Hi guys!
I’m working on a new anim of an orc and a night-elf battling it out with weapons and fists. Trying to incorporate as many different fighting styles into a short scene, I guess.
Anyway, here is the WIP, please do let me know if you have any comments and feedback. Thanks in advance!
It’s looking great! I’m look foward to see how it develops ^^.
I just have one comment that might help… I think that their movements are too much alike. You have an elf and an orc. The elfs are known for their elegance in the way they move and battle, so, just put some more fluid sensation to their dogdes. And the orc I think is more problematic, since they’re body mass makes them more clumsy and brutal. Just look the small scene in the World of Warcraft 1 opening where and orc fight an elf, and try to fell the impact of their attacks. =]
Well, I think that’s it. It’s looking great thus far, and I hope that it keeps getting better! o/
I totally agree with you, Adam.
The reason I made them orc and elf was to try to contrast different fighting styles. To that effect, I tried to make the orc slow and brutish, with simple powerful swings (and some plain ol’ nastiness towards the end), and the elf with more agile and flashy attacks… like all Crouching Tiger and stuff.
However, as you pointed out, I don’t think I quite succeeded in this regard. I probably should’ve given the elf a smaller and thinner sword… I just can’t imagine him twirling a big thing like that right now. That said, is it just me or are all swords in WoW over-sized and massive like Frostmourne? I did hope that his spinning attacks with the dagger and the jump slash somehow made up for it though.
I’ll see what I can tweak for this scene, but I might redo another series of fighting shots with more contrasting fighting styles after this.
Hey drewpan o/
Well, I read your post and I really don’t think that you need to start all over again. The scene is looking godd, really, and although I pointed out the problem with the fighting styles, it does not mean that it’s not perceptible. It’s just that there’s not much of a contrast in timing, especially in antecipation. I spent more time looking over and over again to find out those specific parts that i don’t fell that are that much of strong.
In the first scene, I you can perceive well the need for contrast, as you see the first attack, and how their antecipation has the same timing. Actually, the orc is a little faster, so, maybe if he would take more time to antecipate would help. I think about the weight of the weapon, as the axe with the orc should be much more heave, than the elf’s sword (by the way, I think that the axe’s size is ok, but the elf’s sword is really in a strange shape. Not the actual range of it, but it looks like more of a paladin medieval sword, not the elegance espected from them… think about a sabre from a Fencing sport.)
Anyway, in the first scene I would consider to put some more contrast in their movement as well in their timing.
I like the second scene, specially the reaction of the orc. His rage looks convincing, although, again, I do fell that he turns too fast. As for the elf, his moves are nice, and for him to jump over the orc does look like something and skilled elf would do, so I think it’s great ^^.
The third scene looks ok, but I think that some tweeks on the poses might help. I dug out a video from Soul Calibur 4, where a strong and big char fights a smaller and faster one. Observe how their timing is not that different from each other, but their poses make Astaroth look much stronger and solid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fytlk6fCb4
And the fourth scene is my favorite =D. The nasty moves of the orc do match his attitude, and they look strong too =] Nothing superficial I can comment on that ^^.
Well man, as far as it goes, i’m loving the scene. I made all this comments to help you improve the scene and work it to make it look even more awesome. I felt somehow that my post might have disencouraged you, and sorry if you felt this way, but as far as it looks, it’s great ^^. I want to see it grow, so keep with the same scene. Make it better and work it, until it comes to a point that you’re confortable. If you start all over, maybe you won’t have the pacience and will do it all over again, so, keep up with this one that thus far is looking very fine ^^.
And finally, I’m actually a novice studing animation. My practial skill is actually far bellow yours, so, I’m in no place to over jugde something here. I might even be wrong in most of my comments, but well, I’m giving some comments for it to look more awesome and to give you will to keep polishing it ^^. I’m sure it’ll look great with some minor corrections ^^.
Omg, such a large post. Sorry for that XD. Congratulations man and keep up the good work o/.
Thanks for the very lengthy and specific feedback, Adam!
Please don’t hesitate to give comments and opinions like that. I don’t find it discouraging at all, but critical feedback like that really lights a fire under my ass and it psyches me to go out and improve my animations. I’m going to address as many of those notes you gave me, and let’s see if I can knock out another pass tonight before I have to go back to work tomorrow.
I like that sample of Astaroth… someday I’ll figure out how to rig and constrain weapons in a way that allows the characters to spin and twirl their weapons.
Here’s a new pass that I got out last night. It’s not quite there, but I thought I’d just put up my progress.
[vimeo]25411187[/vimeo]
I’m trying to get some more realistic and weighty axe swings for the orc, and I’m playing around with that part a lot. I like the new motions, but I’m not satisfied with it though - they just feel off and too uniform somehow. I intend to just capture some key poses, and completely redo the inbetweens of that first two swings.
The elf’s launch in the head kick also needs work, I think. I’m gonna redo his spine arching for sure. Will work on those again either tonight or tomorrow night.
In the meantime, are there any other issues that you think I should try to resolve?
For more weight on the axe, let the hand lead the action while the axe head drags along. Find reference of log splitting.
Yes your swings are looking linear, as the orc swings down, the spacing of the axe should increase.
Hey drewpan o/
Well, just saw your new pass and I see that the Soul Calibur reference really helped. I see some more brutal movements in the orc, especially in the first scenes. The very exagerated reaction of the elf helps to bring that impact shine some more. a change that can be perceived throughout the whole animation, so… it’s better than the first pass.
But it’s still with some problems, and the advices of desmondying are really great. It’s mostly a problem with timing and spacing, some actions are faster than they should. I remeber that cinematics from Starcraft 2 called “Old Rivals”. Zeratul’s moves there are really slow, and that’s mostly because of his old age and body mass. So, I keep thinking that some more contrast would help a lot to distinct those characters. I feel that the first scene got many improvements, but the others not so much. For example, see the scene that the orc slams the elf’s head in the wall. Those two slams are too quick, somehow that looks unreal for me, specially for a orc.
But well, that’s just my opinion. ^^ I don’t have much time right now to actually look and discuss some things further mroe, but with the next time i’ll try to study those points with you more deeply =]
Until then, keep up the good work man o/
Thanks, Desmond and Adam!
With that advice about the axe swings, I’m sure the next pass will look a lot better with a greater emphasis on weight.
I’ve been concentrating on the first two shots, so I haven’t really touched the fourth shot with the head slams. I’ll be sure to retime those slams a bit and give it a few more frames each. I do agree that they feel a bit too zippy at the moment.
Hope I can finalize the axe swings in the next pass!
Hi guys!
I’ve gotten a new pass out! Hopefully this addresses that dreaded weighted and hefty axe issue that that was really bringing it down before. I’ve also slowed down the orc attacks throughout the scene, so hopefully that should contrast the two characters a bit more.
Here it is:
[vimeo]25596604[/vimeo]
There’s definitely better flow with the attack sequence. The deflection of the sword and it hitting the ground looks really nice.
I’m kinda iffy with the choice of having both weapons fly off close to the camera; reminds me of over-selling “3d movies” with things flying towards you every other scene. Just the sword would’ve been good.
The timing of the first strike is also a little off. The axe fall took a while before it stopped after striking the sword. Instead of the axe getting deflected or him deliberately going for a second attack, it looked more like the orc tried to slow down his attack halfway. Like if you were waving a heavy object up and down.
Attack-wise, if would be more efficient if instead of following the same arc up and down, you get the axe to sweep slightly to the side after the strike. This motion should divert some of the forward momentum and help you in pulling the axe back up without having to slow it down first.
Thanks, RustEdge! Those were pretty good points, and I’m gonna think about that. I originally intended only for the sword to fly past the camera, but then I included the axe to 1) really sell the notion that he lost his axe, and 2) help smooth the transition from one shot to the other.
As for the first axe clash, yeah I did feel that it was a bit weird too, but couldn’t work out why. Your observation and suggestion really helped put some perspective on that, so I’m gonna try your advice.
Thanks!
Here’s a new pass, along with a question for you guys.
[vimeo]25894348[/vimeo]
I’ve added some slo-mo elements into the scene, and now I’m debating whether to include some zooms for some more dramatic camera angles. My concern is that since I’m primarily doing this for a demo-reel, should I show more of the animation, or should I gun for tighter and nicer camera angles, which might crop out some of the animation - like the footwork for example.
What do you guys think?
Proper blocking within the camera’s view is part of animation, so I’d say it’s fine adding some zooms. Right now you lose a lot of intensity of the battle because of your camera moves. The camera moves too constantly. It doesn’t feel like you’re actually there in the battlefield watching them fight.
I have an issue with the slow-mo moment though. The camera speed before, during, and after the slo-mo is pretty constant. It makes it feel like the characters have slowed down but everything else around them feels like they’re moving at a normal rate.
Thanks, RustEdge!
I’m probably going to redo the camera in the first shot, and try to do more close-ups and cuts instead of pans/tilts.
As for the slo-mo, I made sure to stretch out the camera’s keyframes exactly the same way as the character keyframes, so I’m not sure why it still looks constant. Hopefully this will be somewhat changed with the camera zoom tweaks.
Here’s a new pass, with new camera angles and a new ending shot (now with dialogue!)
Question: The final head stomp (x498) - slo-mo or no slo-mo?
[vimeo]26092382[/vimeo]
Hey Drewpan o/ how you’re doing? =]
So, I was unable to take some time to reply the topic, but i kept looking for the animations when I could. Sorry for now too I cannot write a more extensive post, but i can point out some tips =].
At this point I think you consider the animation ready, so, I’m not going to comment about it for, really, it’s looking nice for it’s purpose and if it was to make more changes, it’s better to go for a new scene by now =].
But, you would want to consider the focus of you doing this. These last posts are more about the cinematography of the scene then to the actual movement of the action. So, if your plan is to get an overall nice and dinamic scene, it’s ok, but as you asked if the camera movements would take the attention of the animation, the aswer is yes. It’s not something that reeeeally is distracting, but again, it depends on your focus.
And now about the scene… I think it’s looking great thus far =]. I must agreed with rustedge for that slow motion does look weird. It’s not about stretching the keyframes, because the beauty of the slow motions is to capture the inifitely small movements we do. I became very aware of that in an awesome scene from the movie: “cloudy with a chance of meatballs” (unfortunally i could not find it on youtube), but the focus is to show that for a split of second, the main character sees his father in the middle of the crowd watching his failure. It’s really, really detailed in micromovements, and thus reside it’s beauty. Details.
So, maybe creating some extra poses for more extreme and dramatic look might help. For the last scene, I think that would look nice a slow motion, but only if it maintains the brutal impact of it =].
That’s it man, sorry if I could not be more specific… i’m actually pretty ill and must return to bed now o/
Good work and keep up the good work man o/
Thanks, Adam! Always appreciate your feedback and comments. Moreso since you’re so ill.
As for the focus on cinematography, well… it’s mainly cos I haven’t gotten much feedback lately about the animation at all. Most (if not all) of the feedback I’ve gotten from folks at this point has been about the cinematography, so that’s pretty much what I’ve been addressing. If there were any more animation issues, I’d be sure to resolve those too.
Though I think you’re right… at this point I might just clean up some camera placements, throw in a light or two to counter all that backlighting, and then call it a day and start on something new.
I’ve got a dramatic pantomime that that I’d REALLY like to get out of my head and onto the screen.
Get well soon, Adam!