what the heck is going on with HASH

#301

Originally posted by Stychentyme
[B]I think that’s a great idea! This would be a great alternative to the AM list.

Do it, man!:bounce: [/B]

Your friends call you Sherlock don’t they? :stuck_out_tongue:

#302

ZSPider,

to those people still whining about being kicked off the list: you just dont get it do you? even in this thread - which is clearly NOT unbiased - you found plenty reference to the list rules. probably you should blame your kick on some reading disorder.:

No you are missing the point, its not whining about getting kicked off the list its about getting the damn software we paid for. Some of us have used AM for many years and we were always told they were going to fix stuff and they never have. Year after year we sent in our money and we got new features that dont work or were unusable in one way or another or other features that onced worked and now didn’t. Hash at 1 or 2 times had most of the bugs worked out on a few versions but the very next one other stuff was broken or features that were in AM that people used is now taken out. Taking features out of software to fix a problem is not the answer.

You do not charge your users for software that you know has lots of bugs then turn around and spend time and money trying to tell them not to say anything to anyone about it. Hash does not seem to understand that some people have deadlines to meet and dont have a lot of time for them to fix stuff that should have been fixed by now. If hash ran the beta program thay have in such away that the software stayed in beta till ALL the bugs were worked out and not till the end of the year that would work but they cant just move on to the new version and leave the old version with out fixing the bugs.

Well inless hash makes some majior changes and lives up to them they are in big trouble

#303

Originally posted by no0ne
[B]like he said

spinnin around the ego-axis :bounce:

it’s sad that some noisy people … :annoyed:
shy away another great plugin-programmer, modeler,… :arteest:

thx alot :hmm:

zpider :beer: [/B]

Sounds like you support zspider… Well, I can’t disagree that sometimes it is another program’s fault, or that it could be hardware drivers. Hell it could even be hardware (memory chip goes bad/faulty power supply). But in all honesty - it usually isn’t.

I do realize that this work is very, very CPU and GPU intensize, hitting the limits on memory usage, Video RAM, and Graphic card capabilities. It also puts a pretty good stress test on your system. I also (posted in another thread) laugh at Maya, cause they crashed almost right away.

I want you to do something. Look on the hash web site for the minimum system requirements to run AM. See it. I (plus almost anyone these day) meet that requirement easy. If I look at Maya’s system requirements, I don’t quite meet them, so I know that I should probably upgrade. That’s the point of system requirements - the minimum requirements necessary to run the software. (I actually feel bad that I posted that Maya crashed after checking the system requirements - I was at fault there).

I am sure I do crash because of my graphics card. Hell it aint even a GeForce. It still does not excuse the application developer from not checking return codes…

#304

I don’t believe Zpider meant to imply that crashes are always due to system settings. The same goes for Kevin Sanderson’s page of tips. By making system tweaks, one can improve stability across the board and perhaps alleviate some problems, but it obviously won’t fix any problems that are still in the software. And there are some still in there.

I run across them, I report them, and cross my fingers that they get fixed. Sometimes I get a response that they’ve duplicated the problem and will take care of it. Other times I get no response at all. They’re busy folks, so I tend to let it slide if I hear nothing back. Many times, the things I’ve found and reported have been repaired. There are times when Hash can’t duplicate a problem, and while it doesn’t mean that the problem doesn’t exist (and I don’t think they have ever openly claimed that), it just means that it’s more intermittent and harder to track down.

Along that line, I’m of the opinion that a lot of these trickier, more intermittent problems are being researched, but they might not make it into the list of fixed bugs. It’s not something that they can say “Hey, we fixed it when you do such-and-such and it crashes” because there may be multiple ways of “setting off” the crash. It doesn’t show up on the list, and people assume that the problem is still there. But that doesn’t mean it’s being ignored.

Again, this is merely my opinion. I don’t know this for a fact, but I’d at least like to believe that this is what’s happening. I can’t really cast judgement on what they are/aren’t doing seeing that I’m not there watching them on a day to day basis, so I tend to hope for the best until I see undeniable proof to the contrary. And while I can’t deny that there are still things that will crash A:M, I also can’t deny that they do make an effort to fix what is reported to them. Just recently I submitted something that I thought was a bug. Steve wrote back and indicated that it wasn’t because the thing I was trying to do (that I couldn’t do) was actually handled another way. I also got a note from Steve that he had somehow misplaced a sample file I sent that demonstrated another bug. Mistakes happen, so I sent him the file again. He then pointed out that part of the file was missing, which was an error on my part. I fixed it and sent it again. Looking at the effort that he’s making to patiently correct my misunderstandings, make sure that he has files that I send, and that the info I send is complete, I can’t completely believe that they ignore their customers.

No, I’m not a rabid fan who believes that the world’s 3D problems will be solved w/ A:M. Yes, there are still bugs in the software. No, I don’t believe it’s totally the user’s/system’s fault, but there are things on the system side that can be done to improve the situation. And yes, I do honestly believe that Hash is working to make A:M better and more stable.

A:M is what it is, and I try to accept it for what it is. I do not mean to downplay others’ experiences with Hash or their software, as I can only speak for mine. And so far, all things considered, mine hasn’t been that bad.

FWIW…

#305

As an industrial controls programmer who has completed projects using MS Visual Studio 6 and .NET, as well as several other programming packages, I have some specialized knowledge in this area, and I agree with Arthur Walasek.

Thank you, Zspider, for adding your half-truths and disinformation to this thread. I like your plug-ins, but… :wavey: 'buh, 'buh, now. Please feel free to come back when you get banned or otherwise ticked-off with Hash. (Maybe that will never happen. Maybe Hash will see the light and turn a corner in their long history. Maybe Bill will stop cheating on Hillary.)

If games and truly high-end 3D applications work fine on a given system, but A:M crashes, then it is highly likely that the crashing is not the fault of your system or drivers. A:M may not like your drivers, but there is no fault in the driver.

What does the typical A:M file corruption have to do with your display system, anyway? Is the saving of the file only partially complete when the display system takes A:M down, or are the files corrupted because of a different bug? I believe the nature of the corruption suggests the latter.

Apparently, Arthur’s post prompted you to write yours. Arthur was replying to some truly twisted reasoning on Kevin’s part. Kevin’s suggestion that we just start replacing video card’s or motherboards to fix A:M, without any information from Hash as to which video cards or other hardware has been certified to run A:M (snigger) is just wrong. Does A:M’s system requirements specify Nvidia only? Does Hash certify hardware for use with A:M?

How about the straw man argument that Kevin uses? He fixed a woman’s computer so that it is more stable with MS applications. Yay! Did she then load A:M and run it crash-free? No? Then how does that show that the problems with A:M are due to generally unstable systems? What Kevin seems to be assuming is that most people have generally unstable systems, and that most problems in A:M would go away if they employed his remedies.

in fact most problems with 3d soft are gfx card driver induced

I believe this is true. For all 3D apps except A:M. Do you really believe that most of the bugs and crashes in A:M are video related? Really? The majority of problems in A:M are induced by the video card driver? :surprised:

And most people on here are not surprised that they were kicked off – not if they’ve been on the list for a few years like I have. It is you, Zpider, that just doesn’t ‘get it’. They are upset that the list has those rules and is run that way, while at the same time, A:M has been very buggy. I really don’t think we would be having this discussion here if A:M v9.5 had been close to bug-free, regardless of the list rules. It doesn’t matter if a company has the ‘right’ to run their list any way they want. Your legal right to do something, the wisdom of doing it, and the ethics of doing it are often completely different things. And if someone perceives that it is stupid or short-sighted to do what Hash is doing, they have a right to come here and say it. But you don’t like that, apparently. And what the heck does ‘bias’ have to do with anything??? Does a plaintiff have to present his case against a defendant in an ‘un-biased’ manner? Does he have to see everything from the defendants point of view? Or does he just have to prove his case against him? Does a defendant have to be un-biased in his own defense? No. Witness Hash’s recent email. He can even refuse to testify if it will incriminate him. :hmm:

#306

I just got an e-mail from Martin. He was very civil and said that they are doing their best to listen to their customers and my/our input would be appreciated.

I don’t quite understand how he can do that when none of us can openly say anything on Hash’s own forum. . . but anyway. . .

I wasn’t quite so civil back. :-/ I guess I need to work on that a little.

I advised him to make stability and render quality his goal and openly tell that to his community.

We will see what happens. If anything.

I really do hope something happens for the better. AM’s workflow and ease of use is second to none. It just can’t be relied on for squat right now. :-/

#307

they will never fix AM
it was buggy with verr 2, 2,.5, 3,and 3.23
and I gave u[p
stated again with 2002 cd 9.51 the same s(t)orry

should I have as single user 10 computer to experiment if AM like or not

AM is crush,buggy amater 3d
and wiil stay that way
we shall see
it was like that from its infancy 10 year ago
with Playmotion,than Animation:apretince
and now AM
I can bet hash wiil drop the price more and more
and add more features and more features
and take more and more stupid new wanna be 3d newbies
as customer
USA has 250 millino people who wants to be 3d
who cares
and new version
and new super truper fro fro fancy features

#308

This forum, with the talent and professionalism of most CG Talk members and the openess that can take place here, has the potential to be the best thing that ever happened to Hash - IF and only if Martin changes his attitude and direction.

He needs to step out of the Ivory Tower, put down the keys to the Ferarri and get his hands dirty down here in the mud with the users. He needs to embrace this forum, talk to the users without putting a marketing spin on it, and more importantly, listen.

No one here is obligated to praise A:M and CG Talk gets a LOT of traffic. Fix the software and Hash gets a lot of returning users and new users out of it. Continue on the current path, and the same path the software has been on since v8 something (and that path is NOT stability…contrary to his message to the A:M List - and if it truly has been then there may be no hope…cause stability has gotten nothing but worse) and he will drive Hash, Inc into the ground because of the negative impact threads here will have on sales. There are other “flame forums” (as he has dubbed them) - but few have the daily hits that CG Talk does.

If they don’t have the resources to be an all in one package - then focus on what they are good at - animation and to some extent, modeling. Allow output to other render engines, Support OBJ import / export. We all know that OBJ’s won’t be as clean as native splines - but we still want the option. If you can pull off a decent render engine with everything else - then more power to ya! Right now it all needs work before it’s truly worth $300 and $100 a year.

I enjoyed using A:M…when it worked. Even as a hobbyist the stability became so horrendous that using it became an exercise in futility. If the App didn’t crash it corrupted a file. The day I see more then one thread here talking about true stability and not some ass kissing - I will be the first person on the phone to Steve to re-subscribe. A:M can be a fantastic learning tool and a great way to rough out ideas quickly to then final render in other packages.

#309

To say that they never want to fix AM is ludicrous. It’s not like they want to make a bad product and go out of business.

I don’t think Hash has ever experienced a backlash like what has happened these last few weeks and I’m sure Martin’s email to the list and to Wegg is genuine. Maybe if everyone who is still interested in AM would take a few minutes to email Steve and/or Martin it could help keep things going on a more positive bent.

AM 8.5 is by far my favorite 3d app, warts and all. I think if they would stick with that UI (and not the horror that is the post 9 interface), work more on the creasing issue, stability and renderer (Martin should call Nicholas about his renderman plug-in) it would be living up to it’s potential.

#310

What is Martin’s Email?

#311

I don’t know about the crash issues really, I made 3 models with AM 2 years ago and it locked up on me at least 6 times on a dual Pentium 3 system.
But anyway, about the letter… Martin certainly can stir up the nest. I think Mr Hash has really embarassed himself. Resorting to name-calling and this coming from the head of a company? If this is some kind of a war then Mr Hash has just wounded his own side by shooting himself in the foot.
When someone resorts to name-calling(‘mofo’ I assume does not stand for MOre FOrtunate) it is usually the sign of a small mind. But, for arguments sake, lets say that Mr Hash is not small minded, what else could it be? One- upmanship? He is very angry? He feels threatened and feels the need to defend himself and his company? I am not calling him small minded, it is just my observation that name-callers fit the profile.
I always thought that the Martin’s Minutes thing on the Hash website was very revealing. I think he fancies himself a mover and a shaker. Some shaking has been going on and the movement, judging by his letter, is now going down hill.
Maybe less time spent writing about topics totally unrelated to 3D would benefit the company better. I think that the world will survive his pholosophical observations, I know I will.
He would benefit more from silence on his part if this is his response. Couldn’t you see the scene at Hash 'Way to go Mr H! Thats telling ‘em, Martin! That Martin doesen’t take anybody’s crap!’ WHERE IN REALITY MR HASH HAS JUST WIDENED THE GAP BETWEEN HASH INCORPORATED AND DEDICATED AND

I for one, am still grateful that I did now buy into AM.

#312

“By the way, I have a MSCS and my ph.D. is computer graphics.”

And then goes on about how he doesn’t tell me how to do art. . . so I shouldn’t tell him how to program. . .

WEEeee. :wink:

He just doesn’t get it.

#313

I first want to agree with Jazbee’s in the effect that I believe Hash is doing all that it can to try to eleviate the bugs. I wasn’t trying to bash Hash in my recent post - what I was trying to say (basically to the person that posted that to the hash email list) that they were basically wrong.

I have talked with Steve personally. I know he is reading this forum. I asked him. In all truth, he conveyed to me that he thought it was “a good idea” - if it keeps going. I guess there have been tries at this in the past, and they were unsuccessful - either it turned into a bitch fest, or activity just died down. I hope that doesn’t happen here. So, if you think that Hash isn’t reading this, you might want to reconsider that opinion.

I want to make this clear. I truly believe that Hash is doing everything to fix the problems that they have. I have seen this first hand from my dealings with the developers and with Steve. The hard part (maybe impossible), as Jaybees pointed out, is that if it is not a reproducable problem, then it is very, very hard to catch. If it is reproducable, please send the information to Steve, and I know that they will take a look at it - if they can reproduce it, they can find the problem, and take steps to fix it.

I kinda want to comment on AM version 9 (although I went from 2001 to 2003). Do you know that they completely re-wrote the software from the ground up? Changed the architecture, and some 400,000 lines of code? This is why it was so buggy. Do we have a right to complain - I’d say yes. Do I believe the subscription idea worked for this release - not at all (that’s probably why I didn’t upgrade). Hash’s subscription model (the business model) really doesn’t have the time in it to account for a major change in the software or architecture. That truly was the problem with v9. I am glad I was not part of that, but I do feel for those that were.

I also want to say, from a developer standpoint, that the new architecture rocks… It will provide a better base than the old architecture and I am sure that V10 will be more stable than any version before it.

On a final note, I found Martin’s post to the list to be a big mistake, business wise. I wonder which of the three categories I fit in since I post to CG Talk, and even Steve thought it was a good idea to have this forum. I also found his comments about having buggy software acceptable as long as we know about the bugs, to be ludicrous. To me, that was a bad business move, and actually makes me wonder when they say 1 thing one day, and another thing the next… very disturbing.

#314

Weggy,

That is very interesting indeed. I’m glad you stuck to your truth and opinions. I think you may have done Martin and AM a favor bigger than anyone yet realizes.

Unfortunately this whole fiasco has left a bitter taste in my mouth, and the word via my mouth is no longer positive toward Martin’s company- though I enjoy the software.

Pisses me off, if I’m truthful, that he bothers contacting certain people while letting Steve burn and pillage against the peasents.:shame:

#315

Originally posted by weggingt
[B]“By the way, I have a MSCS and my ph.D. is computer graphics.”

And then goes on about how he doesn’t tell me how to do art. . . so I shouldn’t tell him how to program. . .

WEEeee. :wink:

He just doesn’t get it. [/B]

Ouch! You mentioned your email was not so civil, any chance we can see it? Or is it only safe for the over 18 crowd :stuck_out_tongue:

#316

[QUOTE]Originally posted by walasek
[B]I first want to agree with Jazbee’s in the effect that I believe Hash is doing all that it can to try to eleviate the bugs. I wasn’t trying to bash Hash in my recent post - what I was trying to say (basically to the person that posted that to the hash email list) that they were basically wrong.

I have talked with Steve personally. I know he is reading this forum. I asked him. In all truth, he conveyed to me that he thought it was “a good idea” - if it keeps going. I guess there have been tries at this in the past, and they were unsuccessful - either it turned into a bitch fest, or activity just died down. I hope that doesn’t happen here. So, if you think that Hash isn’t reading this, you might want to reconsider that opinion.

I want to make this clear. I truly believe that Hash is doing everything to fix the problems that they have. I have seen this first hand from my dealings with the developers and with Steve. The hard part (maybe impossible), as Jaybees pointed out, is that if it is not a reproducable problem, then it is very, very hard to catch. If it is reproducable, please send the information to Steve, and I know that they will take a look at it - if they can reproduce it, they can find the problem, and take steps to fix it.

(Edit)
I also want to say, from a developer standpoint, that the new architecture rocks… It will provide a better base than the old architecture and I am sure that V10 will be more stable than any version before it.
(Edit)

walasek,

Any chance you are available to Hash, Inc. on a freelance basis? The way you turned out those obj import/export plugins was lighning fast. Or how about doing a decent hair plugin? Now, I’ll pay $ for THAT!

#317

Weggington -not an encouraging reply :frowning:

Walasek - reading the forums is one thing, acting on what they read is entirely a different matter. As for previous external forums dying out; that could be due to many things. No productive threads, not enough users to keep info current or simply poor “location.” If A:M truly has the user base Martin claims I would be very worried of this forum died out. CGTalk is, quite simply, one of the major sites for Graphic professionals and hobbyists. If this forum dies then the user base will have been relegated to the casual hobbyist that either doesn’t know of CGTalk or doesn’t have the time or desire to stay current with the industry.

I doubt Martin wants A:M to fail - what business owner does want to fail? He will fail if he doesn’t listen and act. I don’t care if he has an MSCS and a PHd in Computer Graphics - that doesn’t make him a good businessman or good programmer. It’s more “flash” for his wall and to brag about. Martin truly needs to reign in his ego. Some of the most talented people I have ever met in all kinds of careers never went to college at all.

Lastly, While I agree that bugs are to be expected in a complete code re-write - those bugs should be fixed before charging another $100 for the next version. However, if I recall right v9 was the 3rd code rewrite since v4. It was redone for v5, v7 and then v9. I apologize if I am mistaken - but if you are rewriting your code base every 2 versions you will never have stability.

I want Hash to come back from this strong - based on Martin’s exchnge with Weggington though it doesn’t seem he can put his ego aside and listen to the users. He may be a programmer - but we are the ones that (try to) use the software - we know better then him what makes a good workflow, we know better then him what makes the software crash, we know better then him what we need to finish a project. When he recognizes that fact A:M may get back on it’s feet…

#318

I probably shouldn’t have even mentioned anything at all about our conversation. . . it was a private exchange between us and if he had posted anything I said to him in an open forum. . . I’d probably be a little miffed.

But. . . I did it anyway.

You may have noticed that I have a hard time keeping my opinions to myself. . .

#319

I don’t know about the crash issues really, I made 3 models with AM 2 years ago and it locked up on me at least 6 times on a dual Pentium 3 system.
But anyway, about the letter… Martin certainly can stir up the nest. I think Mr Hash has really embarassed himself. Resorting to name-calling and this coming from the head of a company? If this is some kind of a war then Mr Hash has just wounded his own side by shooting himself in the foot. But its not a war at all. He seems to be enjoying this whole incident
Notice the ‘benevolent’ tone, very much like the heads of other companys routinely ridiculed on ‘Martin’s Minutes’.
When someone resorts to name-calling(‘mofo’ I assume does not stand for MOre FOrtunate) it is usually the sign of a small mind. But, for arguments sake, lets say that Mr Hash is not small minded, what else could it be? One- upmanship? He is very angry? He feels threatened and feels the need to defend himself and his company? I am not calling him small minded, it is just my observation that name-callers fit the profile. Some have called him names and thats not appropriate either.
Are we to be charged now with ‘Hate Crimes’? Whats with the Martin’s Minutes thing on the Hash website anyway. Perhaps he fancies himself a mover and a shaker, someone that deserves or should be listened to. Some shaking has been going on and the movement, judging by his letter, is now going down hill.
He would benefit more from silence on his part if this continues to be his response. What are people who support him supposed to think? 'Way to go Mr H! Thats telling ‘em, Martin! That Martin doesen’t take anybody’s crap!’ If this insults someone out there, don’t be insulted, you should be embarrassed. WHAT MR HASH HAS WRITTEN HAS WIDENED THE GAP BETWEEN HASH INCORPORATED AND DEDICATED (and albeit disgruntled) ANIMATION MASTER USERS!!
An olive branch would have been better than a ROCK.
I believe that anyone that buys Animation Master now or continues with it is settling for less.

I for one, am more grateful now than ever that I did not buy into AM because when you buy a software program you’re buying into the company that produces it. And that, in the case, is nothing but a crying shame.

Its like my Wife, shes the greatest and I love her, but her family is wretched save for a few of them.

#320

Originally posted by Nonproductive
we know better then him what makes a good workflow, we know better then him what makes the software crash, we know better then him what we need to finish a project. When he recognizes that fact A:M may get back on it’s feet…

I stuck my neck out. I did it with eggprops , and numerous professional gigs. If you REALLY want to make a difference. . . then your going to have to stick yours out too. Put your money where your mouth is and find every bug. . . report it openly to this forum and to Steve. Find every glitch and talk about it. You have to pop their bubble dude. Don’t attack. Forget the AM list. . . that place is for the repressed masses. Form a community here that is willing to work WITH Hash inc.

There should be no greater honor than seeing your name listed in the list of bug fixes. And I don’t think there will ever be a better time to catch their true attention than right now.