what the heck is going on with HASH

#281

Originally posted by Raji
[B]oh come on…

:rolleyes: [/B]

Your improperly quoting me. I wasn’t exactly agreeing with the statements Martin made but I was agreeing to to the Idea of fixing A:M.

#282

Well, the only thing promising is what “appears” to be admission that there’s an actual issue.

It kind of reminds me of this:

http://news.com.com/2009-1001-817210.html?legacy=cnet

I guess Martin’s about a year behind Bill.
MS does “seem” to have gotten a bit better…

It’s funny who Martin’s hero is :stuck_out_tongue:

#283

Originally posted by dfaris
[B]quote================================
…What about all of us that have version 9 and 9.5 with all the bugs still in there? are
we all SOL? The out cry on the list is telling you that your explanation about released version
is wrong and people feel like they are getting ripped off. If you fix it in the next release
(that we have to pay another $99 for) and changes cause changes is it not causing changes in that too.
JUST FIX THE VERSION WE HAVE so you don’t have to keep putting it off till the next version.

…
When will hash wake up and see the big picture? We like AM and still think the animation tools
are great but you are not seeing the point. The users want the modeling tools to be improved and the
world class renderer brought up to par with other renderers. If that means no next version for the next year
so what. We don’t want to be kicked from the list for asking about a bug because HASH say its our computer
or we don’t get a reply at all. We don’t want to pay so we can be beta testers for the next release when the bugs in
the version we have are not fixed yet.
[/B]

Well said! amen to that.:applause:

#284

As for our detractors, they fall into three categories:
Religious zealots for other software - I have no argument with their choice or stance.
Truly evil mofos - hell awaits them.
Former A:M users - I hope their outbursts are cathartic.

I believe there are more than three categories of Hash detractors.

What about current users who have been banned for speaking truthfully about critical problems with the software. How about users that really would like to use it, but just can’t get it to freakin’ work on their otherwise rock-stable system!!! What about users that report a critical, work-halting bug through official channels and are never notified that this is a recognized bug, or that it is currently being investigated, or even that it has been fixed. (Project Workspace Corruption bug – feel free to enlighten us on that if you can, Martin.)

A:M generates loyalty and commitment in its adherents.

Adherents? Is he saying A:M is a religion or something? (EDIT: This is possibly a tautology, i.e., true by definition. Adherent can mean loyal and commited follower. Therefore, this statement can be re-stated as, "A:M generates loyalty and commitment in its loyal and commited followers. Of course, I think he means users, not adherents. But hardware and software applications do have adherents. There are Mac users, and then there are adherents. There are MS users, and then there are adherents. Same for Linux. Same for A:M. I have no doubt that Hash has gotten some positive responses. There are always a lot of A:M ‘adherents’ at any given time. Otherwise they wouldn’t be boasting about their profitability right now. The Point that Martin should really be making, if he can, is that there is a high percentage of adherents that have stuck with A:M through the years and are using it now.)

Sometimes, when life and career goals force changes in allegiance, the artist backlashes. I don’t hold it against them. Eventually, I want them to think of A:M like they do their first bicycle: with fondness and respect, and then pass it on to
someone who needs it.

Career goals? Like maybe the goal of finishing something without waiting for the next version?

A parable for Martin:

A child’s father gives his child a tricycle for his birthday that has flat tires and a bent handle-bar, and that tends to tip over when the child gets up to a decent speed on it. When the child comes home crying, with scrapes and bruises, he is told that it is his fault for riding recklessly, and maybe even gets kicked out of the house for whining about it. The tricycle gets patched up a bit by the father, and he promises the child a shiny, new tricycle next year, and the child anticipates his next birthday, hoping to receive a tricycle that works. The other kids on the block have nice tricycles, that perhaps are not as manueverable as the child’s trike would be if it didn’t have flat-tires, but at least the other kids don’t tip over every time they get on their tricycles. Each year the father proudly rolls out a new, ‘better’ tricycle, and then a bicycle, sometimes with accessories that kind of work to a degree, and sometimes with tires that make the bike almost as stable as the bikes the other kids on the street are riding. But then the father gives his child another dangerously unstable bike, and then another. Meanwhile, the other kids have received ten-speeds and motorbikes. Even the kids whose fathers can only afford plain old bikes like his have bikes that don’t wobble and crash like his does. Infuriatingly, the child’s father maintains that the bike he has given his child is the finest bike in existence, and that all of the kids will be riding bikes just like it one day. Finally, the child becomes disillusioned with all of the promises and exagerations, and he snaps. He thinks about giving his old trykes and bikes to needy kids who don’t have anything, but then he decides he wouldn’t give them to his worst enemy. He throws his tricycles and bicycles in the garbage, tells his father to go to Hell, and runs away from home.

Let he that hath ears, hear.

p.s. Ken promises not to make any more provocative statements on the list.

Now if Martin will promise to do the same…

BTW, it seems to me that the business strategy of simply creating something that looks good enough to entice newbies into buying it, with no intention of actually creating something that will truly compete with the ‘big’ boys, is clearly stated in Martin’s post. EDIT: OK, maybe only implied.

#285

I’m trying to glean the bottom line to all of this and I think the answer is that Hash can’t deliver on his promises and he knows it. Right now their putting a spin on everything like a politician. They can reverse engineer the hell out of all the packages out there trying to get it right but they won’t. That’s why they are so defensive, because they can’t deliver. To those of you that disagree, where is the proof? Yes, there are some great aspects to the program but all around as a complete package, have they delivered?

I think the answer is no and Hash knows it. That’s why it pisses him off so much to hear people make mention of bugs and issues, he know he can’t do anything to fix it. If he did he would say, "You know, you’re right, we’ll get right on that. It might take a little bit of time, but we will deliver. " Instead you get a bunch of rhetoric.

You get denials and accusations in defense of something none of us understand, which in reality is their hurt pride that they just can’t deliver what they claim to have. They can create the button in GUI and some code that gets close but in reality, it needs a wheelchair and a walker to get it out the door.

I know I’m being harsh but with the admission they could fix it or do it another way would obligate them to deliver on it. Then they would be even deeper in it, because the reality is they can’t. To those who disagree, look at the facts…and ask yourself if they’ve delivered. I open it to anyone who can prove this wrong, I need to know I’m wrong and that its just not another snowjob in this world.

“Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Clause”

Just my .02

#286

From M. Hash:
"because any
changes always cause changes, and users would rather “release” software
remain consistent, even with known errors. All of our major changes go into
the next version, so if you lobby to have something changed, look for it in
the current Alpha/Beta. "

Because changes cause changes!?!? Hello? what?

And what USERS have claimed they want release software to be consistent WITH ITS BUGS and ERRORS!! As in don’t take out the bugs!? LEAVE THE ERRORS IN!

And if WANT BUGS fixed LOOK for them IN THE BETA/ALPHA!?!? Since when did I sign up as an employee to this frickin company?!

WTF!!??:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: The guy IS ON DRUGS! He clearly can’t string a coherent thought together to save his life.

OMG the guy should shut his pie hole.

#287

Dearmad: Hehe, I was just wondering about that myself. Can he honestly believe we would prefer bug-ridden software just so A:M can remain consistent with previous minor releases? Am I missing something here (aside from $300)?

#288

From M. Hash:
"because any
changes always cause changes, and users would rather “release” software
remain consistent, even with known errors. All of our major changes go into
the next version, so if you lobby to have something changed, look for it in
the current Alpha/Beta. "

I think what he is saying is that if they change something to fix it well that might break somthing else and that the users would rather have release software that have all the same bugs and crashes.

HEY MARTIN! FIX THE DAMN SOFTWARE THEN MOVE ON TO THE NEXT VERSION!

#289

I thought that’s what he was saying, and that’s why Martin is full of -bleeeeeep-:shame:

#290

“As for our detractors, they fall into three categories:
Religious zealots for other software - I have no argument with their
choice or stance.
Truly evil mofos - hell awaits them.
Former A:M users - I hope their outbursts are cathartic. A:M
generates loyalty and commitment in its adherents.”

This is just idiotic. This is not an answer to detractors, it’s willfull ignorance of the fact that most of the posters to the thread that eventually lead to the creation of this forum are loyal Hash users who are unhappy with where the product is going and are very unhappy with the rules of the mailing list. Isn’t it strange that most people in this “hate forum” are doing the same thing, in a more open environmnent, that they did on the mailing list, namely ask and answer questions about using hash. Steve’s reaction is, frankly, a bit cultish. And I should know, I’m an Objectivist :stuck_out_tongue:

#291

Well, it also overlooks the fact that a lot of us outcast Heretics are the ones neck deep in projects- we don’t just toy with the program but actually try to use it. I know I’ve been giving it a work out this past year and a half and that’s going to continue for at least another year.

I’m able to seperate the product (AM) from the people… and I’m glad I can because I really DO like the animation tools. I’m even OK with the modelling tools (for the most part), and so far I’m fine with the renderer. Actually, I even could say I like the renderer. It’s a little slow, but I’ve found settings that work for the look im going for.

#292

Have we become that accustomed to crashes that we actually believe its our own fault:

Kevin Sandersen wrote on the list:

That’s great! But I should remind those of you who haven’t bothered to take
the time to fix your own systems, that you should do that first. Just
recently saw a person post to this list a major crash after
installation…turned out it was his system. A new video card fixed his
system problem. Hopefully he’s checking out the rest of his computer. A
woman at my work was experiencing major computer crashes and problems with
mainly Microsoft programs. I tweaked her system with the fixes on my website
http://www.ksanderson.com/amtips.html and her computer experience now is
very stable. I didn’t dream these Windows tips up. They’ve been collected
mainly from reputable sources and proven many times to work. I bet the
majority of problems people have reported on this list could be remedied by
these fixes. Hey, gang, it’s worth trying if you haven’t. Many of us who
report A:M and general stability with older computers have done this and
rarely have problems.

I’m sorry, but that is bs. I am a programmer, and a damn good one. If a program crashes, its the program’s fault. Pretty much all the time. period. There is absolutely no reason for a crash. In any program. You can check return values when allocating memory, check and validate memory contents when accessing memory, check drivers, etc. IT CAN BE AVOIDED.

I laugh when people say that I have to replace my video card. And that should fix the problems. Or remove all other running programs… thats bs. If changing video cards fixes the problem, then the software didn’t correctly verify the video cards capabilities and adapt. If it knew the video card couldn’t handle the software, it can gracefully say so. If killing programs fixes your crashes, then you don’t have enough memory for what you are trying to do. Again the software could check memory allocations before trying to access a bad ptr.

Ok rant off…

#293

Can I have a Amen Brother

Good post walasek

#294

Originally posted by walasek

I laugh when people say that I have to replace my video card. And that should fix the problems. Or remove all other running programs… thats bs. If changing video cards fixes the problem, then the software didn’t correctly verify the video cards capabilities and adapt. If it knew the video card couldn’t handle the software, it can gracefully say so. If killing programs fixes your crashes, then you don’t have enough memory for what you are trying to do. Again the software could check memory allocations before trying to access a bad ptr.

Well… try to spread that info on the mailing list…

I did once take the same standpoint as you on the AM list…
It did not take long untill I got a letter from Steve telling me my subject no was approriate for the list …

Saying it’s someones computers fault is OK on the list but to say it’s not, that’s against the list rules…

#295

Originally posted by walasek
[B]Have we become that accustomed to crashes that we actually believe its our own fault:

I laugh when people say that I have to replace my video card. And that should fix the problems. Or remove all other running programs… thats bs. If changing video cards fixes the problem, then the software didn’t correctly verify the video cards capabilities and adapt. If it knew the video card couldn’t handle the software, it can gracefully say so. If killing programs fixes your crashes, then you don’t have enough memory for what you are trying to do. Again the software could check memory allocations before trying to access a bad ptr.

Ok rant off… [/B]

you seem to forget the FACT that also drivers, operating systems and virus scanners (etc.) are FAULTY software.

if you start checking for every possible failure any OTHER software can generate in yours, you wont be able to be such a damn good programmer anymore. you’ll do nothing else but checking.

in fact most problems with 3d soft are gfx card driver - induced (and dont tell me bull, this is not only a problem in a:m!!) and OS induced (you people are ranting about windows any time, but hash seems a better victim now eh ?).

to those people still whining about being kicked off the list:
you just dont get it do you? even in this thread - which is clearly NOT unbiased - you found plenty reference to the list rules. probably you should blame your kick on some reading disorder.

this will be my last post to this thread because obviously ANY post is useless, you all just keep running in circles.

this will also be my goodbye to CgTalk. seeing how much dis-information, half-information and complete non-sense you can find in this thread takes the credibility of the rest of this whole site to a new low.

thank you for reading this far, though i doubt any of the people adressed DID read this far.

please DONT bother answering as private mails, i dont want to see any more of this bullshit

bye

#296

ZSPider “if” a lot of people are having crashing problems then you can really only come to one conclusion. Bad coding

if it was a minority or limited to a small group then that is different

All that said… I am just trying to picture a company like Newtek or Maxon going through so much effort to silence people… makes you think

#297

zpider: Yes, I’m sure some of A:M’s crashes are due to bugs in other non-Hash software running in the background. But, most of them are not. My system is very stable… I have run many demanding apps on this system without problems. A:M has been one of the few exceptions… It crashes regularly, due to it’s OWN bugs.

#298

like he said

spinnin around the ego-axis :bounce:

it’s sad that some noisy people … :annoyed:
shy away another great plugin-programmer, modeler,… :arteest:

thx alot :hmm:

zpider :beer:

#299

I am also a software developer and sorry, the “check your machine” excuse is way past redemption ( to make an obscure warcraft 3 reference).

It is true that drivers and some stuff can cause your computer to be somewhat more unstable to an extent- but when you can run your other programs pretty well with no crashes, and they exercise your computer very good (play any demanding 3d realtime game for example) your machine should be pretty good.

How come Animation Master is THE buggiest application amongst the decent sized ones that I have EVER seen.

The "it’s your fault’ excuse it’s just that, an excuse. I have seen different 3d programs running on my different configurations I have had throughout my desktop/laptop history and none of them crashes anywhere near as much (by light years) as A:M.

This excuse and insult to the customer has grown truly old.

"you seem to forget the FACT that also drivers, operating systems and virus scanners (etc.) are FAULTY software.

if you start checking for every possible failure any OTHER software can generate in yours, you wont be able to be such a damn good programmer anymore. you’ll do nothing else but checking."

It’s funny how you automatically assume the fault HAS to be in the user/customer (particularly of a programmer, now that can have irony). And what makes you think that we haven’t checked exactly for our machine setups? How come other 3d software runs vastly more stable than A:M on the different machines I have used since I bought the program? How do you explain that?

“in fact most problems with 3d soft are gfx card driver - induced (and dont tell me bull, this is not only a problem in a:m!!) and OS induced (you people are ranting about windows any time, but hash seems a better victim now eh ?).”

Allright so how about this: Go ahead and select Direct 3d and use the software reference driver that is provided by Microsoft. Go ahead. That should be pretty solid- it’s not hardware dependent, all it’s emulated. And see if you crash often (answer: yes you will, I have tried this alfready).

And what the hell a crash because you are UNDOing stuff has to do with graphics drivers anyway?

“to those people still whining about being kicked off the list:
you just dont get it do you? even in this thread - which is clearly NOT unbiased - you found plenty reference to the list rules. probably you should blame your kick on some reading disorder.”

Yeah, everybody is evil and “we” are the saints. Nice going dude.

It’s not like the A:M list doens’t show its own bias… pro comments are very ok even when off topic. Discussing simple workarounds due to bugs is not ok, yet the list is called a “support list.”

Sorry, I am also fedup with that. I sincerely hope Matrin, Steve & Co are going to honestly try to think about what has been happening as a new opportunity to be honest about the issues and truly improve things (and I am inclined to think they are). But I am not in a rush to upgrade to V10 until I see some evidence.

What Martin said about the “detrators” WAS NOT cool. Not even a lot of the so called detractors fall in any of the groups he mentioned.

It’s sad because all of this is actually a great opportunity for him- what do you prefer- that people tell you there are things that are wrong and give you strong hints on what they want or that they say a silent “F. you” and never go back to buy from you?

  • Raist
#300

Ok guys looks like this topic is really starting to flourish. Would you guys like your own forum here on cgtalk? Where you can carry this on as well as other topics.

I honestly think that the A:M community is to “sheltered” by saying that I mean there’s some great work being done that never gets the proper recognition it deserves. And Hash is notorious for not advertising their product

salud

I think that’s a great idea! This would be a great alternative to the AM list.

Do it, man!:bounce: