Where is everybody


#1

I use to post a thread in these forum a few years ago and I would get several responses with the first day.
Haven’t been here for a while but I posted a few threads a few weeks ago and I am not getting any answers, are people here migrating towards other forums?


#2

Facebook unfortunately. However, everything is cyclical. Many security concerns are running people from facebook, but facebook groups being exclusive will keep a lot of people there for longer since those represent guarded enclaves for some. Ultimately, some combination of open platforms to display work for everyone and closed and closed “pods” for people to build cliques or businesses in will pull people away from facebook.


#3

But FB doesn’t have forums?
For example where are all the users who normally post in “Maya/Animation”?


#4

I’d assumed there were dedicated groups for popular apps, but I wouldn’t think they would be a complete substitute for general news. I think we’re in a period of relative stability where people are pretty committed to the apps they use and are probably spending more time in program-specific forums and groups. There’s not so many “which app should I use” threads, for example. Still, where else do people go to learn about brand new programs and technology? Then again, in reccnt months I’ve discovered several neat new tools that I’ve seen little or no mention of here. There definitely seems to be a bit less interest in smaller, more focused, apps now. I have to assume that’s because their functionality can usually be recreated in the more mature full-featured programs. There also may not be as many people using 4-5 different programs in their workflow as was very common just a few years ago.


#5

I’m not sure that I can lay all of the blame on social media. To fully understand why this CG Talk is so bereft of life, we need a little context. We need to go back in time a bit.

Imagine that you’re a CG artist and the year is 2007.

Along with the likes of GameArtisans, CGChat, and Polycount, CG Talk is just one of a large number of highly popular art communities. Driven by a string of prize laden contests, these sites become the place to be if you’re a hobbyist, a serious pro, or somewhere in-between. The traffic is such that moderators and members alike can’t keep up with the endless stream of new posts and threads. Even the quieter moments were just crazy.

Now, imagine that the year is 2008 and the global recession is starting to rear its ugly head.

People lose their jobs. Studios close. Competitions become less of a priority as sponsorship dwindles and prizes become less grand. Sponsors, former and (then) current, have to prioritize their spending habits. This all results in less traffic for the big sites. For the smaller forums, usually run by two or three people with larger non-site concerns, just keeping the lights one becomes a chore. Every time the site goes down for a day or two, it bleeds membership. People stop coming back. The site gets just a little quieter each time until, eventually, all you hear is the endless ranting of trolls or spam bots.

The year is 2013 now. The world is starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. The world’s economies are getting back on their feet again. The ground beneath them is getting less shaky.

Imagine that you’re a big company and are looking for a way to promote your brand. You look to the global art community that once gave you so much exposure. What do you see? Many forum mainstays are struggling to remain relevant, closed forever, or living in a zombie like state of denial - refusing to die long after they were dead. You’re a big company? Are YOU going to sponsor a global art contest on these sites? Probably not. You might sponsor your own or just promote your brand another way.

Imagine that you’re an artist. If you haven’t starved to death, taken a non-CG job to pay the rent, or have managed to find renewed relevance, you’re not so concerned with these communities anymore. The global recession scared the crap out of you. You still make personal art in your spare time, but your priorities are much more in order. You’re getting back on your feet too.

You COULD choose to participate in the Facebook groups, but they’re mostly populated by obnoxious newbies who think that mastering the default cube somehow makes them Monet. No. If you’re one of the “old timers” from the pre-recession days, you’re looking for more serious exposure. You’re probably hanging out in CGHub. When that closes down, you’ll soon move to ArtStation.

Flash ahead to today, 2019.

Facebook has been around for 15 years now, since 2004. Some of the largest CG groups have been around since 2006. You would THINK that they’re populated with the best and brightest CG artists around. They’re not though. Some great artists DO hang out there, but the Facebook groups are largely populated with trolls, newbies, and wannabes.

If you’re a serious CG artist, you’re seemingly less concerned about community and more about gaining exposure. That’s doubly true if you survived the devastation caused by the recession just few years earlier. You’re hanging out on ArtStation.

Conceptually, forums still exist… somehow. HOWEVER, the one thing that once drove traffic and membership is long gone. Forums are no longer the host to these big global competitions. Face it. If you were a member back in those halcyon days, that was the real draw. Even if you didn’t care about the prizes, you lived for the thrill of competition. You lived in anticipation of the next wild brief. A few competitions still exist, but they’re noticeably smaller in scope. They’re rarely hosted by major sites - CG Talk included.

Where are all the members?

If you’re a serious CG artist, you’re probably on ArtStation showing off art you made for work or gasp for the love of actually creating art. If you ARE on a forum, you’re probably much more picky about what sites you visit. You’re not posting to every site. Maybe you choose to make something like Polycount your one community to stand beside ArtStation, your showcase. If a forum even remotely looks like a ghost town (eg. CG Talk), you may only post once every few weeks or months and mostly to write posts such as this. (You might find a hot topic that catches your eye now and again, but not as often as you used to.)

If you’re a newbie, dabbler, or modestly accomplished CG artist, you’re probably on Facebook mostly. You’ll run into a (legit) pro occasionally, but they’ll probably be far outnumbered by loudmouths, meme lords, or people with just enough knowledge to be annoying, but not truly insightful. Mostly, if you’re in a Facebook group, you’re going to run into people whose insights rarely go beyond the length of the average tweet.

I can tell you one thing, VERY few FBers are willing to make the most of that 8,000 character limit. If they have the ability to help, they’re probably not. Far too many people on Facebook posting from their phones while on the toilet. (Oh. It happens. LOL) If people are actually getting help on Facebook then it’s because they’re aggregating feedback from a large number of short posts.

IMO, I’d love for forums to actually make a comeback. It’s not likely though. Apart from the original draw of competitions (mostly) being a thing of the past, not a whole lot of GenZ artists (age 19 and below) want to take the time to read long drawn out posts. Forums are much too slow and passive for GenZers.

I don’t know if it’s a short attention span thing of if the internet age has bred them to demand instant gratification. However, if you’re a GenZer, you probably didn’t make it beyond the first paragraph of my diatribe before saying, “Hard pass.” :stuck_out_tongue:

Let me end my rant with one salient point.

A large majority (67%) of GenZers and a Millennials get their news primarily through Facebook posts. That’s a fact, sadly. It’s quick. It’s easy. It’s there. You can consume it in short bites. Most of the time, if this is how you get your news, you’re probably just reading the headline. Probably only a third of Millennials, and even fewer GenZers, actually read legitimate news sites, verify the stories, or sit through long articles.

Why is that worth mentioning? Unless you’re “of a certain age,” you’re probably not going to invest a whole lot of time on this stuff. CG forums are passe. CG forums are, imo, built for that minority 33%. That number is just going to shrink and shrink over time. If you’re in that growing majority, however, you’re going to want to get in and out as quickly as possible. Post & go. Hit & run.

I’m not saying that this is the start of the Idiocracy, but the (eventual) death of large CG forums might well be the death of truly valuable critiques and deep discussions.

Let me put it to you this way. Go to Facebook. Look for a post asking for some feedback. Post a critique that’s honest and critical, but also helpful and respectful. Go ahead. I’ll wait. You’ll be met with one of 3 major responses.

  1. Thanks for the input. That helps.
  2. TLDR
  3. Yeah, but… (They wanted praise, not help.)

Facebook is full of 2 & 3, but not a whole lot of 1. Again, lots of trolls, newbies, wannabes, and those seeking only attaboys. Even so-called “serious artists only” groups on Facebook are full of sh*. I tried going the FB route. I really, honestly did. It’s a joke. Unless you’re a masochist, avoid Facebook for your art community needs.

If you’re a serious CG artist, go with ArtStation and then pair it with a tightly focused forum with a small, but loyal membership. This is why Polycount has survived while others have shut down. PC stays in its lane and doesn’t step into ArtStation’s. For game artists, it’s complementary, not supplementary.

CG Talk? Hoping for a (real) comeback, but not expecting one for the reasons outlined above.


#6

Your post is pretty depressing I should say…
I’ve found Twitter has very pro 3D members, but usually very busy to answer questions if you don’t actually know them…
My alternative is google groups, they are great.


#7

Cookeepuss pretty much nailed it. But one important point is imho missing. One of the biggest needs, the tutorials and help, is covered by Youtube and Google nowadays.

You don’t visit forums anymore for help like in the good old days. At a forum it can happen that you wait days for a response. And in worst case you find trouble instead of help. That’s why i think that forums will never again be as big as they were in the 2000’s. In that time they were everything. From social media up to help center.

Reddit has a few places for artists. But i was never happy with Reddit …


#8

Maybe so, but only if you’re in dire need for help. In that respect, you can treat it like a tech support channel.

However, where social media fails is in the allowance and tolerance of in-depth critique. Let me give you an example. I was on some Facebook Blender group last week. This newbie wanted to know two things:

  1. I want make characters. Should I sculpt them or go with poly modeling?
  2. What do you think of this? (Showing his VERY FIRST attempt.)

I went into this whole spiel. I described the pros and cons of each method, why working with a mixed approach is best, and I showed him a short tutorial JPG outlining the creation of my first “ZBrush era” character model from 2002; I had been doing CG since `89 and character stuff since 96 though.

I also outlined for him why character modeling is an advanced topic and how the learning process is additive. I suggested that he build up the necessary vocabulary first. Get to know the fundamental concepts. Play with the core techniques. Start with a simple model first and then get progressively more complex with each new model. I told him that he’ll feel more confident after some time. Even if/when he ends up needing help, he’ll at least be prepared to rise to the challenge.

Moving to the model… It was a total mess, but I was really nice. I outlined problems in areas like the sternocleidomastoid, trapezius, and deltoids. I noted how certain proportions were off. I described how the face needed this, that, and such fixes. I also told him how to fix it and do better the next time around. I showed him how to use simple primitives and booleans to prototype and visualize a stronger base mesh.

I even directed him to a few of my favorite anatomy books - “Cyclopedia Anatomicae” and “Anatomy for 3D Artists.” I also then directed him to tutorials and videos for retopology, noting that it would be necessary later on for a cleaner mesh and better deformation/animation.

All in all, while the model was SUPER terrible, I was really nice and helpful. My post was long, but necessarily so since I wanted him to succeed - despite character work being WAY outside of his skill level at this point.

I got back 3 responses, one from the OP. They went something like this:

  1. Rando Poster #1… “TLDR. Nobody’s gonna read a fucking article.”
  2. Rando Poster #2… “Dude, I didn’t read everything because it was too long, but I hope that you’re there to help me when I need it. Oh, your first attempt is so much better than my 100th.”
  3. The OP… (this one’s good) … I was initially greeted with a kind of “duh… Wtf are you talking about?” (He didn’t understand a word of my critique or answer to his first question.) That was soon followed by a “You just don’t get it. That’s just my style.” That bit of self-denial was topped off with a friendly “You’re a smug asshole.” (Mind you, outside of my one and only post to the OP, I said nothing to earn that nice f.u.)

Spaces like Twitter are TERRIBLE for critiques. The format is just incompatible with detailed dissection and in-depth analysis. People either post for super quick answers or likes. Most of the time, unfortunately, people get told how good their work is when it’s just garbage. Twitter is, imo, not the best place for honest critiquing of art.

Facebook gives you a little more room to stretch your legs for offering critiques, but it’s populated by SO many newbies with delusions of grandeur. Most don’t want to read the critiques. Few are unable to process them, not having the core skills necessary to understand what you’re saying. Too many just want approval and not help, despite what they claim. Facebook has far too many people who value pandering over honesty. Thin skins and an inability to accept critical input.

When you do run into the occasional pro, sadly, they don’t stick around as long as you’d like. They try to help, but are met with the same responses I got. They post their own stuff for critiquing, but most of the other members are too green to help. They’re just met with glowing praise and GIFs of people bowing down to the master. An experienced eye would point out ways to make the work better, even if it’s just a staging or lighting issue. However, there just aren’t enough of those people there to give these pros the unbiased “fresh eyes” look that they need or want. So, they eventually move on and away from Facebook.

Reddit? Too much chatter. Like the old days of Compuserve and Google Groups. So much cross-talk and blather. OCCASIONALLY, you run into some good, helpful people. However, it’s a mess of a design just like the “good old days” of BBS. Inconsistent in the sort of people you run into.

Social media isn’t designed for crucial and critical analysis of art. The format and the user base just aren’t geared for that sort of thing.

As for Youtube… Mileage may vary. Lots of quick tutorials that can help you work out problems, learn new techniques, and even outline emerging concepts. However, not all YT feeds are made equal. There’s a lot of garbage out there. Some people just aren’t qualified to teach that stuff. Others might just teach you the worst possible way to do or fix something. There definitely ARE lots of good YT channels and videos. However, you have to sort through a mountain of coal to find that one diamond sometimes.


#9

You’re right. I wish that it weren’t that depressing, but that’s just what the situation is. At the very least, it’s my perspective on it.

My first experience with online CG communities goes all the way back to 1992, dial-up modems and BBS sites where you could download (tiny) files and chat via mailing lists. The sort of communication that you’d do back in those days was kinda like what you’d see on Google Groups or old Compuserve ones.

However, being the early 90s, these groups were mostly populated with people trying to figure out quicker ways to rasterize, raytrace, or whatever. There wasn’t a whole lot of talk about technique or apps, because neither were all that evolved back then. You couldn’t get critiques because… well… YOU try uploading or downloading an image on a 14.4k modem. :stuck_out_tongue: Plus, everything CG - no matter how bad - looked really good in 1992. Today’s newbie was 1992’s CG god.

Jumping ahead a few years to 1997, forums started to really become a thing. Before coming here to CG Talk, I was a member of its its predecessor - Planet3DArt. (IIRC, it was also founded by Leonard Teo.)

If my talk about the demise of forums sounds depressing to you, imagine how it sounds to me. I was there to witness them rise. I was there during the glory days. Now, I’m witnessing them die slowly and painfully. I might not be 100% right on the reasons why, but the evidence is all there.

Ultimately, I feel that forums are just like any other tech. They replace something older because they’re better. Unfortunately, eventually, they end up getting replaced themselves. It’s just a little harder to notice and accept with forums because they’ve had a 20-something year run. So many of us thought that they were going to always be around.

Honestly? At this point, I don’t feel as if forums have a true 1:1 replacement just yet. Social media does a part of the job. Portfolio sites do another. Maybe somebody might come along and reinvent what a forum should be and why one-stop destinations sites are still necessary. It just hasn’t happened yet though.

One more crucial reason why forums are failing and social media isn’t up to the task… COMPLEXITY.

In 2002, to make a good model, you really only needed 2 programs, your 3D app (eg. Maya) and your image editor (eg. Photoshop.) Everything was SO much simpler back then. Two programs and you basically could do everything you needed. The extent of your texturing work was limited to a simple image with color and everything else baked right in. 256x256 or 512x512 was your butter zone for that one texture too. Poly counts? With hardware being slower and less powerful, 2002’s high poly is 2019’s low poly. Complex simulations? Not unless you had access to a render farm or lots of time.

In short, CG was a way simpler hobby and occupation back in 2002. A relative newbie with only 6 months of experience could still give a lot of constructive input and contribute to the communities because of this. You could do more because you had to know less.

In 2019, it’s really hard to create a short pipeline that’s also robust. A skilled Blenderhead could do quite well with just Blender and Photoshop since Blender is a damn Swiss Army knife. However, there are so many task specific apps that they might instead opt for a “right app for the job” approach. Blender. ZBrush. Marvelous Designer. Photoshop. Rizom. Substance Painter. Photoshop. Marmoset. Akeytsu. AfterEffects. Blah blah blah… Without even trying, you can EASILY bloat your pipeline to and past 12 apps.

More than that, don’t think that you’re getting off easy with a single tiny texture sheet. Nope. You’ve got tons of texture sheets all for different channels and effects. You’ve got GLSL shaders. You’re working with 2K or 4K textures. You’re maybe working with UDIM. You have to worry about super complex rigs. You’re not just poly modeling. You’re sculpting. You’re retopo-ing. The entire vocabulary is much more complex. The number of techniques necessary, as a bare minimum, is astounding.

Just to be a generalist of average skill in 2019, you have to be operating on a whole other level. That means, if you’re a newbie, your point of entry to these forums is way different these days. You might lurk much longer before you have enough skill and confidence to post.

The sheer complexity of CG in 2019 is such that it’s almost too big for a general audience online community such as a forum. You either have to cater to the newbies or the pros. Sating the appetites of both at the same time is so much harder in the same venue. Unless you’ve got dedicated mentors, a pro is going to want to hang out with other pros since most newbies, while enthusiastic, will also be harder to deal with since they’ll likely be overwhelmed by the enormity of the state of the art in 2019.

I’m not saying that newbies shouldn’t try, fyi. I’m just saying that the gap between pro and newbie wasn’t nearly as wide in 2002. General audience forums worked best in simpler times. CG is so much more complicated in 2019 that there’s a large separation between pro and newbie.

I’m also not saying that newbies won’t get helped by pros or that pros are unwilling to help. That’s not true either. They don’t meet up as often as in 2002 simply because they don’t always speak the same language, as it were. This person is talking about the integration of an exothermic reaction calculation while the other person is just struggling to figure out how to calculate sales tax. :smiley:

Back in 2002, you could give a good critique in one or two short paragraphs. To adequately dissect a piece in 2019, you might need far more. You also have to hope that both people are on the same page. Otherwise, if you’re the pro, you’re going to be in the position of having to explain your actual critique and maybe even the underlying concepts. In 2002, you could basically say, “Read this pamphlet. Read it? You’re good to go. Now make some art.” CG n 2019 is so much more complex that, to discuss or critique anything properly, you have to block out a good portion of your free time. Not everybody can do that.

Again, CG forums worked better in the days where a simple JPG or animated GIF could answer every question that you had.

Just as DVD tutorials couldn’t keep up with the rapid evolution of the art, I think that forums and members have had as hard of a time staying on the same page. Tutorials found streaming and d/l as suitable replacements for DVD as a delivery mechanism. Forums haven’t found their replacement … not totally.

But I ramble… :wink:


#10

The general Maya forum is actually the most active here still, somebody just posted like 20 min. ago. Groups tend to blockade too much info off in the fb format. The other issue is that “The Great CG Exodus” that happened like 5-6 years ago didn’t just kill a lot of the studios, but it killed a lot of the schools and potential students interests in the field. Part of the decaying of the field I also hypothesize goes back to a topic I raised in a forum thread I posted not that long ago about undervaluing our work.


#11

You’re not wrong in that respect. Employers largely treat the talent like they’re disposable. They think that they can work you tirelessly, sometimes for up to 70+ hours a week, and pay you what amounts to slave wages. They work you until you break, physically or mentally. They care more about quick turnaround and that profit margin.

The “industry” breaks far too many good artists in short order. Nobody screams “union” for fear that they’ll get blacklisted. They just suck it up because they need the work. If they don’t do it, the companies will find somebody else who will - and for less money. I’ve seen a lot of good friends leave and never look back as a result.

I don’t think that it’s necessarily causing a decay of the field though. I do think, however, that we’re soon going to reach a tipping point. Change is on the horizon and big companies are not going to like it. That said, I think that the consumers are as to blame as the companies. They’re demanding bigger, better, and more exciting, but at the same price and in the same time frame. It’s not reasonable or realistic.

As for the Maya forum… Does that surprise you? CG Talk has organized itself in such a way as to prioritize ADSK and bury various other apps. I “get” that there are lots of ADSK users, but other apps have similarly large and active user bases. They just don’t congregate here. All told, however, far too few other sections on CG Talk show signs of life. Some sub-forums haven’t been posted to in years.

Moving on… The global recession DID kill a lot of schools and left potential students alone in the dark. However, I’m not necessarily sure that it killed their interest in the field. I think, as I said, the one thing dampening enthusiasm is the sheer scope of CG in 2019. We don’t even have to go back to 2002 as I first supposed. Just go back to 2010.

I think, if you really want to see why newbies and wannabe pros find the prospect of entering any corner of the industry daunting, look at the trade mags. I’ve got some old 3D World magazines from that period and, tbh, it all seems so delightfully quaint and even naive. If you’re a newbie looking to get ahead, the content covered now seems too advanced - even the most basic topics. If you’re at that starter level, magazines like 3D World and 3D Artist almost make the field seem impenetrable and art form far too esoteric. Niche even.

For this reason, I’m actually highly in favor of forums as a gateway for nurturing this sort of talent. Kind of like a community driven mentorship. The problem that we have right now is that too many of these newbie friendly communities are either run by newbies themselves or lack proper direction and moderation. Even when they have good admin/mod and a knowledgeable upper echelon of artists, the problem then becomes promotion, finance, and sustained momentum.

On a personal level… Having been a “face” presence and done behind the scenes work for a few notable CG forums in the past, for about 10 years, I would like to make use of that experience at some point. I honestly don’t have all of the pieces in place just yet, but I have had some strong ideas about how to “fix” the forum/community situation for a while now. I also have some ideas on how to replace competitions while simultaneously bringing back the excitement and motivation that used to come from them. I don’t think that we can go back to 2002 and how forums were then, but I think that there might be a way to make these communities relevant and exciting again. The scale of it is such that I won’t pull the trigger til all of my ducks are in a row though. I guess, maybe, that’s why I’m constantly so frustrated by (and bitch about) some of what I see on CG Talk and on the social sites.


#12

Good luck with that. But be prepared for even more frustration. People have changed. They are used to Twitter and Facebook now. And don’t have the years of patience anymore to realize that learning how to make art takes years. And why should they switch? At the usual places they get nothing but honey for what they do.

Just a small fraction is nowadays really interested in honest feedback that brings you forward. You already named the usual reactions from tl’dr up to go f*** yourself that’s my style. One wrong word in the critics to an image and they are gone forever. Which makes honest critics without getting personal really hard nowadays.


#13

As a sidenote, at the page where i am active at we used to be one of those pages with super honest feedback. Newbies gots scared away by that, they didn’t understand that it was not meant as offending. And the pros had learned enough at one point, they did not post their images anymore.

We then tried to go the other route. Not so tough feedback, more friendly. The end of the song is that most of the remaining pros has also left. Too kindergarten. And the newbies has left then too, since there was nobody with enough skills left to really help …


#14

You’re 100% right. The concept is not exactly a forum, but also not a quite portfolio or social site either. One of the reasons why I haven’t pulled the trigger yet, apart from time, really amounts to trying to get the necessary elements to play well with each other. It’s a different take, tbh.

You’ve got that right. ABSOLUTELY. One of my long standing complaints. “You have to say that my stuff is the best. Mommy said that I can do anything I put my mind to. Well, I thought about it real hard. It’s all I want. Give me my Maserati and a 100k CCO job where I can sit around all day watching TV and taking naps.” Entitled little… :stuck_out_tongue:

Yeah. You’re not telling me anything I don’t know. Why work hard for a trophy when they’ll just give you one for having a pulse? Participation trophies send a bad message. Failure and struggle are, imo, integral parts to success. They help you appreciate the wins and grow from the losses. Sadly, we live in a culture where all it takes to be famous is to have a big ass and a twitter account. If your phone’s camera is working and you can do a decent duck face while wearing a thong, you too can make money. Too many aspiring artists want that “Make Cool 3D” button that allows them to skip over their 10k+ hours. They think that it’s their god given right and that the universe owes them something. BLECH!!

Yep. That’s a huge reason why I hate FB. They get butthurt over a whole lot of nothing. “Throw me a parade or I’ll go cry in my Cheerios.” Every newbie sucks. The goal is just to suck less and less with each new project. You can’t do that if you’re too thin skinned. Suck it up, buttercup.

The problem here, beyond participation trophy culture, is the notion that far too few kids over the past 20-ish years have been taught the importance of personal responsibility and accountability. When something is screwy and it’s your fault, own it. It’s honestly not that hard. Apparently, however, it’s just way easier to shift blame or live in denial. (You see this happening with a lot of parents who would rather believe that everybody else other than their screwed up kid is at fault.)

That’s why when you critique somebody these days, they either turn tail - like you said - or they go with the outright, “You just don’t get me. That’s my style.” No. It’s not. You just suck. However, here’s how you can get better. Worry about style later. You have to first learn the rules before you can start breaking them.

Sadly, I get it. I went to a fancy prep school from grades 7-10. That PC culture where kids are treated like porcelain dolls is all too common. Not by the teachers, but the parents and surrounding support system. It’s only gotten WAY worse since I was kid though. And here’s the result… The idiocracy.


#15

And it doesn’t help when you try to use both approaches simultaneously, having a dedicated section for serious critiques in addition to the more “kid gloves” section. Welcome to 2019. Negative people need not apply.

There’s the overwhelming notion that you’re free to believe whatever you want… as long as it agrees with what I believe. We see this happen in politics all of the time. It doesn’t matter if you’re a liberal or a conservative. People preach the idea of open-mindedness, but really only want full agreement. You can critique my art, but only if the comments are all positive or stuff that I can ignore.

Culturally, as a human race, we’re kinda f-ed for this reason.

I always feel like a relic when I say, “Let’s agree to disagree.” Nobody does that anymore. If I don’t like your art, you’ll flame me and call me a turd or something. It doesn’t matter if I use the “compliment sandwich” technique to soften the blow. You believe that you have right to dismiss me because I disagree. Worse than that is when mob rule sets in. If I’m the lone voice of dissent… Heaven help me.

It’s funny how partisanship has eked its way into every facet our lives, including art. With you or against you. No in-between.

I used to be the first guy in the pool, trying to help out every newbie. I don’t claim to be a CG god or anything, but I do have enough experience that I feel that I have something to pass on. However, after so many arguments and far too sensitive types, I’ve become far more reserved and reluctant. I now see newbies and sometimes say to myself, “Sorry. You’re on your own. I don’t need the headaches.” I totally get it, unfortunately.


#16

Yeah i know that feeling too well. I am nowadays also super careful with what i respond ^^


#17

Well, now that I am “old enough” to have two kids, I feel I am constantly fighting against reality.

I always have to be the bad guy because I am educating my kids in oposite ways as the rest of the parents, and it’s very frustrating.

Something as easy as make your kid carry his own bag is normal for me, but then you see ALL the other parents carrying kids’ bags while the kids are eating some pastries for a snack.

That’s the WRONG way to educate!,

first make your kid understand that his bag is his OWN thing and NOBODY will carry it if he doesn’t.

And second, you will have dinner or whatever, when get home and you will eat it in the table, where we will seat and have a conversation about your day at school and what did you learn or did that day.

As a side note, I found a client in LA that hired me as a 3D modeler for 3D printing, and you know what he ask me IN FIRST PLACE?, I mean, before anything?

He asked me if I were a millenial. And if I was, he wouldn’t hire me.

Fortunately I am doing 3D work since '96, so I am not a millenial I think.

The thing is, “old” people simply won’t want any contact with millenials because their way to understand life and work.

The good point is…, there is less “serious” competition, at least in accidental side of the world. Asians, though, are SUPER motivated and do GREAT work for almost NOTHING, and you can’t fight with that. Hopefully they will understand how valuable is to have a car and a house and will start to rise their salaries in order to match ours, and then we will all be in serious competition.


#18

To be fair, that’s a bit of a cultural stereotype. I know a bunch of lazy Asians. :stuck_out_tongue: I’m 5th gen American of Puerto Rican descent, but I’ve got relatives who are Asian. … … … Not so industrious. LOL

As far as parenting goes… Yeah. Get your kids to be responsible, attentive, hard working, and so on. No being babysat by tablets or phones. Do your chores. If you want something, work for it. The world doesn’t owe you anything. ETC ETC ETC. It’s old school, but the alternative is… Yeah.

As far as being a millennial, it all depends on when you were born. 1980-1994 or 2000 is the range 2000-now is GenZ. I’m GenX, born in 1974. I think that it’s largely defined by the onset of computer and internet ages. GenZ is, imo, more worrisome than Millennials. Just watch the news or go online. Planet Earth, your f***ed. :smiley:


#19

Yeah, we are doomed with our young people. Even aristotle knew this already :smiley:

They [Young People] have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things – and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning – all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything – they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else.
(Aristotle)

There is hope. Just let them grow into our age :wink:


#20

I really meant asians actually doing 3D works. the ones that are pretty motivated and, in fact, great artists.

I didn’t mean youngsters are all bad boys or something like that, they are just learning the wrong way and I feel they will get a very big impact on their face the day they will go away from home and start a life project.

I was a 3D teacher for two years.

The first year was great, the course was aimed at unemployed people that needed a job and thought 3D could be a good one. It was great because all of them where super motivated, because their life depended on that. I had a guy that work all night long and came to class with no sleeping at all. Super inspiring to have people like them

The second year was TERRIBLE. It was aimed at millenials, teenagers that were always listening to you expecting you to explain everything and go home to try to do what was teached. But I wanted them to try things while I was in the class because I was there to help them. I wanted them to think for themselves because in 3D there are thousands of ways to do things, not a simple way or unique way. But no, they wanted to learn ONE way, and that’s impossible in art.

That’s my experience.

And I see how parents educate their kids and I KNOW it’s NOT going to get better.
It will only get better the day those kids grow up and see NOBODY is going to give them money for doing nothing.