Originally posted by EROMLIG
“Martins definative reasons why splines are superior” or some such crap.
It was crammed full of disinformation.
Lol damn you weren’t kidding. Just did a quick search on the list database and found this little gem from that post:
Since SubDs have to predefine subdivision, it is simple to zoom-in
close enough to see edge faceting.
Have the guys at hash even read one paper on what subdivision SURFACES are?
This thread is nuts… I stopped using Hash when version 4 proved completely unstable for me. I can’t believe what I’ve read here.
Here’s a quick reccomendation to all you Hash users.
Get someone at Hash Inc. to tell you exactly what components, software, and updates/service packs, you need to create the perfect environment for Hash. Pool your money and build or buy that system and make sure it is up to their spec. Have someone use it and document all the problems. Use that documentation and the maillist/emails from Hash employees as evidence for a class action lawsuit.
Or, just quit using Hash, and make sure to send them a letter stating exactly why you will no longer be using their software.
Personally, I think it would also be very funny if you all starting posting quotes from Hash employee emails or the list. It might not shame them into changing their ways, but at least it’ll make for entertaining reading.
Originally posted by Gnarly Cranium
What the heck is the point of a forum for a program if nobody mentions bugs, problems, and feature requests?
Like I said, it’s NOT a forum. THIS is a forum. The A:M list is for fostering learning of the software and exchanging techniques and ideas, not for debugging the software and ranting. The rules exist to (try to) keep the list productive and focused.
There’s nothing stopping anyone from discussing stability, feature requests, etc. on other lists.
Heya Victor good to see you here, I’ll be contacting you in a day or two for that chair thing if you know what I mean 
Ok guys looks like this topic is really starting to flourish. Would you guys like your own forum here on cgtalk? Where you can carry this on as well as other topics.
I honestly think that the A:M community is to “sheltered” by saying that I mean there’s some great work being done that never gets the proper recognition it deserves. And Hash is notorious for not advertising their product :shrug:
salud
Originally posted by vnavone
[B]Like I said, it’s NOT a forum. THIS is a forum. The A:M list is for fostering learning of the software and exchanging techniques and ideas, not for debugging the software and ranting. The rules exist to (try to) keep the list productive and focused.There’s nothing stopping anyone from discussing stability, feature requests, etc. on other lists. [/B]
looks rigidly marine corps-style. mr. hash would faint at the level of freedom of other official company forums (namely that of newtek’s).
while the rules may exist to try to keep the list productive and focused, there’s the question of whether that’s really happening. i’m speaking in general terms here, since i have not been in a:m list, nor do i use a:m (i’m just trolling 'round :wavey: ). me, i just cannot imagine being productive in an environment that seems stifled with rules and threats of being ‘excommunicated’ if you fail to comply, not only with a rules, but also with judgements of the moderator that interpret that you have broken the rule, and that there is hardly any argument to right yourself within the community.
just reading the posts here, it reminds me of the oppressive days in high school.
i’m not saying the hash doesnt reserve to right to set up a highly discriminating list. what i’m saying is that it does seem like a highly discriminating list, and i feel sorry for him. 
Me too was kicked from the list, but now, sorry this thread… there are always the same answers, can’t we stopp now?
I think, you can do with every software good and bad works, every software has good and bad sites, some more other less. But at the end the artist is used to to something good, also with maya you can do very bad work, I think everybody has to use this software that he like, and let the freedom to others to use other programms.
Originally posted by vnavone
[B]Like I said, it’s NOT a forum. THIS is a forum. The A:M list is for fostering learning of the software and exchanging techniques and ideas, not for debugging the software and ranting. The rules exist to (try to) keep the list productive and focused.There’s nothing stopping anyone from discussing stability, feature requests, etc. on other lists. [/B]
That’s all well and good but it does say the list is for technical support. Judging by what’s being said here, people are getting booted from the list for mentioning crashes, and the extent of Hash’s technical support through the mail list is “Joor computah suxorz.! It’s not our software. No more mail list for you.” For any other company, any other software, you are allowed to talk about stability issues and RFEs on the mail lists without being banned. The company mail lists ARE the proper channel for this discussion, not a public forum or mailist that isn’t directly affiliated with the comapny or it’s software. It seems to me being allowed to freely discuss software issues on the company’s own mail ist would be beneficial to Hash the company, the software, and it’s users.
Seriously, check the official mail lists for XSI, Maya or Houdini, check the official company forums. Users talk about bugs and stability issues constantly on all of them, and employees of the companies are keen to get issues resolved. When a legitimate bug is discovered, the reps will submit the bug, and propse a work around until the issue can be resolved. The comapny reps are civil and professional as are the users, even when dealing with people who are ignorant or obviously using pirated software. It’s customer service 101 the customer is right even when they are wrong, and sometimes, even when thy aren’t a customer.
Hash is free to run their company or their mailist however they see fit, but their current course is doing them much harm. This thread and related discussions have broken out on just about every major CG forum. It’s going to hurt their business. Good luck to them.
Thank you for your interest in the animaster
mailing list.
To complete your subscription to the animaster list,
please send an email to someguy@hash.com with the
following information:
Your full name
Your email address
A brief statement of your interest in the topic of this
mailing list.
Applications will be considered by the list administrator
based on the information you provide.
-ListCaster-
hmm you can’t just join up
Wow… I’m not an AM user, and I’ve never been to this list, but those rules look SERIOUSLY fishy to me…
-Do Not complain about list content. If you have complaints or suggestions, send them directly to hash@hash.com
-No complaining or whining on the list.
-No distribution of misinformation.
Those don’t even sound like proper list rules. Obviously they’re signs of trouble that’s come before, and a snitty warning against anybody bringing more. If I see rules like this on a forum-- scuse me, um… message list of unknown distinction-- I tend to steer away from it entirely in the first place, knowing it will be trouble.
MCronin is right, if it’s supposed to be for technical support, the notion of outlawing the open discussion of bugs is absurd. Obviously many of these rules exist only because they are specifically trying to keep people from saying a darn thing about them. Counterproductive and useless. I can’t help but wonder what the heck they ARE supposed to discuss? Does it encompass anything at all more meaningful than coddling the egos of the guys in charge there, or what? I can’t comprehend what they are trying to accomplish with all this… it doesn’t make any sense. :shrug:
I think ggg has got it pegged. They want to control ‘their’ list. The best thing that Hash could do now would be to boot the “Administrator” off the list and invite everyone back to resolve this whole issue, if it can be. Some of the best advertising a company can get is through work that people do on their own, letting the software sell itself through the users out there. My take on it is, Hash benefitted from the free advertising (unpaid) work that artists did with their software (like any other company does) and now they apparently feel that those artists that supplied the free advertising just aren’t needed anymore. The ‘list rules’ are like a bad law, just because its a law that doesn’t make it right. Its like a lesson in government. You petition the government (Hash) to change the law (software, list rules). If they refuse after several attempts and you can’t get satisfaction, then your choices are to move to another country (software provider), replace your representatives to get rid of the bad law(invest in another program) or rebellion (throw all of your Hash CDs into the river). Who is to blame for the rebellion? I’m going to go get a torch!
Talk about good timing. I came here to post the suggestion of forming a good alternetive to the A:M list and I see lildragon has already offered it to us. I think it’s a great idea since CGtalk seems to be a very well used site. There is an A:M forum starting on CGchannel and it may be a good place, but where ever it is, it needs to be high profile so it will take off. There are other places for A:M discussion like Yahoo Groups, but we need 1 really good place to congrigate. It would be great to have a flourishing open A:M community, not like the stiffling A:M list. Another thing you are not allowed to do on the A:M list is mention other forums, but there are ways around that. Is there a way to pole people on this, or do we just get it going and see how it turns out?
Looking forward to the alternative.
Cheers, Graham
Ok guys looks like this topic is really starting to flourish. Would you guys like your own forum here on cgtalk?
That would be great! I’m all for it.:applause:
-bRiAn
Originally posted by lildragon
Ok guys looks like this topic is really starting to flourish. Would you guys like your own forum here on cgtalk? Where you can carry this on as well as other topics.
Yes. I think being surrounded by so many of the CG-Talk folk will help AM users improve, plus it will get them greater recognition of their peers.
Gnarly Cranium wrote:
Those don’t even sound like proper list rules. Obviously they’re signs of trouble that’s come before, and a snitty warning against anybody bringing more. If I see rules like this on a forum-- scuse me, um… message list of unknown distinction-- I tend to steer away from it entirely in the first place, knowing it will be trouble.
I still love his “proper list rules”… Who determines what the list rules are - the list administrator. Who enforces the list rules - the list administrator. Who owns the list - hash. It is as plain and simple as this - “If you don’t follow the list rules - you will get booted”. No one said this was a democracy for what should/should not get on the list. Is it a democracy on what features are added to a product? No. Do you complain like this when you subscribe to a “moderated” list where every post is examined before being published, and yours isn’t posted?
I’m not saying that they “shouldn’t” have a forum, user feedback, bug reports, or the like. I am saying that they have explicitly established what the list is for. I think they need a forum, user feedback, bug reports, etc if they are to survive. It is essential. But all of you complaining about getting booted for violating the list rules cracks me up.
I fully support encourage the admin here at CG Talk to make a forum/group here for AM, where we can discuss these necessary topics. My only hope is that Hash will look at it once in a while (we could always send them links to popular discussions), and possibly even post… I think it would be a great way of communicating to Hash.
There seems to be so much talent in the AM (or former AM) ranks. Has anyone seriously considered creating a new 3D software program?
Originally posted by giantkiller
There seems to be so much talent in the AM (or former AM) ranks. Has anyone seriously considered creating a new 3D software program?
Yup. But. . . easier said than done.
There seems to be so much talent in the AM (or former AM) ranks. Has anyone seriously considered creating a new 3D software program?
Yes, but unfortunately I have no programming skills and I suck at math. 
Originally posted by walasek
I fully support encourage the admin here at CG Talk to make a forum/group here for AM, where we can discuss these necessary topics. My only hope is that Hash will look at it once in a while (we could always send them links to popular discussions), and possibly even post… I think it would be a great way of communicating to Hash.
LOL! A great way of communicating to Hash, as opposed to speaking to everyone who actually works for Hash at once DIRECTLY through their own mail list. Forcing a 3rd party to set up a forum to deal with support issues for your software is ridiculous. The fact is it clearly states on the mail list rules page that the list is there for technical support. Based on what has been said, most of these guys who have been booted from the list have a legitimate axe to grind with Hash.
On the one hand, Hash says the list is there for technical support, but if you actually ask for real support on the list, you get ridiculed by a snotty administrator and banned. Really, companies shouldn’t be banning anyone from their lists unless the user is a persistant pest or doing something illegal. If they don’t like what someone has posted to the list, the admin can deal with it through private email with the user. But banning anyone the first time they say something the Admins don’t like… eventually there won’t be anyone left to ban, or anyone left using the software to complain about bugs.
If you want to see how a good company with good support deals with users, you should take a look at the Renderman support forums. There’s a guy on there who was having trouble with MTOR and he asked about it. After a few messages back and forth with a Pixar rep, it came down to him actually posting his cracked license on the forum. The response from the Pixar employee was “There seems to be a problem with your license file, give us a call on our support line so we can help you out.” The guy tells the Pixar rep to just forget it. They didn’t ban him from the forum, didn’t even give him a hard time, and he continues to ask questions there and get help… Now that’s support.
I have actually considered it - I play around a lot with Game Engines and such. But the problem is that there is “so much” in AM, it would be a long time before anything was even close.
I would probably move onto another program if the cost was right, and it was easy to use. That is basically what got me with AM. I just do this stuff for fun, and am not willing to spend $500+ dollars on any program.
If you think of all the basic features of AM, there actually is quite a lot of things (whether they work or not is another story). But modeling, texturing, bones, muscle, animating, lights, camera, render options, etc (you get the picture). It would be better if we all pooled our money, bought out AM, and fixed the bugs for a year…
Originally posted by MCronin
If you want to see how a good company with good support deals with users, you should take a look at the Renderman support forums. There’s a guy on there who was having trouble with MTOR and he asked about it. After a few messages back and forth with a Pixar rep, it came down to him actually posting his cracked license on the forum. The response from the Pixar employee was “There seems to be a problem with your license file, give us a call on our support line so we can help you out.” The guy tells the Pixar rep to just forget it. They didn’t ban him from the forum, didn’t even give him a hard time, and he continues to ask questions there and get help… Now that’s support.
Have I ever compared Hash to another company? No. This is how they run their company. Would I run my company this way? No. But I don’t get to make the decisions - neither do you. Hash does. Your decision is basically whether or not to buy the software or not. If you think they broke their licensing agreement with you, then you can try to get your money back.
I really want you to understand this: I am not supporting Hash’s business policies around customer feedback, bug reports, enhancement requests, crashes. I think these need to be addressed by Hash if the company is to move ahead of where they are now. It is obvious they are loosing loyal customers/supporters and word of mouth (the thing that got them to where they are today), will swing around and bite them in the @ss. What I do support is that Hash can ban you from their list for breaking the list rules…It’s their list.
About the Pixar cracked license: thats just bad business sense… allowing cracked licenses sends a bad message to all.