WETA TRIBUTE: Lessons Learned Lets talk (And I do have some concenrs)

#27

Just to clarify, I was talking about not making the challenge too restrictive, nothing about the basemesh. I enjoy it being hard. :smiley:

#28

that’d be awesome…

#29

Ok lets make the list unique this time for the 30 days 30 models
Any ideas?

#30

Fire Hydrant
Human Head
Frog/toad
Computer mouse
Michael Jackson Jacket (the red one with the zippers)
Toy Car
Gun

I got lots more but I’ll give everyone a chance to reply :slight_smile:

-rage

#31

digital camera
game controller (ie dualshock 3, 360 controller, wii remote, N64 controller etc etc)
piano
iron (man…lol)
hand
foot
printer
guitar
laptop
pen
vacuum cleaner
human
dog
cat
helicopter
boat
space shuttle
potplant
tv
lamp

some of them are pretty generic though…lol…

one last thing about the basemesh issue…how about this? basemeshes are allowed, you can either choose to use them or opt not to…if you use one you have to say so in your WIP and final entry…and then if people are so inclined as to vote down someone who used one they can if they want…
i see basemeshes as a tool and its not the tools that make an artist, its what they do with them…

#32

I may have a compromise for the base mesh issue.
If you use a base mesh your entry would be able to run for any category on the voting thread, but it would not qualify for the Best model of the challenge.

#33

I guess Roberto really made his point. If anyone use a premade base model that should not be elegiblefor the best model entry. I partecipate to HCM since competition 4., I’m not a pro and I know my limits. I’m fast modelling architectural and props, and I love detailing it, while for me it take ages to make a correct base mesh for human (with correct topo), that why I try to partecipate to HCM in organic and I always not finish one… but this is also the way I will learn (I hope, one of my favorite quote is Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm

so I guess to improve and hone skills always…
About the texture also that has been a Issue… for me the best will be

  • mesh from start
  • no texture in final
  • just a clay
  • the most WIP the better

this not ensure people from cheating (for example I can post different subdivision of a model I alredy have or old WIP), but that can be a start… I don’ like cheating neither people that cheat

if really people want to use a basic model that should be THE SAME for everyone, like in the lighting challenge. We have one scene and we apply texture+lights etc.
Also lately the forum is becomeing too much “competitive”. Come on guys is to have fun.

Just my two cents, and as always thanks to Roberto for being the host :slight_smile:

#34

I’ve only done one of these challenges, but here goes.

Base mesh I have mixed thoughts. Probably should be adjusted per challenge - working of a list or concepts maybe the base should be started from scratch since you know what you should be making, whereas a more free topic (make whatever you want from this topic) would benefit from a quick starting point that you could retopo later on.

If I was working on something human or could use a human starting point and base meshes werent allowed then I would start from a sphere or Zsphere/sketch(I hate redoing human base meshes). Where would this stand in the rules? Really they are just computer generated bases that I’m pulling and pushing to get what I want.

I think with the beauty render, textures and good lighting should be allowed. Its very important to display your models properly and know afew quick setups to do that, so this is good practice imo… This is a modelling challenge tho and I can understand why some people dont want it… was looking forward to experimenting with some fishy like shaders in the next challenge :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway, hope it stays fun and not too strict :slight_smile:

#35

I definitely disagree with that, simply because you want people to just your modeling alone. If you wanted to do a good render with textures, then by all means go ahead and do that - but don’t post it on the final entry page (unfair advantage).

#36

I think the base mesh issue is something that needs to be either, allowed or not allowed. There is no compromise. Having some models eligible for certain awards and other models not, would get way too confusing for voters. To me, hardcore modeling means just that. Hardcore. Which means no base mesh to start. Also, modeling does not include textures and nothing more than just a basic 3-point light set-up. You could even take some examples from the material websites like MR Materials or Vray Materials and require everyone to use a stock studio for the model presentation. This way everyone has the same lighting, and same set-up and each model can be judged on the model only. This isn’t the texturing challenge or the lighting challenge. Now, if you wanted to rename this to the Hardcore Everything challenge, then you could include textures and custom light rigs.

Personally, I think this needs to be a command decision from only Roberto. He runs the challenge, he makes the rules. The base mesh issue, as well as the other issues, cannot be solved by committee as the opinions are far too varied. So just make a decision, yes or no. No matter what you do you are going to piss some people off. If you say Yes to base meshes, you’ll lose some people. If you say No to base meshes, you’ll lose some people. You simply can’t please everyone. So just grab these challenges by the ho-joe’s and lay the law down.

#37

I can understand that, textures would make it harder to judge the modelling alone. Still think the beauty render should be alittle bit more creative - do something with the lighting and composition.

Whatever Roberto decides for the final is fine with me :stuck_out_tongue: Like you said, you can always do what ever you like and post it in the Wip thread for CnC.

cheers.

#38

Surely the base mesh thing is besides the point of the two real basic undertakings of a good modeller: Form/Art/Design Outcomes and Topology/Technical/Functional Outcomes.

I like CG society because there’s a balance between common oppositional opinion platforms like the Industry-Time-is-Money vs. Beauty-for-its-Own-Sake debate, or the By-The-Book-No-NGons-Topo vs. Whatever-Works-For-The-Final-Image debate.

I think it’s the site of conflict that’s so important, rather than any individual platform, because it helps ferment peoples opinions and drive discussion.

We vote democratically here too by a panel of peers. If a certain method of presenting your meshes serves to enhance your vote then that too is something you can learn from the forums. In life if you ignore a critical analysis of what other people do to succeed then you are only setting yourself up for disappointment. It is a good thing that there is more to learn here than just topology.

In this light I think it would be sad to see sculpting or use of base meshes become some frowned upon tool, or vice-versa, in a place where learning and enjoyment are the fundamental rewards for all involved.

By all means add new voting categories (where appropriate) to encourage people to explore things such as new takes on base topology for the human male form, I’m all for challenging people, but by making it compulsory we’d only be estranging part of the community who drive us to better results.

or like, that’s what i think :slight_smile:

#39

I think cutting the voting categories down to three possiblities.
Hardcore Model
Beauty Render
Best Project

The HM would be the best model, with a standard setup that is downloadable, podium, lights and basic backing. Everybody can enter this, and has to use the default setup to position their grey model in.

Beauty can come after the restrictions of the HM are met, where you can take your HM and texture and light it. It is still rendered on the podium with basic backing but your allowed to texture the podium, this includes displacement.

Best project would be one that encompasses everything that one would expect to see. Concepts, original base mesh build, sculpting, posing, texturing, lighting, render passes and Final output.

This takes everything into consideration and I think there should be 3 winners in every challenge instead of one.

#40

I think cutting the voting categories down to three possiblities.
Hardcore Model
Beauty Render
Best Project

i like the idea of a best project award (its kind of the WIP award but sounds better…lol) and the beauty render one as well, but as always i have a few thoughts:

the ‘beauty’ renders can include texturing but only:

  • displacement maps
  • bump/normal maps
  • spec maps

no diffuse maps, as the idea is to show off the modeling. nsb illustrated it perfectly

that’s a kick ass beauty render and there’s not a diffuse map in sight, it survives on the modeling and presentation alone…

#41

I disagree with a downloadable default light setup and podium. The only reason is that not every model can be best shown with the same setup. As an example, I use Modo and the rendering engine (especially lights) relies heavily on real world scale and physics. If you have a toy car with a light rig, then use that same light rig for, say, a person, it isn’t a simple matter of scaling up the light rig. You scale up a light by 100%, and it’ll be a100% more intense. If you scale down the human, the light won’t have the power to illuminate all the details.

Also, the podium should be something that fits with the model. I wouldn’t want to display my sea turtle on an escalator :slight_smile:

I would be down with a traditional 3 point setup, though, that we could show as a screenshot if it were required.

-rage

#42

hmm I have to agree that a downloadable light rig won’t work. For one you’d have to make one for each package out there since there people here with every possible program and render engine in existence

Personally I wouldn’t bother with render requirements - setting a separate category for a Beauty Render as suggested above would solve that.

#43

I like this idea.
(And btw Guys I am reading all your posts)

#44

I’ve got to say, I use base-meshes all the time for my stuff. Why re-invent the wheel? Why not have, if you do use a basemesh, you post a wire of the basemesh and state that YOU made the base mesh and that you didn’t get it from somewhere else.

I really believe in your final beauty render being a clay. You can use bump and normal maps, but NO DIFFUSE TEXTURES. I’ve seen it several times where a model that wasn’t that brilliant trounced the competition as it had pretty textures and a nice V-Ray render. Seen it too many times in fact.

Can we also make sure that the rules that are stuck down are adhered to? In one comp, it was specified that a production ready model had to be supplied. A lot of people posted multi-million poly Z-Brush sculpts as a finished item. They looked great, but all the people who did follow the rules and posted wires of their 5K poly models with normal maps on got shunted to the bottom of the pile.

Oh, someone PM me with who followed a tutorial WTH?

#45

Great Metaphor, but let me extend it a little bit:

If you build a car, you can use existing wheels. Especially if the wheels remain the same. This works great for production, but what if there was a car challenge where you had to build a nex car from scratch? Then you’ll have to do the wheels from scratch because they are as much a part of the whole car like the body or engine.

But if a base mesh is alloud for sculpting, then it is alloud for a traditionally sculpted model. And in the latter it’s really obvious how unfair it is toward those who don’t have a good base mesh.

#46

It’d be nice if people took the time to comment on the final entries. I mean it’s cool that they vote, but that’s essentially saying they pick the model they like best. Long wip threads aren’t encouraged because of space concerns or some such, that’s fine. But since the point of this exercise is to improve skills and it’s always helpful to know what folks think, I think people should be encouraged to critique or comment on the final entries.