voting bug?

#61

Well, I have no vested interest in the method of star ratings because I don’t submit to the forums but votes too far removed from the average can be filtered out by just changing the calculation that averages them.

There are equations to do this properly (I programmed some once but I’m damned if I can remember what they’re called and they’re probably OTT here) but a simple way to do it would probably be to take the average (after a certain thresshhold number of votes have been registered) then take the average again between the previous average minus (say) 1.4 and the previous average + 1.4 (tweak as needed*)

Basically this would eliminate values too far removed from the general consensus instead of making them part of the average.

Example - filtering out 1-star bombers…

Say a piece has votes of 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 4, 1, 1
The average = 3.625, which has been brought down by the 1s
The filtered average = average of values between (3.625+1.4) and (3.625-1.4)
the average of values between 5.025 (5) and 2.225 =
average of 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 4 = 4.5, which is more like it

And filtering “best friend” voting…

Say a piece has votes of 2, 3, 3, 3, 1, 3, 5, 5, 5
Average = 3.33, which is too high because of the unlikely 5s
Filtered average = average of values between 4.73 and 1.93 =
average of 2, 3, 3, 3, 3 = 2.8, which sounds about right
(it didn’t take notice of the miserable 1, either)

This geeky method might help if someone is thinking of programming solutions, as it’s only the average calculation that needs to be tweaked and not the entire process, and it does tend to filter out people who are likely voting the wrong things for the wrong reasons.

Of course, if the number of asshats outnumber the proper voters then the system won’t work, but then again neither will any other.

  • Geeky note: you could make this dynamic based on the first average to give better filtering
#62

yes m8 but what gives YOU the right to downrate something to a value that YOU think is fare…when x other users voted corectly and got that post to a certain value. Just cause YOU think it’s worth 3 stars…what makes YOU think YOU have the right to virtually slap all the other users in the face by ignoring their ratings and push forward YOUR point of view. YOU are not any more important than any other users. As long as the majority votes as they think is fare…you should do the same. The first and foremost thing this new rating system must do is eliminate the anonymous status and also weed out the ones using multiple accounts. If you want to have a clean conscience you should rate correctly…as in…you think it’s worth 3 stars…vote 3 stars…not one star to get it to go down to 3 stars. I’m in shock that you actually think you exibited a moral behavior.

#63

But umm… there’s no written or unwritten rule that says if a image has for example 4 stars and most users rate it with 4 stars. Me as a user have no obligation to vote the same as everyone else as my opinion about a image may differ dramatically from everyone else’s opinion about that certain image. I may only think the image is worth one or two stars instead of four. I should be allowed to vote as I think and not as everyone else wants me to vote just to fit into the crowd. Everyone’s opinion about a image is different, so let them vote as they wish even if it gives a image poor ratings. So what… it’s just an image! perhaps it kills the creative spirit of a professional overpaid artist if they get low ratings on a couple of their images. If so… it’s a bigger problem with the artists personality and it’s not a problem with CGTalk’s ratingsystem.

The problem with unfair behaviour could be resolved with other methods, even by completly remove the ratingsystem from the forum. It’s a drastic move but then we would no longer have threads like this one and CGTalk staff’s job would be alot easier.

/ Magnus

#64

you missed the point completelly. He actually said that he thought the image was worth 3 stars…but he voted 1 just to get the rating down further than a 3 star rating would. So he is bassically saying…all of you before me are a bunch of idiots…i’m gonna save the day and bring the rating to what I think it’s worth. If you actually think the image is worth 1 stars…then by all means vote 1 star…but don’t lower your vote just because the image has a higher rating than you would give to it. You don’t have the right. You CAN do it but that doesn’t make it a right/moral choyce

#65

FMMirel: What gives you the right to put words in my mouth?

I have done as I said on a few occations. And those have been really blatant misratings.

If there’s good work that never gets any stars, why should I tolerate technically and aesthetically inferior pieces that seem to be going with five stars. And not because there’s something in those I can’t see but because of lame*sses tampering with the voting system.

In all the cases I have had a few pages of comments from other users screaming “Not five star work!” to back me up on my decision.

I was and I still am talking day and night differences here. If a piece is worth three stars to me, I will probably give it three, no matter how many it has when I see it. If it’s not worth three to me and I can be certain it’s not just me, but has five when I see it, I give it just one.

In my mind I still think I exhibit moral behaviour. My motive is not to “let them have it” but to help other people not to waste their time as I did.

#66

Keep it civil folks. You are taking this thing way to seriously.

#67

haha look at all the chaos messing up the voting system has caused. jk.

#68 
like i said....if you're going to be a vigilante in this case....you are not doing the right thing....how do you know that you hold the absolute truth and you have the answer. What makes you better if you give 1 star to a 3 star piece than the ones that give 5 instead of 3?...tell me.

Do you actually want me to read your post back to you? You're warping what you previously said m8...and it's not flying with me.....you said you thought it was worth 3 stars....and you gave it 1....like i said....if you think it's worth one....vote one....2....vote 2.....etc....that's the whole purpose of a voting system for gods sake. Vote your mind....not in compensation.
I can totally understand your frustration with some artwork but....i'm just trying to say that the civil thing and the first step towards a correct voting system must come from the users. Don't just add to the unfairness. Two wrongs don't make a right.  

khendar it was not my intention to insult anybody....as a matter of fact...this is the last post i'll make in this thread....and if i offended you Joat...i'm truly sorry.No use in continuing. I think i made my point...and i think Joat agrees with me to some extent. The last thing i'm going to say even if i said it already....eliminate anonymous ratings
#69

@FMMirel: What is your right to say he shouldn’t use the vote for what he thinks is right?:argh:

The principle of any voting system is that the voter has the right to use his vote freely, whatever the reasons behind it.

The fact that he (as everyone else) has only one vote ensure that no real abuse can take place.

#70

Well actually (and I’m puzzling myself here because there are few things I care less about than votes) the usage of the vote is generally taken to be the value an individual puts on that particular work. That’s why sites commonly ban people who consistently vote 5 for their mates, or consistently vote 0 or 1 on works clearly deserving of more. Much like you can’t post what you want in the forums, you are meant to use your vote responsibly and in keeping with the spirit of the community.

All this is basically common sense, although I personally would be happy to see the ratings and “trophy” system disappear completely as I can’t see how it’s helpful.

#71

Sorry but this new “Voting”-System is pointless.
Yes, there have been low-voters in the old system but those guys appeared in every thread so kind of a balance was restored.
Only 5 stars is absolutely senseless as it doesn´t allow true masterpieces to stand out.

Just to give you an example:
We have developed an own voting system on http://www.vray-materials.de where users who permanentely vote down other, high rated works, get warned, kicked or banned and their low votes get deleted automatically.

Additionally, the 5% highest and the 5% lowest votes are beeing ignored for the avarage.

Just think of something more complex then “love it” please…

#72

More tidbits:

I’ve been participating in the in the showcase gallery with the new system. From my short experience, I no longer vote just on all-around quality. My votes now are arbitrary. I vote on humor and ideas regardless of image quality, do to lack of grading. Maybe that’s the goal?

For me, the new ‘Love it’ button is the ‘cool-love it’, ‘LOL-love it’, ‘that’s really stupid-love it’, ‘great job-love it’, ‘OMGTA-love it’, ‘that’s so bad it deserves an award-love it’,
button. 5 thumbs would be a good star replacement.

I also realize that the new invisi-vote (I assume, stars show after 20+ votes) screwed up the recognition system in the Anatomy/Sketchbook forum:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=200

I perused starred sketchbook threads (when time was short) which were usually interesting. Now there are only four ‘starred’ threads left in the entire forum (all 4 are quite exceptional by the way). 20+ votes is a bit of a stretch to highlight a popular sketchbook thread and there are a lot of SBs and a lot of good ones. I found the voting results there mature and reliable.

Simon–I like that vote averaging idea you have there in #61.

#73

me again.

no fancy calculations stuff

what do you say about this little idea : 3 numbers,3 sections… :

-[color=Yellow]*WOW![/color][color=Yellow]* (3)
[/color]-[color=Wheat]*Good[/color][color=Wheat]* (2)
[/color]-[color=Orange]Bad! (1) (Obligated to leave a comment [reason] for that)
[/color]

#74

Honestly, did you really think you could please everybody? If you did, let this be a lesson.

My perspective is that what might have been a flawed, but useful system was turned into a useless system.
I used the rating system as a guide for finding cool images to view. I have given a 5* maybe four times and a 1* maybe twice. I can see the temptation to try to skew the rating to something that seems more reasonable, but I agree that it should not be done.

I think ratings should stay anonymous, but perhaps the total number of each rating given by each member could be shown. Then, members who only give 1’s and 5’s can be easily identified.

I don’t visit this site too regularly, but I am annoyed by the impression (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) I get that there was little community input or warning given regarding the change.

#75

Don’t you think that YOU are looking at the voting system the wrong way? I for one don’t use the system so that you can decide which post can ‘go to the front page’. I couldn’t care less about that.

I’m using the voting system as a way of communicating with the person that posted his work. I want to show my disapproval of approval. With a somewhat specific rating (1-5 stars). And surely I don’t want to write a comment at every post, there’s no time for that.

Furthermore, the users that post here are looking forward to those reactions so that they know what others think of their work. It can be a guide, a lesson and yes, it can also be very frustrating if the rating is lower than you thought it would be (especially if you suspect that some trolls have downrated the post).

All of this valuable feedback is now GONE. The learning curve is GONE. At school and university people don’t only get a 10 out of 10 for the same reason. They need feedback.

Every post is important, from noob post to uber-professional post. I fiercely hope you agree with this. And not only focus on ‘frontpage material’. Today’s noob is tomorrow’s pro.

A rating system that only rates the maximum is not a rating system. Especially if a 5-star recommendation can’t be downgraded. I honestly don’t know what your current system is. I guess it’s a car without brakes and no reverse.

I urge you (cgstaff) to switch back to the old system or at least think of a new one, previous posts offered some great ideas. Above all, do some research on other websites, I’m sure other people have already tackled this issue long ago.

Please consider that the voting system has a very different purpose for most users than you think it does. And of course we, The Users, make this forum. Without the users there is no cgtalk.

Dear cgstaff, I give you 2** stars for the voting system, but I see a lot of room for improvement.

#76

fernando749845 - So, I guess it’s too difficult for you to tell the artists what you think of their work in a post rather than using some 5 star rating system that says absolutely nothing to the work except “this thread has been rated 3 stars by a random anonymous person”?

How is that helpful in any way? Little gif stars do not provide valuable feedback for any artists. Textual instructions and comments relating to the work are billions of times more helpful if you want to give an artist feedback.

"This is cool! :thumbsup: :bowdown: :beer: " <---- is equally not helpful.

No, I don’t believe that I’m not looking at the voting system the wrong way. It’s a forum mechanism that shows us and other users which threads are popular or noteworthy. While reviewing threads, the user has an option to express that they “like this thread”, this approval rating has is calculated by the system and depending upon certain variables it will flag for recognition by other users or the Forum Leaders (in the form of a visible rating on the thread or moving it to the CGChoice award queue).

#77

Of course it can be “too difficult to tell the artists what you think of their work in a post”. E.g. it just hearts some personal religious feelings, or you don’t like the sexual background, which you don’t wish to discuss in the thread, but you would love to express your dislike. Or the work is full of thousend times seen combat game fantasies, and you just don’t want to say how boring it is, and/or not want to spoil the authors thread with your negative comment. And ,and, and…
Your “system” is unfair to people, who don’t like a thread, and have no time for a comment, or don’t want to heart the author’s feelings by their criticism. The 5*votes of the fastest users counts, regardless what the rest thinks. I honestly can’t understand why this restrictions suppose to be good for you…

#78

Hello again Kirt,

I sense some hostility in your reaction. By all means I didn’t mean to offend you, I just want to make this a better forum. I’m sorry if I came across in an offending way, I just want to discuss this topic.

Again I must disagree with your statements. It’s very helpful indeed if people use the rating system. Not when just one person uses it on 1 post. But when 50 people give it a 4**** rating or 10 people a 3*** rating then that says a lot. I mean, the valuable information lies in the amount of given ratings in relation to the average rating itself.

I agree, it’s not too difficult to write a comment, but I guess most of us just don’t have the time for it. But still one wants to leave a short message, and then the rating system comes in handy.

I’m still convinced that you have deleted valuable information, and that you’re even more focusing on the ‘frontpage material’, which in my opinion even more neglects a lot of great work that does not match up to that standard.

But… I agree with you that the old system doesn’t tell as much as we would like. So let’s encourage people to tell more, in a fast and effective way.

I’ve come up with my own rating system proposal: a 1.1 version of the old voting system. Please take a look at the attached image.

I would like to see the old system return, but with a rating per major skill. In the 3D section e.g. 1 to 5 rating for modeling, texturing & surfacing, lighting & shaders, animation, compositing et cetera. And the possibility to add a few words per skill, but that would not be mandatory.

If a skill is not applicable you don’t vote for it. And I would add the “X-Factor” which just describes this “woooow!” feeling and cannot be categorized into the skills.

I guess the main idea here is that you want to ‘automate’ the reactions made by users. Yes, everyone can just do that with a short note in a reply post, but then you end up with 100.000 posts that cannot be catalogued nor quickly interpreted. It’s just a ‘blob’ of information.

However with a categorized but flexible rating system you guide reactions into a format that can be used for better and precise ratings, and most of all: better feedback.

I would also give the opportunity to vote anonymously or with your nickname mentioned. This says something about the vote and discourages troll voting.

You could display these votes in between regular posts. A mini-post or quick-post so to speak. Or you could integrate this voting interface in a normal post form.

So, that’s my proposal. Feel free to use deformation and/or explode modifiers on it. :wink:

#79 
That might be the quote of the day. I couldn't put it in a better way.  The current system does not allow us to describe our feelings towards any given image.  I like something more and I like something less. Now everything is on the same level. This is not right!

What else can be done?  Some people suggest that it would be good to create a categorized rating system with rating per major skill. l think that it would be too much. It would turn browsing the gallery into a full time job (or a part time one, at least :)) 

Probably it would be best to return to the old system. Maybe to make a small improvement in it. As somebody put it, to make version 1.1.  As far as I have seen it, giving one  star was in many cases the way to reduce the value of somebody's work. The weapon of revenge. If you really like a picture you give it a good mark. Or else you just ignore it.  In the same time people generally avoided giving five stars to somebody unless they wanted to improve the rating made before. So why not just to eliminate one star  and five stars? Leave just three positions: two stars, three stars and four stars. Of course, that system would have its own flaws as well but nothing is perfect. At least, it would be better that the system we are having now :eek:.

These are my two cents.

#80

What’s wrong with ?

It’s really simple. If you like a piece, comment on it. If you think it’s really amazing, cast a vote to bring it to the attention of others. If you don’t like the picture, close the thread. How could this possibly be any easier?