what the heck is going on with HASH


#41

oooo… i think with that last post you may end up with a few responses to counter that…

as for me, all i have to say is read Joe Cosman’s post on the first page of this thread. That to me is ample proof that the hash team has lost their goodness over time.This is mostly true of the better artists on the list. I mean think of the time they put into making ok software look so great.

I never had any problems with anyone at hash… I think that’s mostly because i didn’t use the software as seriously as the pros who used it very heavily and in a production environment in some cases, making me a mere peon like most other users on the AM list. I mostly just look back and wonder why i decided to follow their near religious ideology.

Raji


#42

Originally posted by Commiekeebler
Oops my bad. The list is back up again (it wasn’t down for long), but the onslaught of anger and frustration continues…

This is nothing compared to the days of the “Kurka.” That guy is half the reason the list is run with such an iron hand. Heck, he’ll probably try to sue me just for mentioning his name. :rolleyes:


#43

Originally posted by Raji
[B]oooo… i think with that last post you may end up with a few responses to counter that…

as for me, all i have to say is read Joe Cosman’s post on the first page of this thread. That to me is ample proof that the hash team has lost their goodness over time.This is mostly true of the better artists on the list. I mean think of the time they put into making ok software look so great.

I never had any problems with anyone at hash… I think that’s mostly because i didn’t use the software as seriously as the pros who used it very heavily and in a production environment in some cases, making me a mere peon like most other users on the AM list. I mostly just look back and wonder why i decided to follow their near religious ideology.

Raji [/B]

I have no doubt, but that doesn’t mean everyon has the same experience, hence my post. Personally I think Hash should have been kissing the feet of the Eggington guys and Avalanche (those guys are amazing!) and it was/is a huge mistake not listening to them. Hopefully they have the sense to support people like Victor Navone and Jeff Lew and realize just how good some of these guys are making their software look. Time will tell and I’m not ready to write them off just yet.


#44

well ive never used AM, nor have i been akin to this mailing list mayham…but honestly what is the point of it? It sounds like all you are allowed to say on there is how good their software is.

AW (funny how they look so similar :wink: ) has a suggestion box right on their site!!! If you dont like something or you would like something added just go there and tell em…you dont get your membership revoked for doing so either :wink:

how can a company expect to ever have a product that is greater then sub-par if they refuse to hear about its flaws and fix them! They are sounding more and more like MS every day :slight_smile:


#45

Originally posted by Gentle Fury
[B]well ive never used AM, nor have i been akin to this mailing list mayham…but honestly what is the point of it? It sounds like all you are allowed to say on there is how good their software is.

AW (funny how they look so similar :wink: ) has a suggestion box right on their site!!! If you dont like something or you would like something added just go there and tell em…you dont get your membership revoked for doing so either :wink:

how can a company expect to ever have a product that is greater then sub-par if they refuse to hear about its flaws and fix them! They are sounding more and more like MS every day :slight_smile: [/B]

Heheh, ok, don’t mean to sound like the resident Hash booster, but if you want something done you just email Steve directly. He’s kind of like a suggestion box except he’s got a parrot on his shoulder and a couple of brewskies in hand. :stuck_out_tongue: Of course just like Alias, not everything you ask for is going to be implemented.

The old, old list (we’re talking Journeyman days here) allowed people to bitch as well as toss around tips and bugs. However one guy kind of took the whining to a new level and would take the list off of it’s intended course. Now it’s gone completely the other direction and IMHO allows too little bitching. I think another reason for this was that every few months, new folks buy the program and ask the same question or complain about the same thing that someone else did a few months prior. That’s why I wish there was a forum on CG-Talk. There could be both bitching and tips and it would be easily searchable. Could be a huge boon to newbies.


#46

Heheh, ok, don’t mean to sound like the resident Hash booster, but if you want something done you just email Steve directly. He’s kind of like a suggestion box except he’s got a parrot on his shoulder and a couple of brewskies in hand

no the truth is that even if you e-mail steve directly you hardly ever get a reply back… and even if you do it’s days after the problem occured, which in many cases is way too slow. For those who wanted to use AM in a production environment, these few days were a few too many.

Of course just like Alias, not everything you ask for is going to be implemented

Alias doesn’t have constant crashing problems. People on the AM list have gone as far as getting on their knees and begging for Hash to do a feature freeze and fix their crashing issues… but did they listen? That was and still is one of their biggest problems and they haven’t done squat about it. Like Gilles Charboneau said, they keep adding more buggy features instead of actually getting rid of the bugs.

AM has a ton of features… these guys need to slow down or even stop with the features and fix the friggin’ bugs. And if they can’t take that kind of comment without booting everyone off the list, then the software is forever stuck in crash mode.

I think another reason for this was that every few months, new folks buy the program and ask the same question or complain about the same thing that someone else did a few months prior. That’s why I wish there was a forum on CG-Talk. There could be both bitching and tips and it would be easily searchable. Could be a huge boon to newbies.

AM users shouldn’t have to search the internet for help… Hash should have their own FAQ on their own site, their own list of tutorials on their site, and so on and so forth… But they haven’t even made the effort for that. They’ve invested all their time and effort into showing off how great and all powerful their software is while hiding its flaws.

Speaking of flaws, Joe was telling me a while ago while discussing AM that Hash edited out a ton of crashes for the videos they made. I remember only seeing one while Raf Anzovin was demonstrating his rigs so i was further convinced that AM was great all around. Turns out they had just cut out all the crashes from the final video… i was wondering why they cut out so much out of there.

:slight_smile:

Raji


#47

I have been using AM since version 5 also I have emaild Steve, Martin just about everyone one at Hash at one time or another about things such as obj import/export options and adding UV Map support ect ect.

The email I recived back from Steve told me that they were not going to add import/export support ever because they had 3ds import. Now lets look at that a program that only uses quads is going to support an import that most of the time gives you triangulated models and even when you do get a quad model AM only lets you import the model to use as a prop so you can edit it, now that makes it so usefull PLEASE.

as for the UV maping I’m still waiting for a reply about that one been 2 years.


#48

Originally posted by Raji
no the truth is that even if you e-mail steve directly you hardly ever get a reply back… and even if you do it’s days after the problem occured, which in many cases is way too slow. For those who wanted to use AM in a production environment, these few days were a few too many.

No, the truth is that some people don’t ever get a reply back. Don’t assume that just because you don’t get fixes quick that it is the same for everyone. Like I said, he may not always listen but you are trying to make it sound like they never do, which is not true at all.

Alias doesn’t have constant crashing problems. People on the AM list have gone as far as getting on their knees and begging for Hash to do a feature freeze and fix their crashing issues… but did they listen? That was and still is one of their biggest problems and they haven’t done squat about it. Like Gilles Charboneau said, they keep adding more buggy features instead of actually getting rid of the bugs.

AM has a ton of features… these guys need to slow down or even stop with the features and fix the friggin’ bugs. And if they can’t take that kind of comment without booting everyone off the list, then the software is forever stuck in crash mode.

Hash crashes more then any app I have ever used, but to say that Alias doesn’t have crashing issues isn’t entirely correct. I’m all for feature freeze though. I think Giles presented a great list and hope that Hash, once they calm down a bit, will listen to them.

AM users shouldn’t have to search the internet for help… Hash should have their own FAQ on their own site, their own list of tutorials on their site, and so on and so forth… But they haven’t even made the effort for that. They’ve invested all their time and effort into showing off how great and all powerful their software is while hiding its flaws.

Hash does have a FAQ http://www.hash.com/hashfaqs/index.html but I was trying to be nice in my email before. What I probably should’ve said was that most newbies are too lazy to take the time to read the FAQ and learn on their own and instead clutter the list with questions that have already been answered. At least if there was a forum here, other people would nudge them that way and try to get them to be more responsible for themselves.

Speaking of flaws, Joe was telling me a while ago while discussing AM that Hash edited out a ton of crashes for the videos they made. I remember only seeing one while Raf Anzovin was demonstrating his rigs so i was further convinced that AM was great all around. Turns out they had just cut out all the crashes from the final video… i was wondering why they cut out so much out of there.

:slight_smile:

Raji

Crashes are something they need to come to grips with and fix. Feature freeze and the acceptance that sub-d’s and not their spline technology is the way to go are tops on my list. That’s what it would take for me to move back to AM as my primary app. I think Hash would do well to look at the Lightwave community, they set a great example!


#49

Originally posted by dfaris
[B]I have been using AM since version 5 also I have emaild Steve, Martin just about everyone one at Hash at one time or another about things such as obj import/export options and adding UV Map support ect ect.

The email I recived back from Steve told me that they were not going to add import/export support ever because they had 3ds import. Now lets look at that a program that only uses quads is going to support an import that most of the time gives you triangulated models and even when you do get a quad model AM only lets you import the model to use as a prop so you can edit it, now that makes it so usefull PLEASE.

as for the UV maping I’m still waiting for a reply about that one been 2 years. [/B]

Yeah, I’ve never really understood that one either. I think it’s because 3ds files were very popular a few years back, but why they haven’t focused on building a really solid obj importer/exporter is baffling to me.

and like I said in my previous email, I wish they would look around and see that sub-d’s are the way to go. There’s a reason that almost every 3d app out there has embraced this technology, because it really is better.


#50

WOODS: There IS some good in you, father - I can sense it.

HASH: It is… too late for me.

Seriously, tho - it is by no means too late for Hash to turn things around. Consider the following.

  • Everyone and his dog knows about AM, and it is generally regarded (not endorsing the axiom – just repeating) that it is THE low-cost alternative to high-end software. That goodwill could evaporate overnight - the process has already begun - but it hasn’t happened yet.

  • It wouldn’t take too damned much to make AM very attractive again. E.g. adding the ability to import – not model, modify, texture, or anything – just import – poly meshes and rig and animate them and sub-d them at render time would cause a tidal wave of interest. If it were legal (it’s not), a 16-yr-old code monkey with a cracked dev tool could port the necc. code from some open source tool like Blender - probably in less than a month.

  • This guy has been working like a dog to extend AM’s capabilities to a semi-respectable/professional level. His stuff is powerful, stable, and useful. I’m using a lot of these. I’d go so far as to say that this page of plugins alone has kept me using AM (in addition to a more comprehensive tool). I worked out a system for modeling and animating simple chars and exported their pieces as SWF for 2D Flash animation using his AM2SWF plugin – it rocks.

  • This guy started working on a RIB exporter for AM. When this battle station is operational, it will now be the ultimate force in the universe. Seriously, tho, if Hash were to embrace this project, maybe hire the guy on to develop it into something really slick, with support for 3Delight/Aqsis, just imagine the kind of interest they would get from serious artists. In any case, a scene translator is desperately needed if they are going to survive.

  • With all the backlash lately, I would be very surprised if Hash didn’t know that it is time to change a few things. What would happen if they redesigned their website, including (1) an open forum (2) information about the Magical Mystery Licensing Scheme (3) a server/network/host that can handle more than one linx browser at a time, for fu** sake, (4) broad and deep compendium of good training materials – hired, if necc. (5) a demo of the software (just suck it up and do it, like everyone else – you’re not that special).

  • Aside from all the negatives – and there are plenty right now – once you get your characters built and rigged (this is where 90+% of the crashing happens), AM is actually very pleasant for animating – compared to anything. For animation ONLY, it is very much in the hunt. You can’t trick out your animation environment like you can with the other apps, but the stock config is groovy enough to be very usable.

  • There has been some talk/work on creating a scripting platform in AM. IF it ever comes to maturity and attracts talent… well, we all know what great scripts do for software.

  • They should also stop pretending to have particles and dynamics engines. There are enough competitors for these features that no one should have to worry that they can’t have them cheap - and WORKING. Cloth seems to work okay, but everything should get the scissors. They would get a lot fewer rants if they didn’t roll out features that aren’t really polished/stable.

Personally, if I were running the company, I would start axing the parts of the package that just don’t please the artists: modeling and rendering. I guess I would take the core code and make it into a direct competitor with Messiah. Either that or I would make input/output the top priority.

Top priority after cleaning up the current PR mess, that is


#51

It’s nice and all, but for around the same price you can get the base version of Cinema4D 8, which has considerably nicer workflow IMO, or you can get RealSoft4D which while not quite so intuitive as Cinema, has some very impressive features… and it’s pretty solid.

Multi-frequency refraction… neat. Very neat. :bounce:

Both companies have pitiful PR, but good customer service. (You have a problem, they’re there to help, but if you don’t have a problem, you tend to get left in the dark. Odd, but symptomatic of a lack of proactive action, to a large extend resulting from the fact that they don’t have much by way of staff other than their developers.)

Originally posted by Commiekeebler
I would not recommend truespace, either. They’ve always been behind in animation department, but hey, if they manage to change that, good for them.


#52

At Eggington, we wore out the phone receiver making calls to Hash about problems and E-mailed them data and descriptions.

Many of them were never fixed.

“nobody was using it so we took it out” and,
“which sounds sexier: no blocky artifacts, or Radiosity?”
“more people will buy it if it says Radiosity.”

The excuse was “the average user will never encounter this bug”
so… how many ‘average users’ do we have getting kicked off of mailing list, or harrassed by the zealots, or browbeaten for their stupidity because they encountered this bug, and had no idea how to work around it?

Animation:Master is a great peice of software, but mostly on paper.

The feature list is oh so sexy, should any of you glance through it the first time. Mmany of them are just ink on the box, and many have been broken and ignored through the product updates.

Since starting their ‘subscription’ service, A:M has consistently gone downhill. Those who paid in november get one month with new software, those who paid in January got the entire year.

The subscription schedule is not good for any 3d product. Instead of focusing on helping the users they have, and ensuring a permanend upgrade-freindly userbase, They push really hard to get that next number version out the door on time, with half working, very unstable features. Newer version numbers sell many units at trade shows, I guess.

And then there’s the apprehensive users that will humm and haww, and get duped for one more upgrade by reading the next version’s feature list.

After all, we professional A:M users went through alot to convince you to put up the money for this product. More work goes into those renders than I can even say in this post.

I can almost guarantee, many animations you’ll see at their website, and at the trade shows was done on Versions of A:M several years old. few, if any, use the latest version of the software, Even in the live demonstrations.

They’ve lost that drive that made the software and users so fun.
It has been replaced by dollar signs, half baked designs, and angry people. Gone are the exciting days of testing new features, and figuring out how to use them for your characters.
Half of my time has been spent Re-updating models for each revision of software. no, not every new version. revision.

This year and part of last year has been very barren for A:M animations, movie tests, and demo reels. The Users are not showing off their work, because stablilty and compatibility issues are keeping them from creating.

Very few of the knowlegable people exist on their mailing lists anymore. They have simply faded into the background. Instead, what I see is hordes of new users asking very simple questions that will not get answered.

The talent and knowlegebase that taught A:M on the list is rare or has dissappeared completely, thanks to the latest crop burning over the last few days.

back in the 80’s, Martin Hash started programming A:M(or its forerunners) about the time Newtek started working on Lightwave(as well as many other companies such as 3d studio, Alias, Softimage, et al). They were all very small companies, and they all had a dreams of the future of 3D.

So, ask yourself these questions.

Why is hash still a 5 person operation, when The rest of these companies grew 100 times bigger?

Why isn’t Martin’s ‘better than anything’ Hash Patch technology
a de facto industry standard?

And why aren’t we seeing powerful demonstrations of 'The software even an artist can afford." ?


#53

I don’t believe there is any package out there with better animation tools than A:M.

We hung on for years. Did everything we could to bring credibility to what we felt was a superior product. Amazing procedural textures, killer constraint and animation control. . . unique and artist friendly modeling. . . We really thought we had a “one up” on
the industry.

check out our eggprops product. . . www.eggprops.com

Then . . . we started running into walls. While the programmers at Hash Inc. were helpful, there really wasn’t anything they could do. Eventually we were stopped from contacting the programmers directly and we had to go through the “Steve” filter. If Steve couldn’t replicate the problem. . . then the problem didn’t exist. So we tried
that for a while. Bug reporting became very involved. Having to walk someone who obviously was NOT an artist/animator through the issues we were having became ridiculous.

They have a perfect model. They sell to the dreamers. The ones who want to “get in” to the industry. 80% of those people don’t even install the software. They could be selling empty boxes with “fulfill your dreams” written on the side and still stay in business. They have
no intention of improving their product to a professional level. Why bother? They just have to keep it good enough so that one or two really patient people create something good enough to put on the back of the box. . . to sell thousands more.

This is a horrible shame. The software is amazing. I can build, rig and texture great looking models in a matter of hours. In a side by side shoot out. . . barring crashes. . . I would put AM up against ANY product on the market. Just don’t ask me to render it. Cause then. . . everything falls apart. :frowning:

I don’t think I will ever use A:M again. I have found an alternative workflow that our company has been using for about a year now that is producing some pretty good results. I long for the integrated elegance of A:M. . . but I don’t think it will ever happen.


William Eggington – http://www.eggington.net


#54

Boy I wish someone who is still on the AM list would post the url for this discussion. You’d probably get booted for it, but it could maybe open some eyes and start some changes.
Well I can hope can’t I :beer:


#55

Weggingt and JoeCosman are two of the people that could work wonders with AM and knew all the small tweaks and work arounds for all the bugs and non working features that AM had. For them to be treated the way they were treated by Hash is un believable. Hell I’ll bet 50% of the sales that Hash got at computer shows were because of their work, I was at siggy and Hash still had their work up all over the place.

The fact that Hash treats people that know Am so very well should tell you something about the people over there it would be like GM telling there best dealers to get lost, unfreaking believable.


#56

I’m really sorry to hear all of this guys… :sad:
I started with A:M 2000, but moved to Maya a year or two ago. I guess I got out at a good time, as the list bannings were just starting. Anyway, I just wanted to say that all of your work was very inspiring, and I wish you luck using other apps.


#57

I keep hearing how some people get the nice treatment, and the special treatment from hash.

I would have to be fair and understand that not everyone is going to be treated the same. To this day I dont know what I did to make Steve go off on me, he must of had a bad day! and I was the next person in line for the bug request.

so realizing that other had the same problem and the thing to do was filled out a bug report

basically I sent in a report of the stereoglyph not being able to render out properly, cant do 2Xsampling on one of them and it doesn’t render crosseye, I fix it in photoshop to make it work. AMV8.5p++,still doesn’t do it. My response from Steve was that I tamper with the program, that I didn’t have a legal copy of it. But still ignore my request. Thinking that this was maybe a computer foul up on records, I wrote back nicely and ask how did he think I have a crack copy of AM? Now I am no longer concern that stereoglypic is not working correctly but that I got dupe into buying a crack copy off of Ebay. ( I probably bought it off from a disgruntle customer, and inherited the attitude) I wrote once per week for a month, then got booted. I wrote to him not the list.
someone on the list told me who I should write to, so I wrote to james and got back on the list. The E-mail I wrote to james was nice but harsher then I wrote to Steve. I was upset! no doubt.

I had a question about problems I was having with AM and 2 of the people that tried to help me got booted, and I felt bad cause I felt I started it and did not realized that I was having a problem with a bug they knew they had.

So I have to be fair and realized that most of the advance user like eggington and Gilles have sent in the report like they are suppose to , and got ignore, which I think a response time should be quicker then a month and before accusing a customer that they have a crack copy of the program should of look the person registry file. So ranting on the list was a futile attempt at getting heard. And if the question of how they wrote to them with a bitter atittude was the issue. Well if you dont know me, at least think about William Eggington, and ask yourself have you ever known him to be rude, loud, name calling SOB? The way Bill have treated me, I would of think he was a boyscout at one time.

My point is that these guys have done alot for Hash, and got ignored. The request for more stability goes way back! At this point Steve have claim to say that the best way to handle this is thru him with a bug report, if you dont mind being called a thief in the process!

I did have alot of fun with AM and james@hash was okay to deal with. I think the program could be worth salvaging. But I would strongly suggest letting go of the soup nazi attitude at Hash. I am not mad at Steve at all he is an employee of Hash, this reflect on the whole company. I wait on tables and get to hear people rant all the time, deal with it and listen to them is the best way to handle the problem.


#58

Originally posted by Agent D
I’m really sorry to hear all of this guys… :sad:
I started with A:M 2000, but moved to Maya a year or two ago. I guess I got out at a good time, as the list bannings were just starting. Anyway, I just wanted to say that all of your work was very inspiring, and I wish you luck using other apps.

It was and IT IS Inspiring, i remember drolling over when i first saw Egg´s website, and those procedurals just went off the roof, i emailed him at the time and asked him if they were gonna port those shaders to LW, he told me maybe, because LW´s architecture was very diferent from A:M, he could not say it for sure, but since now those boys are working with LW and Messiah :buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock: , i hope those marvelous presets would be available to purchase, since i´m kinda lazzy on my texturing i would buy them right away :stuck_out_tongue:

Sil3


#59

We use Darktree a lot more now. www.darksim.com

We have been toying with the idea of doing a new eggprops that includes multiple 3D platforms. . . but. . . it all takes money. . . and thats something we don’t exactly have a lot of right now. :-/


#60

Hash is an odd company. It employs some very skilled, very creative programmers. The problem is that the central philosophy of the founders, for at least the past couple years, has been to make tools for amateurs. They don’t want professionals to use it, because we make feature requests and file bug reports and push the software into configurations that break it . . . what Hash really wants these days is the Poser demographic.

Which, as has been said a dozen times already, is a damned shame. A:M has, by far, the best workflow of any app I’ve used. Parts of it are sheer genius. However, most of the buzzword features . . . hair, cloth, flocking, et cetera . . . those are only there to fill a feature list. They obviously were never intended to be used in any serious context, because outside of the simplest of tests, those features fail (often spectacularly).

The software I get to use at work now is also rickety . . . in fact I’d say it’s shakier than A:M ever was for me . . . but it’s extensible, and flexible, and there are established pipelines to other products.

I’ll probably keep using A:M at home for a while, in the rare instance that I have an urge to do 3D outside of work, but I unsubscribed from the mailing list today, as I’m quite tired of seeing this cycle repeat itself every other year.

It feels weird to be off the list . . . I’d literally been subscribed to it for the past six years without interruption (I think wegg got kicked once or twice though :wink: ) . . . I guess it’s time to start bugging the guys on the DarkTree list now, since I’m having quite a lot of fun with that program at the moment.

Sil3: glad you liked my textures.