what the heck is going on with HASH

#81

Arthur:

First let me say that I was one of the folks that asked you to write the plugin after you sent an email to the list saying that you could do it if hash wouldn’t. Thank you for that nice piece of work.

Funny that a user has to spend his time to do something as basic as this when it has been asked for since version hell I cant remember 2 or 3 versions ago at least.

“It’s funny that people expect when they report a bug or an enhancement suggestion that Hash should “have to” do it. Try that with another company. If it doesn’t fit or make money - why do it. Other companies might send you a letter saying “thx for the input”, but whether they do it or not is up to them. It seems that we have gotten to used to the fact that Hash actually provides timely patches.”

That the whole point of feed back from the users is it not, to see what the users want and need so that others will buy the program. Everything people have asked for would do wouders for the user base. The reason hash has to do timely patches is because they release software that they know is so full of bugs that people will be unable to do anything but the very basics so the user group is the beta testers and when they think it works on most computers they think its fixed and dont listen to people telling them it still crashes.

Anyway I hope it works out for you but at some point you will hit the same hash wall as everyone else and it will be time to move on.

I will try your plugin out and let you know how it works.

Dave

#82

well lets get some things straight here.

1.) hash is NOT dying

2.) hash still has GREAT support during version 9.0 they had quite a hard time (and less time for support) because they re-implemented the whole software. of course this means a lot of bugs. but it also means a:m got a LOT better under the hood.
now we are at 10.0 and its truly great.

3.) Cararan, have you once tried to mail to lightwave and get a feature implemented in the next week or 2 ? huh ? no ?

4.) it is CLEARLY stated in the list rules what is allowed and what is not allowed. the rules also state that you will get KICKED for violating the rules. its as simple as that.

5.) the list is no place to discuss such things. think about it. WHAT can it help to do so ???

6.) there are all nice people at hash. mail them directly and you’ll get an appropriate answer. no one at hash will usually read the list. it is a USER FORUM.

7.) its no big deal to be kicked off the list. send a mail to steve@hash.com with an apology for violating the rules and you will be back on

8.) raji: i’ve heard of quite some people who left hash and missed certain features.

9.) we’ve seen quite some trouble for 3d companies in the last years havent we ? not so hash.

10.) commiekeebler: how do you mean “was shut down the hard way” ? i’m still getting my list mail just fine and was getting it all the time.

11.) gentle fury: read the list rules and you’ll KNOW what you are writing about. (a small spoiler: you’ll know you are wrong)

12.) dfaris: if you’d read your list mail you’d know that there is a FREE OBJ importer/exporter plugin written by arthur walasek for a:m and it also supports UV.

13.) hey thanks pswoods for mentioning me :slight_smile:
i’m flattered to be the one keeping you use a:m!
i aggree with you that the rib exporter will be a very powerful tool once its operational. and i’m considering to join Nicholas Yue in his battle developing it.

14.) my fault: discussing this in public is not going to change anything. tell hash directly what you want changed

15.) brian you are right. their target market is the beginning user. though YOUR work prooved best you can do VERY professional work with a:m.

16.) oh wow and i thought there could be nothing more tasteless than calvin pissing on a logo. i was proven wrong. sigh

17.) oops instead of reading my #12 read walasek’s post above :wink:

finally i havent responded to any thing joe cosman said, but i know that during version 9 hash was really busy getting the version up and running and therefore i understand how they had less time for support. however, i have lately found that the great support you were used to is back

#83

dfaris:

Thanks - I do remember you asking for it - I was going to go thru my list of people that sent me email and tell them where to get it incase they have been booted…

As far as “That the whole point of feed back from the users is it not, to see what the users want and need so that others will buy the program.” I totally agree. But, that list is not for feedback from the users. I know that it should be, or there should be some list set up for that, but that isn’t the purpose of that particular list.

Let me know if you need it for an earlier version of AM

#84

Originally posted by ZPiDER

13.) hey thanks pswoods for mentioning me :slight_smile:
i’m flattered to be the one keeping you use a:m!
i aggree with you that the rib exporter will be a very powerful tool once its operational. and i’m considering to join Nicholas Yue in his battle developing it.

For goodness sakes please do it! Nicholas has done a great job on his plug-in, having someone as experienced as you joining him would only make it that much better. Add to that 3Delight going 1.0 and this would be fantastic.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

#85

Originally posted by lildragon
[B]If a A:M community was opened here, would people use it? Or will it stay barren? Cause if you look at the other app forums, they’re just bussling with helpful enthusiatic users…

salud [/B]

Look at the Houdini forum, it’s not exactly bustling with activity yet, though I’m sure it will pick up as more folks find out about it. I’m thinking the same would happen for an AM forum.

Would it be that difficult to set it up and see?

#86

The list was shut down for a couple hours I think. I’m not on the list myself any more, so I can’t tell you more than that. I’m removing the offensive logo from the website (I did it on an impulse, my bad). Seemed funny at the time. Took 3 crashes to finish it in AM, and even then had to touch it up in photoshop.
Irony, huh.

I’m really running out of ideas on how to make Hash care about its existing customers. They simply don’t listen. I thought an offensive image might work as a wake up call.

#87

Zpider: I understand what you are saying but:

12.) dfaris: if you’d read your list mail you’d know that there is a FREE OBJ importer/exporter plugin written by arthur walasek for a:m and it also supports UV.

Just the fact that a user (even one as nice as Arthur) has to step up and do this very basic exporter that should be there already is bad in the first place. This has been asked for from hash for years and was in the earlier versions then they took it out so a feature that users had and needed was now taken out, Please.

As for writing Steve: There must be 5 or 6 post saying that people have sent him emails and either got nothing or was told to go blow. Not in those words but in some way or another. The guys at Eggprop had been doing just what you said untill Martin put a stop to it because the programers were fixing bugs.

I was one of the people that sent steve email about the OBJ export/import plug and he told me that hash was NEVER going to add support for that because they had the 3DS import/export plug. Tell me that makes sence import a 3DS model that you cant edit and is most likly to be a triangulated model. Boy that really helps me out. And if your like me and like painting on models instead of useing PS or something there is no way to do this with out UV maps. How hard can it be for them to put that in if Aurther did it in as short a time as he did.

Now what about the folks that Still use V9.x? They are pretty much out in the cold now because as you know hash will not fix the all the bugs in it once they release v10. So they put out v9 with all its bugs and it is still very bugy even after putting out the whole alphabet of updates and then some. That program NEVER should have been released all it does is make hash look like all they want is our money every year. I mean why not take longer when you do a rewrite of all the programimg and make sure the app works right and fixx all the bugs they have and the renderer?

#88

first off: i thought the elf logo was over the top, but still funny.

my biggest worry with hash is that they do seem to be trying to market themselves as poser plus. offering free pre-rigged models to novice animators, and spending valuable resources on integrated chat??? top my list of key symptoms.

i think the program kicks ass, but versions 9 and 9.5 sucked out loud. i have renewed hope for version 10, but my biggest problem now is trying to get up to speed without any real reference material.

hash seems committed to neglecting the key areas of documentation and stability in favor of building their feature list.

i can’t say they’re in the business of selling vaporware, but they certainly seem to be desperate to expand their user base while negelcting their existing customers.

i stated on the list that i agreed with everything that gilles mentioned, save his point of free speach on the list. the resultant stream of unfocused whining and generic “me too” posts only proves my point.

i don’t think hash is going to change their positioning, but i’m willing to give them a chance with version 10… but it will be their last.

-jon

#89

Thats anouther thing what the hell are they doing with the chat thing? I know they put it in there so that everyone will not use forms like this and IRC then hash will be able to boot people from that too.

#90

Lol come on people

hash is a really good soft
they dont have a team of 40 people working on …is not like maya or MAx …ect

so it is normal that they take more time to fixe the bugs (also version 9.0 have to much bugs)

so yes i am sometime frustrating when it crash but it still a really good soft for the quality/prize

of you have never do 3d …or check out Animatino master just 1 hour
shalup when you said that AM suck hard !!!

#91

I had turned-off my list mail for a while, because I was so irritated with the “paid tutorial” debate…I just switched it back on yesterday with a new attitude.

I apparently missed all of the fireworks, but if I can throw out my two cents, I think Version 10 of this program is the best one yet.

I was very inspired with The guys at Eggington, when I bought the program in 2000–I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had such a disappointing experience!

I met Martin and Steve last year, and they seem like great guys. Maybe this will seem like a tempest in a teapot in a couple of weeks…

The Hash team has been very cordial with me. I asked Steve if they would re-implement Motion Capture, and after I showed him a tutorial that I had done on it for A:M, the feature came back in only a couple of weeks.

I don’t think that they are geared for amatures, I believe that they are geared towards individuals. The vision of the lone animator bringing his art to life is central to the Hash philosophy.

I am an individual artist. I love Animation:Master.

#92

William,

I understand what you are saying thats why so many people are pissed off because we know what AM can be and should be.

All you hear about is V10 what about the V9 people that sent in there money then got tossed to the dogs in less then 6 months and now have a busted broken APP.

And why did hash take out raytraced shadows? to speed up the renderer? oh I see take it out to fix it instead of fix the real problem. Thats kinda like cutting off your arm when you cut your hand.

So now I would have to send them another $99 to get an app that I paid for in V9 and still dont work, right

Fix the damn app before you start another one and stop supporting the released version.

#93

A few months ago, I e-mailed Steve with polite ly informative tone explaining that his constant efforts to halt discussions, was a real turn-off, and was, in fact, keeping me from upgrading my copy of A:M. I reason that if A:M is good software, it will stand on its own merits, handily weathering any storms created by temporary periods of user dissatisfaction.

I also subscribe to the Painter mailing list, and this very same thing happened - the list Admin was overzealous in his effort to keep the topic so tightly focused that it was often disruptive. Many people left the list, and although the list is still around, it seems as though it’s not used as much.

Gilles mentioned Blender, which is my primary tool at this point. One of the things I respected most about the Blender community (pre-bankruptcy) was that the NaN web admin allowed very free and open discussion. Topics regarding Blender’s strengths and weaknesses, along with talk about any number of competing products, were common. If anything, this increased my respect for NaN and the people behind it.

Now, I don’t know…I still see awesome work from those using A:M, and I still have this itch to upgrade to the latest version and give it a shot. But I really, really, find it hard to tolerate a company that tries to sterilize public opinion by banning people from its mailing list.

Finally, I’d like to commend Gilles for casting the first stone - a lot of times people stay quiet because they they just don’t want to deal with any inconvenience. Hopefully, Hash will come around and see that what has happened (particulary the manner in which it has been handled) is not a good thing.

Regards,

jim

#94

Originally posted by spakman
[B]ROTFLOL!!! Billy, Joe, Brian, whaddap doods, (mando here) Glad I got off that trainwreck years ago. Still Hash taught me a ton.

peace all (Brian, if you look in the jobs section, you’ll see that we still want your ass to work for us. email me dood) [/B]

You see this, wegg? I’m in demand. I want a secretary and a Porche!

hehheh, yo Armando. Seems like just yesterday we were animating those ducks, yeah? Keep in touch dude.

#95

Hello there!

Yes, I am the one who started this madness! :stuck_out_tongue:

Heheh, well, it has been interesting to say the least, after I sent my post to the Hash list, I started to receive tons of emails, near 200 by now and still answering them. So far, about 95% of those agree with me on most of the problems I reported, about 60% would like to see a freeze of the software. The problems that peoples seem to have the most problem with are the creases, then the crashes (but most who have upgraded to v10 seems to think that it got a hell of allot better) and then the renderer, then comes the list being what it is and then the Hash attitude in general.

To be fair, I have to say a few words about those who disagree, about 5%. Most of them refer to AM as being the easiest 3d tool there is, on that I have to agree, and then some say that it cannot be that bad with all the great animations that are made with it. Others replied that AM is the best tool to learn 3D, on that I cannot agree, what is a learning tool that does not have instructions and that forces the student on a scavenger hunt for info?

To those I reply this; true that there was and still are some pretty amazing projects in the work, but how many of those Artists who made that great stuff you saw still use AM? Many of them replied to this post explaining their views and why they stopped using AM, most seem to agree with my own views on the subject.

Some replied that AM is a professional tool. To those I replied that a professional tool is not only one that allows you to make good looking art, it is also one that allows you to do so in a reasonable time span. This cannot be achieved when you spend a good part of your production finding workaround to problems you encounter in the software.

My goal here was not to say that Animation Master is not a great piece of software, it is, and as some others might have put more elegantly, we cannot wait to see it becomes what it could and should be.

Actually my beef with Hash is that I have invested lots of time and energy over the years, spent countless hours learning to deal with the software so I could make good looking models and animations, I have helped the community by answering so many questions, publicly and privately, I have made many and many tutorials and was even considering making some professional grade learning material for it, but then, I got spanked on the online community, the one that comes with AM v9.x and up, as if I was a child, and then ran into many modeling bugs in v10.

Then I realized that my hope of seeing Animation Master become a mature and professional 3d software went down the drain, I saw all those late night hours working hard, flash in front of me, and for what, see crashes after crashes in the V10th version of the software. I flipped, took a long hot bath and thought it over.

What really bothers me is the Hash attitude, which says nothing less then “ok, we got your money, you have upgraded couples of time, you made some good tutorials and all, which is pretty good. But now you are asking us to work and keep our promises of offering peoples good software, no, that we cannot do, not a good marketing strategy, get on with your life, pay for another software and learn 3d again. What, you say that AM doesn’t follow normal 3d software way of doing things and you will have to start over, normal, there is only one good way of doing 3d, OURS!”

Martin Hash would have been a good politician, making allot of promises and then forget about them!

Gilles Charbonneau

#96

I’ve seen these list coups arise every so often. They pass and things go on as usual. With the exception of the good fellows at Eggington (whom I have much respect for), many of the people complaining recently haven’t used the software long, or rather, haven’t dealt with Hash, Inc. long.

Foir good or ill, I don’t think their philosophy as a company will change any time soon. It hasn’t in the 8 years I’ve been playing with it and I don’t see that changing. Hash has always focussed their efforts towards the amateur filmmaker and that will never change. That’s why we don’t see RIB export, OBJ export (built in!), exceptional particle systems and cloth, etc.

I’m not a zealot. I enjoy using Max and Maya for projects where my ass and reputation are on the line. But I can honestly say that I probably could not call myself a 3-D CG animator if it weren’t for A:M, and for that I will be eternally greatful.

All of us who came into the game thru A:M because it was what it was shouldn’t be complaining because it didn’t grow with us.

#97

Mando!

How the devil are you, sir? Long time.

This is like a mini-Boids reunion. :wink:

-Ed

#98

I have ported the code back to AM8.5 so hopefully it will work there. The URL to the new OBJ importer/exporter is http://12.213.91.41/AM/OBJ.hie

I can’t test with 8.5 very well, but it seems to work. If you find problems with it, let me know and I will see what I can do about testing it further. Same things as the 9.5 and 10.0 version except that this version:

  1. Does not have an initial status percent bar (after it tells you how many verticies/etc, then you will see it)
  2. Does not shorten the names of exported map files
  3. Does not have the Licensing protection

Enjoy…

P.s. I much prefer the new 9.5/10.0 SDK over the old one…

Arthur Walasek
Email: awalasek@attbi.com

#99

This software (or should i say soft…war ?! :wink: ) is great, i love animation master, it’s the only company who first tried to make things simple and fun.

But two things do drive me mad : the creases and the crashes, and i just can’t stand hearing that i’m the one doing things wrong (wrong machine, wrong method etc…).
It’s quite sad actually, i wish they’d do something rock solid with a decent modeller instead of making thousands of small updates per year.

#100

I was new on the animaster list in late December. Gilles inquired if anyone would be interested in quality tutorials that folks would have to buy (imagine). I chimed in on that a bit and enjoyed the lively discussion. Then I had to leave the list temporarily (which probably kept me from the boot). Well, I come back on the list and everyone that I was getting to know is gone! Is Ezra out there? He posted a link on the animaster list to CGtalk. Thats how I found all of you rejects. He said he’d get the boot for posting the link. I just want to thank everyone especially Gilles. I was getting ready to throw myself into the arms of Hash, upgrade, invest in training videos and CDs, and just accept AMs shortcomings and deal with it all (creases, crashes) when the fire broke out! I have decided to continue my search for a software program. Any comments on ElectricImage Universe? You know, if some of these other software companies were to find out about ‘The Great Hash List Incident’ they may take advantage of this opportunity to lure some of you away with some deals for disgruntled AM users. Randy
P.S. I liked the elf (Perk), but whats up with that buldge in his pants?:rolleyes: