigin

Imaginative Realism: How to Paint What Doesn’t Exist
Gurney, James

The Digital Matte Painting Handbook Mattingly, David B.

#13

Bear in mind, alot of the comments you’ve seen have been from bournemouth lecturers so their opinion will be biased, so maybe it’s worth hearing out other options as well before making your choice.

Definitely consider hertfordshire as your choice for studying VFX / animation. I’m just about to graduate from there at the moment and i can safely say it’s one of the best courses in the world (voted no.03 in the world with Vancouver Film School / Gnomon coming 1st / 2nd with bournemouth coming close to last on the list).

Not to bad-mouth bournemouth (i think they’re definitely one of the top Uni’s in the UK), but after having spoken to around 10 students last year at FMX in germany every one of them said that if they were given the chance to start university again they’d all switch to hertfordshire without thinking twice.

Obviously i would be quite biased towards herts, but we are stronger for the artistic side of things (VFX-wise / animation, 2d and 3d) however bournemouth are probably stronger with technical things.

At the end of the day, university doesnt really matter as its all down to the student, you get out what you put in!

Check out hert’s showreel to see for your self: https://vimeo.com/102407330

Here’s my work with things done whilst at uni and over my summer in 2nd year (i went to the mill). www.joshuathornhill.co.uk

UH has graduates in alot of companies in soho (MPC, Dneg, Bluezoo, The Mill, Framestore to name a few etc).

Take from this what you will, but i’d definitely consider UH as a strong choice, maybe even get yourself a ticket to this years film day at our Uni (around the end of May) :slight_smile:

#14

One person in this thread is a lecturer at Bournemouth, not “a lot”.

Furthermore, we’ve had problems before with Herts staff registering on this site, pretending to be students promoting the university. It doesn’t exactly paint a great picture of the place when your lecturers have to lie to promote the course. It also makes me suspicious of anyone registering an account here and immediately jumping into threads to promote the course too. Do a search for “Hertfordshire” in this forum and you’ll see the threads, because they’re still there.

My comments about Bournemouth aren’t biased, they’re based on my experience of having worked in Soho for almost a decade.

(voted no.03 in the world with Vancouver Film School / Gnomon coming 1st / 2nd with bournemouth coming close to last on the list)

Voted where, exactly? Was this an actual poll somewhere, or just your personal opinion?

but after having spoken to around 10 students last year at FMX in germany every one of them said that if they were given the chance to start university again they’d all switch to hertfordshire without thinking twice.

Anecdotes like this really just cast your entire post into doubt. Honestly, it’s hard to take anyone seriously when they make claims like this.

#15

Thats fair enough, i’m not trying to cause problems here. I have the utmost respect for bournemouth they do produce fantastic work.

I was hinting more to do with Saf’s (Bournemouths Senior Lecturer) comment which seems to be promoting Bournemouths course (Which is confusing as the thread you made in the forum that’s stickied states how no ones allowed to promote courses in any way).

You opinion is as equally valid as mine i was just stating to Ayo that he should definitely consider other places before settling, and coming from Hertfordshire and having looked at Bournemouth i was just giving my own opinion.

I don’t see how it casts my post into doubt, but that’s fine i don’t want to offend anyone.

As for the voting poll of courses, it was no.3 last year for the CG Student awards however the list is gone as the new CG Student awards are starting in the next few days so again that can be seen as an irrelevant comment now.

Anyway, Ayo i’d suggest going to interviews from all your choices (including bournemouth) and making the choice for yourself. I can only give my own opinion. :slight_smile:

#16

We don’t allow representatives from schools to start threads promoting courses. They are, however, free to answer questions related to their school; in this case, Saf was addressing the concern about the maths requirement.

I don’t see how it casts my post into doubt, but that’s fine i don’t want to offend anyone.

I just think it’s unnecessary to make comments like “I talked to ten students and all of them wished they’d gone to Herts”. I mean no offence, but I just find that very hard to believe. Not only because Herts is not, to be totally frank, a particularly big player in the industry (yes, there are some graduates working around town, but not nearly in the numbers of universities like Teeside and Bournemouth), but also because I just find it hard to believe that an event, every student you talked to had exactly the same opinion about a school (and I’d have the same view regardless of what school it was). And when people make comments that are hard to believe, it kinda makes everything they’ve said hard to believe too.

As for the voting poll of courses, it was no.3 last year for the CG Student awards however the list is gone as the new CG Student awards are starting in the next few days so again that can be seen as an irrelevant comment now.

Considering my past experiences with staff from this uni here on this site, I’d honestly not trust their placement in any poll, since it’s been proven that at least one individual from there has no problem registering multiple false identity accounts online to promote the university. Polls can be manipulated by people like that. I’m not saying that definitely happened, but more illustrating that this is a case of the boy who cried wolf; due to what happened here in the past, I personally will never trust anything that anybody from that university says. I was appalled by the outright dishonesty of it, and as I said before, in my view it casts the entire course in a bad light if staff have to lie to promote it.

#17

due to what happened here in the past, I personally will never trust anything that anybody from that university says.

Excuse me? As a senior representitive of such a major CG website, you have a distinct responsibility to uphold higher values than that.

You just painted an entire university (and thus; it’s alumni and current students) based on the actions of a single individual. How can you justify that as anything other than utterly bigoted?

Ayo - I too would highly recommend University of Hertfordshire as an option. There are many great unis in the UK (Bournemouth comes to mind), so be sure to get involved and investigate them all.

Proudly,
Benjamin Salmon - UH Alumni.

#18

Hi Leigh

It’s Mark Wallman. I have just reregistered to reply.

As discussed many times now. The lecturer who posed as a student did so way before my time at the Uni. At that time I was still in the big smoke. Saying “I personally will never trust anything that anybody from that university says”, I hope you are not including everybody when you say “anybody” as this was before my time. (I was not running the VFX degree at this time)

Getting into a who’s right and who’s wrong is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. If I was a student I would like to go to open days in all the uni’s. My advise would be to go to all of them and go with the one that feels the right fit.

Best regards

Mark

#19

My posts are not representative of this site; please refer to my signature. I speak as an individual. As I said, the threads are there for all to see, and after repeated dishonesty from the staff member(s), this is a case of the boy who cried wolf.

I don’t see how you’re now bringing alumni and students into this, when I spoke very specifically about the staff. But if you want to put words in my mouth and make yourself a victim as a result of that, then that’s your choice. I’m not here to argue.

#20

And yet, I’ve pointed out before myself, your LinkedIn suggests you were there at the time. This happened in January 2011 (the threads are still viewable on this site if you want to check). You’ve been at the university since October 2010.

At that time I was still in the big smoke. Saying “I personally will never trust anything that anybody from that university says”, I hope you are not including everybody when you say “anybody” as this was before my time. (I was not running the VFX degree at this time)

I think it’s quite clear that I am talking about staff there. I also feel compelled to bring this up as dishonesty leaves a very, very bad impression, and I feel it’s appropriate to bring people’s attention to it. Would you not feel compelled to warn someone too if you’d experienced dishonesty from an organisation? I find it hard to believe that anyone wouldn’t feel the same.

#21

I personally will never trust anything that anybody from that university says

casts the entire course in a bad light

I spoke very specifically about the staff

put words in my mouth and make yourself a victim

…

Have an issues with the actions of an individual in 2011 is your prerogative, but the several hundred (+) students, alumni and the other staff members who were not involved would really appreciate it if you directed your vendetta in a less general direction.

The University I proudly graduated from last September was nothing short of brilliant. The level of teaching, and the student attitude was far far better than my previous university.

#22

You’re going out of your way to take what I said out of context. It’s very clear in all my posts that the issue is with the staff, as I’ve repeatedly said that it was staff members that lied. Like I said, if you want to twist what I’ve said, then that’s your choice. If someone had a bad experience with, say, a coffee shop staff member and then said “I’d never trust anyone from that store”, it would be very clear they were talking about the staff and not including the customers in that statement. They don’t have to explicitly add a disclaimer saying they’re not talking about the customers.

To describe my views as a vendetta is just silly. A vendetta implies malice; I think dishonesty is a very serious issue. If you want to keep arguing, then kindly direct your arguments to my inbox. Thanks.

#23

I do not believe it is possible to take ‘entire course’ out of context.

Coffee shop customers are not represented, or representative of the coffee shop - students and alumni are.

It seems we will have to agree to disagree.

#24

By “entire course” I’m talking about the curriculum and people involved in running it. The word course to me means an education offering; it does not mean student body. Again, this is about context, which you’re going out of your way to pretend doesn’t exist, evident by the fact that you’re choosing to omit the rest of the sentence in that case, which makes my meaning very clear.

Why would any reasonable person damn students for the actions of the uni’s staff? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I don’t see how you can say that customers in a shop are different to students with regards to their relationship to the university; I’ve never considered students as representatives of their school. I certainly don’t regard myself as representative of the schools I attended.

Like I said, if you want to keep arguing about this, let’s please take this to PM instead of derailing this thread further. I’ve already sent you a PM. Thanks…

#25

Hell yeah lets move that nonsense “discussion for the dictionary” out of this thread. This is certainly not what OP wanted.

I mean, wow you guys are at it as if youd have to study for the rest of your life… Thats not the case, what uni you go to is not the most important thing in the world. In fact I classify it as rather not important at all.

But that might be just my story:

I went to a rather small 4semester course in Berlin Germany that doesnt even exist anymore… it was there for only about 3 and a half years then it was put down because of … well I dont know, it just did very bad. (Film & Animation at Games Academy).
If I can be honest here I didnt learn a lot over there, the staff and teachers were super nice persons, but most of them did lack the international standard worth of production experience. The artistic side was ok, but not very intense in terms of lesson quantity and expectations. The technical side was barely even there. And most of the time we (the students) have been given the feeling that we are COSTING the academy money - so a bad feeling if you know what I mean :wink:
So whats my point? Well even with those handicaps I managed to graduate
and break straight into the industry (now lead character td at mpc)

So invest less energy and worries in what Uni is best, and put more energy into increasing your expertise on your own and making a nice portfolio regardless of your uni. The most important thing the uni can offer you are contacts to get into the industry - and even that can be aquired without them (i.e. fmx recruitment - thats where I got my job).

Its not the uni that gets you into the industry, its you.
Im not saying “dont go to uni its not worth it” im just saying, that literally “any uni in the filed will be alright to get into the industry”.
So go to the open days, and then just choose the one you feel best about in general.

-S

#26

This is absolutely true, and a great point to make. Having said that, I do think that the specific course you choose is nevertheless important. Why? Well, simply because with the high cost of education these days, I think it’s only fair that people get value for their money if they choose to go the university or college route. And because there are a lot of courses out there that aren’t really all that great, it’s important, I think, for prospective students to speak with current students and graduates to get an idea of what available courses are like. So purely from a value point of view, I think it’s pretty important for folks to research available options to make a good choice.

But yeah, when it comes to actually finding work, nobody gives a hoot where you studied. In fact, most studios don’t even care if you even studied at all. Your reel gets you jobs, not details in your CV.

#27

If I was a student I would like to go to open days in all the uni’s. My advise would be to go to all of them and go with the one that feels the right fit.

Good advice Mark.

I was not running the VFX degree at this time

Do you have any online documentation you can link or can you share more detail about the specific course you are running, if you still are? Thanks.

#28

Hi Yes.

It might be a better idea if you email just in case I am advertising on cgtalk.

here is my mail address.

m.wallman@herts.ac.uk

regards

Mark

#29

Well, you should be ok, considering this:

We don’t allow representatives from schools to start threads promoting courses. They are, however, free to answer questions related to their school.

I asked a question… :thumbsup:

Send me a PM with the link or detail you want to provide when you get time. Thanks.

#30

Hi all,

Wow - I was offline for a few days and it seems to have exploded in here :slight_smile: First of, thank Leigh for supporting my comments - I was in no way starting a post regarding the NCCA courses at Bournemouth, I was responding to some questions and general confusion regarding the courses here at the NCCA, specifically with regards to the logic, maths and art tests that our UG courses use. It was a very simple reply. I’ve also noticed people contributing a lot of misinformation regarding our courses - i.e. we only run technical courses. These are untrue and I wanted to clarify this point - I hope I did.

Regarding snowed12 (Josh Thornhill) comments - if you’re going to write a comment in an open forum that states 10 student at FMX were unhappy about Bournemouth, you had better be able to provide some proof, not anecdotal evidence or throw-away comments. Only 15 students attended the festival last year many of them love the course, you seem to have spoken to 2/3rds of them - thats a pretty good hit rate. Sorry - but I just don’t believe it. I was at FMX last year (I have been for last two years). I’m there this year as well. The students who attended are bright individuals, many of who are in their final year - I know many of them (a third of them competed in BFX)- I doubt they spoke to you in that manner. Maybe they were upset with workload, they have quite a lot of work come May time, as well as exams. Everyone has a whinge!. Anyway - the NCCA reputation isn’t going to hang on a few students comments (which I doubt they made) or a forum post; I’m happy to point to our graduates success and industry collaboration - its pretty simple.

As Mark mentioned, go and see the universities open days, ask questions and make it clear you want to see the graduates trajectory, their exit velocity. Being employed as a junior is great - but how long does it take you to become a mid, senior or supervisor? As applicants you need to ask questions that are pertinent to you careers.

Just to be clear as well - fanboi students need to get a bit of perspective - its not Uni vs Uni out there. We are not PC vs Mac, Xbox vs Sony - this a very shallow view of the educational system in the UK. I happen to work with a lot of Universities around the country (I run the BFX Competition and festival - not an advert!! Don’t ban me :slight_smile: ) which sees me collaborate with staff and students at all universities. Over the summer we had students from Hertfordshire, Ravensbourne, Kingston, South Wales, Portsmouth, Bournemouth and Lincoln (and a few more) and they were a joy to work with. Bright students who were taught well and hungry to do well in the industry. Maybe University Executive teams want you to think its a cut throat business out there; but most academics see the value in working together to provide the best opportunities for their students - regardless of geographic location. Bournemouth has huge leverage with its industry contacts - thats not a lie or promotion - its fact. We’ve been here a long time. But at the same time we share that resource with others because it makes sense to - better graduates, means better work, means the creative industries grow, which means more jobs and therefore more demand for better education - the bar raises. Of course there is competition between university courses - but in a good way.

Just to come back full circle; my response in the forum was to help clarify a number of question people had regarding the entry requirements for the Bournemouth courses and the test. If you don’t want academics or tutors to respond, then you may get a very weird imbalance here - effectively these forums become a fanboi site of misinformation and flaming, which is in no ones interest.

snowed12 (Josh Thornhill) Said “Obviously i would be quite biased towards herts, but we are stronger for the artistic side of things (VFX-wise / animation, 2d and 3d) however bournemouth are probably stronger with technical things)”,

Comments such as these make little sense when you consider the many Bournemouth graduates in senior art team roles in Soho, around the UK and worldwide.

Hope that helps.