what the heck is going on with HASH


#121

Hubris: “overweening pride”

It’s funny to me that Martin Hash has a rant about the hubris of Microsoft and most of its employees. I have no doubt that it’s Martin’s hubris that is driving some of the bone-head decisions that make A:M the second rate application that it is. I make the statement that A:M is second-rate because as soon as anyone gets something decent done with it, and attracts attention, they either go to work for someone using a first-rate application, or if they own their own studio, they start using a first-rate application in order to improve their productivity. If A:M were first-rate, the switches from A:M to something else would not be taking place, or would occur much less often. (I have no doubt that certain areas of A:M are first-rate, but to be considered to be first-rate, you have to win in enough areas, stability being one of these, that you are ‘over-all’ better than all or most of the other choices.)

The fact that Ken Baer, A:M MacOS programmer, thinks A:M will be the only thing standing in a year or two is the very definition of hubris. Maya’s owners could go out of business today, and the application would continue to be used and expanded by third-party developers to the extent that A:M would never catch up with it. A|W and the other companies may have to layoff their research scientists, program testers, marketing whizzes, VP’s of Technology, etc. but they’ll survive, IMO. And of course, a completely unexpected app could come up and take the lead from everyone. The time of admiring certain aspects of A:M as being both an advantage over other apps and unique in the industry is coming to an end. There are too many offsetting advantages in other apps, and A:M’s advantages are being nullified by new additions to the other apps, while A:M’s feature list is full of half-baked features that do not quite function at more than a minimal level of functionality. Three or four years ago, A:M was very attractive, overall, in comparison to Lightwave or Max, for example, but this just isn’t true anymore! Especially if you need a dedicated system to run A:M! (How many times have we heard that A:M is a thoroughbred application that needs a clean OS and good hardware? How many times have we heard that A:M is the animation application for the one-man animation studio? I have come to the conclusion that these two statements can only be true if the one-man studio has a high-end system dedicated to running ONLY A:M and nothing else, it would sill be debateable even then.)

It is weird that you get this attitude from Martin and the Hash programmers that A:M will someday rule the 3D application marketplace, while at the same time, they are obviously not attempting to produce a tool for high-end use. Hash’s marketing strategy, at least in the near term, seems to be to ignore the relatively few high-end users, and just focus on the pure amateurs – what some have called the Poser crowd.

Some people think Hash must be stupid, insane, or extremely short-sighted for their apparent marketing stategy, or even for ignoring the wishes of the larger amateur segment of their user-base that is clamoring for more stability, and more meat in the existing features, rather than another orgy of additional half-baked features. We could talk about cloth, dynamics, flocking, etc., but why not go back up the list to DOF, basic import/export, or some of the other basic things that the Hash programmers never really completed. They rush to add the next new feature, so that they can claim to have ‘cloth dynamics’, ‘hair’, or ‘deformation cages’, and they never take the time to COMPLETE or improve the features they claim to have. Depth of field is a feature that’s been around for a while, and it’s minimally useful in A:M, IMO. For certain shots, it will work out OK, but never the shot that YOU want to do! You can do a tie or a pony tail with the cloth/spring system capabilities of A:M, assuming you are using one of the more stable versions, but you would never want to try to make extensive use of it.

But I don’t believe that Hash’s actions, and apparent marketing strategy are ‘stupid’. Marketing-wise, you might say that they are doing something that will return them a very nice profit year after year, regardless of what the mainstream animation market is like. There will always be fresh meat willing to plunk down a few hundred dollars for the promise of creating their dreams and visions, to rephrase P. T. Barnum’s famous maxim.

However, following this marketing strategy, and at the same time, expressing opinions such as those of Martin’s and Ken Baer’s, that A:M will rule the 3D application marketplace is either indicative of stupidity or something else. Rather than simple stupidity, I believe it is sheer hubris. Hubris is capable of making highly intelligent individuals do or say incredibly stupid things. Martin and his crew are so enamored of his patch technology and the A:M application in general, that they refuse to consider alternatives. They are blind to paths they could have taken long ago that would have made A:M a much better application today. Why is it that Zpider has to single-handedly create so many plug-ins to do what I consider to be essential to advanced modeling in A:M? Same thing for Arthur Waselek’s work. Why does a third-party need to create a plug-in that does something as basic as .obj import/export? How in the world can Hash make statements about ruling the 3D world, when things as basic as Depth of Field rendering, motion blur, and UV coordinates are so poorly or incompletely implemented, or not implemented at all?

I’m not saying that patch technology isn’t great. It has lots of benefits. I’m not saying that A:M doesn’t have the potential to be truly great. It does. But there seems to be a fundamental schism between what Martin and the programmers think of A:M’s future, and how it is actually being developed and marketed. I know that Hash and his programmers are highly intelligent people. Therefore I have concluded that the only reason for this schism is either a cynical promotion of A:M as a high-end tool with the intent to make as much money as possible off of beginners and amateurs, OR it is pure hubris: they believe that even with all of the warts, half-implemented ‘features’, and shortcomings of A:M, it truly will be the eventual winner in the 3D application marketplace.

Anyway, I obviously disagree in part with Arthur and some of the other A:M supporters. I think many of the things they say are absolutely true, but that doesn’t mean that the various A:M detractors are absolutely wrong. There is more than one side to these issues, and many of these complaints are from the perspective of professional users needing to generate output on a realistic schedule, not amateurs attempting to create a short in their spare time. The same difference in perspective is true with Steve S. and the A:M support staff. They may be great people if you meet and interact with them in person. But it is a fact that Steve can be extremely petty and assinine in his actions on the list and in his email correspondence. Sorry, Steve, but it is quite obvious to many people. It doesn’t help when he insists on all bugs being reported to him, and acting like there are no stability issues with the software in his list and email communications.

My own experience with Steve has completely turned me off to A:M. I reported an interface bug recently. It appears to be a possible corruption of the memory structure that is used in the display of the project tree, and the result is that the project tree display is corrupted, and it becomes impossible to select certain item in the tree. On my system this comes up fairly often, and the only way to get rid of it is to quit A:M and restart. I have gotten this error in 9.51b repeatedly, and along with all the other problems, I set A:M aside for awhile. I have only just installed 9.51e, so I’ve not encountered this particular bug yet in it, but there is no mention of it being fixed in any of the 9.51 or v10 bug-fix lists, that I can see. When I reported it to Steve, he requested a file or else repeatable steps to reproduce the bug, and gave no indication that he had reported the bug to the programmers. Unfortunately, this is not a bug that affects or can be captured in a file. It occurs too randomly for me to figure out how to reproduce it, and any programmer knows that there is a large class of possible bugs that are not reproduceable by user-initiated steps. (How does a user exactly reproduce the interaction of various programs, hardware drivers, and associated .dlls?)

Jay


#122

It is just amazing to me that A:M doesn’t have this natively by now. Arthur Wasalek has given A:M the capability to import/export quad-based models, but you still need to do decaling in A:M to be able to round-trip a model to Deep Paint or ZBrush for texturing, if I am not mistaken. Please correct me if I am! Anyway, at least an A:M model can now be textured outside of the application in ZB or DP.

What is bad for Hash is that past and current A:M output could be generally so much better if users had had access to this capability in the past. When will Hash realize that better interoperability with complementary software such as DP and ZB will vastly improve the perceived capability and quaility of A:M as users create and show off better output??

Sure, it was always possible to create a beautifully textured model in A:M, with a lot of hard work, and it was arguably easier to do this in A:M than in some of the other packages, once upon a time. Now other apps like Maya have their own powerful tools, and applications like DP or ZB make it so easy to create a texture for an .obj model. Arthur’s new plug-in makes it possible to get this textured model back into A:M, at least until the next version of A:M is released.

But my point is that I don’t think this would ever have happened without Arthur or some other user stepping up to the plate. Hash apparently has no desire to do these ‘little’ things that everyone else in the 3D world takes for granted.

Jay


#123

This is in Lightwave. Took 2 minute 24 seconds to render with 16 levels of reflection on a pretty old Dual 1.1 gighz Athlon. . .

Can you spot the difference? :wink:


#124

OH YEAHHHHH

Go Billy Go Billy

/me dances around cheering

:bounce: :buttrock: :thumbsup: :smiley:


#125

I fixed your pic wegg:


#126

Bwahaha, genius Balistic!

:applause: :applause: :applause:


#127

same reply as Wegg, except replace Billy with Brian

:bounce: :scream:


#128

fixed yours, Brian.

:stuck_out_tongue:


#129

Joe/Wegg,

so i don’t see it… what’s wrong with the last 2 renders you guys did?.. :shrug: anti-aliasing problem maybe?

:D:D :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:


#130

notice how the antialiasing problem goes away once you add noisy lights…


#131

well, i guess (; it’s time to tell ya
that anti-alias has been turned OFF on my render
since it’s just one frame of a test-anim
me did last weekend

will fix this (; promised


#132

Originally posted by no0ne
[B]well, i guess (; it’s time to tell ya
that anti-alias has been turned OFF on my render
since it’s just one frame of a test-anim
me did last weekend

will fix this (; promised [/B]

OOooo Turn it on and clock how long it takes. Put the reflections up to 16. Better kiss your puter good-by for a good 3 hours. . .


#133

Appreciate the comments that some of your gave to help me on my 3D program search. I went to the RealSoft website and checked it out. It seems to be a very powerful program but didn’t see much in documentation though but I’m definately still concidering it.
All you Lightwavers out there seem to just love Lightwave! Tell me just what it is that you like about it? A serious question. I’m concidering it too, I really like the support and documentation that they supply. They have a really good deal thats apparently been held over from the holidays. $1,595 for the program and $1,400 worth of training materials free.
If I get it I’ve been advised to get Messiah also to help the character animation aspects. Whadda think?


#134

I started looking for other software to model and animate in long before hash’s inquisition, why? because I came to terms with the fact that AM and hash were not going to fix all the small problems that add up to very big problems. All the new folks using AM will run into these problem as they get better at AM and start to get into all the features that should work and dont.

I have found with the help from Billy, Joe and Bri Messiah studio and that renderer is 10 times better then AM’s and its not even done yet. I also bought ZBrush 1.23 a long time ago and when I was looking for software I gave it a good going over and I think all 3d software should be this way but I had a problem making models in ZB for export for animating was just not an option because of the poly count. The the fine folks the put out ZB released 1.5 and ZSpheres and really listened to there users now I use ZB for all my modeling and texturing because the made it so you have great control over the mesh you make, now there is a company that cares.

I have also been playing with Wings3D and I really like this for a poly/sub-d modeler. I messed with it for one night and alreay know most of what I need to get a projrct on its way, plus it plays well with messiah very well to.

So in short there are lots and lots of apps that can replace AM with ease and some are free like wings and some you can get for up to half off from the email list. (messiah)

Well I have not looked back at AM and I dont thing I will for a long long time if ever. The only thing that might make me look at it again is if I hear that somebody bought hash out and is turning it into the app it should be and all I hear is rave reviews about it.

Dave

PS giantkiller just read your post.
I checked out LW and for the life of me I could not get pasted the interface but thats just me, some people I know love it and say the interface is just fine.


#135

Originally posted by davef

PS giantkiller just read your post.
I checked out LW and for the life of me I could not get pasted the interface but thats just me, some people I know love it and say the interface is just fine.

The LW interface is horrible. Very inconsistant and un-intuative. :-/


#136

It won’t take hours- the reflection level won’t kill his render time as that isn’t even a linear increase with this scene- the recursion of the reflections gets faster and faster as you go with this scene because of it’s limited (physical) reflection depth and the shrinking size of the recursed reflections in the only possible surface unlimited reflections can be reached (the sphere and it’s reflections in the wall).

What WILL kill his time is the oversampling he’ll need to do to match the beautiful AA you’ve got going on in the lightwave renderer.:drool:

FYI: from 4 to 16 levels of reflection added only about 20 seconds onto my render time. The oversampling KILLED me.

Image attached: 16 levels of reflection, 200% oversampling, AA on, shadows on. Render time(running while I type this): 3:16 AMD 1800+

Now DON’T take this as a defense of Hash’s current bullshit OR the AA (which I’ve often said is PISS POOR! and isn’t where it ought to be for this image, certainly)- I’m banned like all the rest, but the renderer, when used well, doesn’t have to be the stinking infested tarpit so many make it out to be. Just a tarpit.:shrug:

At any rate I’ll be switching apps if I ever finish my current project… lightwave is looking better and better, have to try the demo here soon.


#137

i have a simple solution to all your hash woes:

switch to wings!! yay.

or just order the lw discovery ed… or i can upload it to you as i use it and have teh cd for it.

OR, just download maya ple 4.5, houdini apprentice, or xsi experience…

that would be teh easiest thing to do.

doesnt it seem odd that one man can make a better app with less bugs and be more stable in PRE 1 release than a software with who knows how many people are on taht dev team at v10 release.

haha, bjorn…you the man
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :applause:


#138

I have asked the Electric image man about upgrading from AM and this is what he said…


I will give you $400.00 off our price for a competitive upgrade from Animation Master.  Your cost will be $895.00 plus shipping and handling.

This price will not come with printed manuals (manuals are in pdf
format on the cd’s) but it will include the DUO dongle which will allow you to run
Universe 5 on the Mac or the PC. Printed manuals are available for $59.95
but will add 6 pounds to the shipping costs. Call 888-736-3371 ext
107
(Phil) or 109 (Mike) and make sure you have your serial number from
the AM
program. We accept Visa, MasterCard, and American Express. Pass this
information on and as long as the serial numbers supplied check out,
we will
honor this for your user group.

Best Regards,

Phil Martin
Electric Image, Inc
Sales Team

Interesting stuff!

What do you guys think, is it worth it?
:stuck_out_tongue:


#139

Originally posted by meloncully
doesnt it seem odd that one man can make a better app with less bugs and be more stable in PRE 1 release than a software with who knows how many people are on taht dev team at v10 release.

Oh yeah, because Wings3d has monstrous IK…woops no IK. I mean, check out it’s constraint system for rigging…woops, doesn’t have that either. Dope sheet…no. As nice as Wings3d is, it is a far cry in complexity from an app like AM, so no it doesn’t seem all that odd when you really think about it.

Now if we could take Wings3d’s modelling, AM8.5’s interface and animation and 3Delight’s renderer…oh mama what an app it would be!


#140

Wings doesn’t claim to be an animation package, but it sure beats the crap out of AM’s modeler… both in stability and useability. Patches in my opinion are a thing of the past. And a free and good modeler is still better than 300 bucks of a half-working program…

As for animation, Messiah is FAR superior to AM. Much easier to work with. Oh and Messiah has only ever crashed once or twice on the machines i’ve gone through at work. Usually the crashes were caused by Lightwave and for a while due to defective hardware. At home i work exclusively with Messiah now, and it hasn’t crashed so far. At all…

That beats the snot out of anything AM is capable of saying with respect to stability…

And keep in mind that there are less employees at pmg (makers of messiah) than there are at Hash… less workers, more stability. Hash simply has no excuse…