Using references: Does it matter?


#81

Well my view is, if you’re going to do it be thorough. Since there are almost as many opinions on this as there are people, I’d like to start from the ground and work up from there. The ground in this case is the law, the final arbiter of any difference of opinion.

The usage of other’s images without permission apparently only has one defence in the industrialised west, and its called ‘fair use’.
I recently quoted chillingeffects.org in another thread. They’re talking American law, but EU and USA recently synchronized themselves better on this subject I understand, so:

Question: What is fair use? Answer: There are no hard and fast rules for fair use (and anyone who tells you that a set number of words or percentage of a work is “fair” is talking about guidelines, not the law). The Copyright Act sets out four factors for courts to look at (17 U.S.C. § 107):
[ul]
[li] The purpose and character of the use. Transformative uses are favored over mere copying. Non-commercial uses are also more likely fair.[/li][li] The nature of the copyrighted work. Is the original factual in nature or fiction? Published or unpublished? Creative and unpublished works get more protection under copyright, while using factual material is more often fair use.[/li][li] The amount and substantiality of the portion used. Copying nearly all of a work, or copying its “heart” is less likely to be fair.[/li][li] The effect on the market or potential market. This factor is often held to be the most important in the analysis, and it applies even if the original is given away for free. If you use the copied work in a way that substitutes for the original in the market, it’s unlikely to be a fair use; uses that serve a different audience or purpose are more likely fair.[/li][/ul]--------------------------------------------------------------

let’s examine what this means in practice, for you as an artist, in 3 different situations.

A. I use 3 different photos I find online (say 1 from a porn site, 1 from a wallpaper site, 1 from a professional photographer), merge them together, somewhat change the lighting, proportions, pose, and other details of some or all of them, to create a self-promotional piece. Then I get sued by one or all of the copyright holders of the original refs.
The finished work is transformative, non-commercial, fictional, and it’s serving a different audience or purpose than any of the originals. Even though I’m using “the heart” of each original, each only contributes to a smaller part of the new work. I obviously win the law suit.

B. I use cloned textures and other minor details from 5 different photos found online, to create a commercial work. I’m sued by one or more of the original photos’ copyright holder(s).
The finished work is very much transformative, still fictional and serving a different audience and purpose. I’m very far from using the “heart” of the originals. Even though it’s commercial, I win the lawsuit.

C. I use 1 photo from online and I don’t change it too much. At first it’s non-commercial, but later my work ends up on a book cover, and can therefore be said to have become commercial. Again I’m sued by the original photographer.
It is entirely possible I would lose this time, even though it’s a fictional work, because it’s not very transformative, I copied the “heart” of the original, and it’s commercial. It probably all depends on who the new audience is, for that book. The point is no one can say for sure until it’s too late - until the verdict is in. For this reason, it’s obviously best to avoid the C type of situation completely.

Anyone with better knowledge of these kind of situations, please chip in.


#82

Oh, terrific, Lunatique!

I’ve been very curious how things were going over there, it’s very exciting to hear from the mods finally, and it sounds like things are really starting to get nailed down, that’s great!

In most forums, there’s always the complaint ‘if we make a notice, nobody will bother to read it’, but that’s not true. The people who are serious and interested will read it-- and in many cases, those will be the people that the casual users look up to. It may take some time, but if a clear and firm policy and precedent is set out, it WILL have an effect, ESPECIALLY if the management can maintain a consistent stance on it and enforce it when necessary.

Perhaps most importantly, those harassing artists for this sort of thing should be handled immediately and firmly. Even if they’re in the right, and need to bring a lawsuit or something, arguing is not helpful to the community.

It won’t be immediate or 100%, but the overall mood of the community will shift-- even a group this size may be more sensitive to shifts than you realize, even behind-the-scenes stuff can have a widespread effect, and so does silence. If a clear policy isn’t outlined for this, the ugliness will continue to spread and become the accepted norm, which invites poison that we don’t want or need.

We may only be a corner of the internet and the industry, but it has to start somewhere, and we may as well do what we can!


#83

I can tell immediately when someone has used photo references for a painting. So can a number of other mods. It seems some artists have tried to trick the system / trick moderators by saying that their work was ‘painted from scratch’ because they know that if they say in their Gallery description that photo reference was used, they will have to provide it - and then a comparison can be made, and it becomes quite obvious who traces / samples directly from a photo.

Personally, I will never plug artwork where this is the case. If it is clear that the artist is being dishonest, I’ll pass over artwork that is great to look at but clearly referenced without credit being given to the original photographic reference. I think other mods are on the same page about this. So, it really doesn’t pay that much to lie.


#84

I tend to favor artwork that is original, but I would never rake a person over coals for using photo reference. Encouraging this open the door for witchhunts, trust me., they are an ugly thing,

Going back to original point of the thread, I do feel that there is a time and a place for reference, and honestly a lot artist could learn a lot from the study of real life references,

But we do need to pin down what the definition iof reference is.
-R


#85

A lot of VERY interesting comments here. I agree with a lot of them lately !

One I don’t agree with is this one :

Originally posted by puzzledpaul :

I for one enjoyed viewing scrawnypaws end results - and would prefer to have those hanging on my wall than the original photos.

Sorry Paul, I think you are REALLY a little bit puzzled …


#86

Something I also thought about recently …

In the “real art world”, meaning traditional methods - it is extremely seldom that someone will get “world famous” between 17 and 25 years old.

In CG, it is quite frequent.

This is not to say that someone very young couldn’t have a great talent, but it is just not the way it goes with traditional methods or with photography for that matter. Most very known people in those categories are around 50 years old or more.

Perhaps the CG world should be a little bit more patient and wait 10 years or more to REALLY be able to appreciate the artwork of some ?

This way of quickly making stars out of some people could perhaps be the end of CG ? Or it could mean some heavy inflation …

Personally, I think that if CG wants some respect - then what ??

There has always been some threads about CG versus traditional methods - if CG is only overpainting photos, it is not going to be able to compete with traditional methods right away.

The only area where CG is really respected from my point of view is animation. And I’m sorry that I don’t know anything about that …

Still images have to compete with traditional methods and that’s a completely different situation.

But I will start using photos in my paintings if that’s the direction it’s going to take and personally - even though I don’t have that much time for painting - I think that I will quite easily make it better than some who already made it to the front covers of some famous books.


#87

<< Sorry Paul, I think you are REALLY a little bit puzzled … >>

Why / How (in this context, of course) :slight_smile:

All I’m saying is that if I’d been shown both - in an ‘everyday situation’ and been asked which I preferred - then in a couple of cases, it would’ve been the ones produced by s, rather than the original photos.

Since liking or otherwise is a fairly subjective matter, I’m afraid I don’t get your point.

pp


#88

Paul,

did you see the original photo ? It was quite some photo …

If you prefer some painting over and what do I know - then you are a little bit on the corny side … sorry to say so.

The photo was splendid - why the hell would someone want to paint it over and add some textures ? It really wasn’t necessary, but that’s the way it goes : take whatever photo on the Net and do what ever you like to it - don’t even bother to ask the photographer if he agrees that you use it or not - just go ahead and do it and be pretentious enough to think that your work is better than the one of the photographer …

In the case of this scrawnypawns guy or what’s his name ? - the difference between the real photo and his work was quite slim. AND he was pretentious enough to post some tutorials - I’m speechless …


#89

puzzledpaul– Personal preference is not really the issue here-- even if a paintover were to look fantastic, if it’s copyright infringement it’s not cool, and we need to figure out how to deal with that.

ThePhotographer
– ‘Respect’ for CG in the world at large is a whoooole other mess. There are many threads on that subject too.

What we’re addressing here is the problem of disagreement and confusion on the concept and legality of using reference or “paintovers” in digital work, and how this forum can approach the issue.

Any suggestions, now that our leaders have finally stepped out to offer their ideas and ask what we think?

edit also, guys, this is not the place to rake over somebody’s reputation from a situation on an entirely different forum. The example was a good one, but this debate you guys are having is an example of exactly what we need to get a handle on here.


#90

Have also been reading the David Hockney book about the use of optics in the past …and just strikes me there’s nothing new under the sun … except the details of the technology in use.
Paul, after you are done reading the Hockney book be sure to check out the other side of the debate. There are many articles at the artrenewal.org debunking Hockney’s claims. Like yourself, I was blown-away when I first read the book and took it as gospel. Since then, my positioned has reversed once more. I’m not saying your opinion will change, but at least check out some of the opposing literature online.

One of my favorite artists, Gregg Kruetz, has a great online rebuttal here:

http://www.kirkrichards.com/Gregg_Kreutz_article.htm

his personal site, if interested, is here:

www.greggkreutz.com


#91

I think the truth has to lie somewhere in between “artrenewal’s” brand of complete wackiness and Hockney’s old saw.
When you hear two sides pontificating so voraciously it’s alway a good idea to look toward the middle.


#92

<< provided credit is given where due to others involved / instrumental in its creation.>>

Copied from my original post.

TP / GC - I never said I agreed with, or condoned the course of action taken by the individual concerned to end up with the result - just that given the choice etc etc …

TP - I have no wish to continue to swap ideas about subjective tastes etc if it’s going to divert the thread even more - but am more than happy to discuss offline - you’ll find an email addr on fr. page of site in profile.

<< Like yourself, I was blown-away when I first read the book and took it as gospel. >>

d68 - many thx for the links, they sound interesting / useful - I’ll have a shufties … but I wouldn’t necessarily agree with how you’ve described my viewpoint / stance. I just know that when I’ve been engaged in work requiring tool use - I’d use whatever I could to do the best job possible (preferably quicker with no loss of quality) - and doubt that it was any different in the past - The technology may well have been different then, but imagination, creativity, resourcefulness etc didn’t seem to be lacking - and that such ppl would rapidly embrace the benefits of what we have at our disposal.

pp


#93

There is always a 'big to do ’ in the artworld. The artworld is an empty void with spectators balanced on the fringes giving unqualified opinions. It is old knowledge that many famous paintings were only drawn by the master and sent down the road to be coloured in. Rembrandt signed drawings from his favorite students so they could be sold to make a few extra bucks and keep them studying.

This tools thing pisses me off. If you go to conceptart.org you can see brilliant character designs and the medium used is irrelevant. They dont have backgrounds and are just masterfull pieces by themselves.

Following the tools logic the more expensive the soft the better the result.

Not.

As far as 3d is conserned: wang a box in the viewport, extrude some arms and legs, dump on a texture, plonk on some hair, bang in some bones, hammer out a few keyframes and tart the stuff up with your fav fx proggy. :scream:


#94

For what it’s worth, I prefer David Hockney to Artrenewal …

As much as I find that Artrenewal has some point in letting people get to know some artists who were sometimes very known and accepted and also others who sort of fell into oblivion, they are also very, very aggressive against some more modern artists like for example David Hockney.

I personally find that the right thing is somewhere in the middle. OK, promote all those old artist who never got accepted at their time. They are certainly very talented. But at the same time, don’t be so rude to some of the 20th century modern artists who actually did us all a big favour - we can now do almost exactly what we want to.

Artrenewal is a BIT conservative. Nothing wrong with their defending some old artists, but why not also defend some more modern ones ? Other ways of seeing things …


#95

Agree at 100%. I think only REALLY skilled/experienced artists can draw/paint right from their heads. I wish I could do that someday.

He told the right word. :slight_smile:


#96

kudos to the moderators for how they run things. this is the best forum in the world in my honest opinon. :love:

however i think i just need to say this… i think people should refrain from making open accusations against other artists simply because they think the said artists who said no references were used in their piece is being dishonest. these are the sorts of things that can and should be resolved behind the scenes(i think that’s what PM’s are best used for) because call me crazy… but what if the person being accused truly is THAT gifted? one can never say. to openly bring accusations on someone simply because they have a hunch or a tingly feeling that the said person is being dishonest is what i would consider an error in judgement. to openly post such an accusation where others can clearly read it… an accusation with no strong evidence… will have a great chance of carreening into a trial by publicity in which the general public presumes the accused guilty before proven innocent (rather than the other way around). i think this is damaging to the artist under fire and to the community as a whole. i’ve seen this happen several times now and i think it is a question of ethics that should be addressed.

we’re artists one and all. great and small. let’s show a little more concern and care for each other eh?

with that said i just want to say i love you all. :scream:


#97

I think the problem with referencing, when it comes to digital artwork at least, is that there are too many people that use references ‘improperly’; Tracing, overpainting, etc. And I think that’s where the problem lies; Artists that use referencing properly (including myself), are afraid to be upfront about it in fear of feeling less of an artist, or being accussed of overpainting. It happens all the time; Almost any realistic work in the 2D gallery, there will always be someone that screams cheat, overpaint, etc, despite that the artist did use reference, but that’s as far as it went.

Personally I see no shame in using references, I do it all the time. The masters all used references, does that make them any less of artists? Hell no. Many CG Award winners use references and are upfront about it, such as Linda Bergkvist, Henning, etc. What aggrevates me is the fact that there are some artists that clearly use references, and state everything’s painted from scratch. How do I know this? Simple. The human mind simply can’t paint photoreal lightning and such by itself; Reference is essential for any artist who wants to paint in a photoreal manner, there’s simply no way of going around it.


#98

I second that.

There is a huge problem with the term “referencing” being extremely broad and I think that it should be up to the moderators to clearly differ the following terms which “reference” might refer to:

  1. overpainting
  2. copying a photo by looking at it (and I think that is the most popular definition of reference)
  3. looking at multiple photos and “understanding” the build of the referenced object, and hence not copying but basing on several sources and getting a general idea

BUT: What if you are that Artist No 3, who uses many photos at a time to understand an object, to get a feel of it. If you mention photo reference, which I suppose you should(?), you will then have to display it. But display what exactly? Those dozens of pictures you based on in tiniest bits?
The “reference” naturally won’t really match and the artist (I witnessed such situations) gets immediately bashed for lying, for hiding the real reference.
So, at one hand we would say “looking at many pictures is like looking at one and so should be called referencing”, yet when somebody supplies those many pictures and we see no real connection with the outcome, we immediately demand to see “the real reference” (as in option no 2)

Now, there is also another problem: Is mentioning enough or is supplying the references crucial? Even though the moderators state the need of showing the mentioned reference, the rule is executed only sometimes, towards certain people. There is a billion works that mention the ref usage (some awarded), yet noone demands the links.
So two questions follow: Are we all equal or not? How crucial is this rule, if not everyone needs to obey it?

I think that the only “cure” for the situation are some Moderator’s actions, some clearly stated rules, defined differences between many ways of referencing, which everyone, with no exceptions, should respect.


#99

well i think taht human mind can simulate photorealistic lightnig you just have to develop an imagebase to refer to in your mind…yes it means countless observations etc…if this is referencing then you are correct but what i mean is taht artst does not nessecarily have to use ref in the time he/she is painting the current painting. Hehe but i guess that every last one uses ref from memory and if taht counts as a ref well lets call all the guys with photographi memory cheats?

Yes i agree overpainting sucks though Seeing this happen so much around makes me think does it matter afterall in the end?

Or is it just the product that matters…i think that if i were a employer i would not give a rats ass if the artist does everything he does by overpainting…as long his work is top noch (fills the purpeuse). But as art goes…dunno i think its kind of lame …and ofcourse it all depends taking a single photo and overpainting this simply sucks but when one is to shoot his/her own ref and using several refs to combine the scene etc…

then its all normal…all the old masters used ref for their paintings (all those great landscapes etc were made on a really good underpainting.(they made ref sketches in the summer and painted the thing over the winter etc) …in a way i would say underpaintings are cheats? dont you agree? they where the current available technology for producing better pics…if they had a chance to use cameras…)

wel lanyways i think that if u are not overusing the thing it is normal …i myself hope to gain enough experience from live drawinclasses etc so idont have to use ref pics for constructing humans and such…occationaly i assume i have to turn to ref on some extreme occasions…

…and photoreal lightning goes there are some techniques to achive the effect…underling grids for shadowmapping etc…the methods architects use to get the effect on their pencil renderings…

anyways take care…:slight_smile:


#100

Perhaps but there is a trap in that, assume for example you would like a few changes (nothing unusual in that either), different angle, different lighting set up, different this, different that, if you said artist is only capable of working over the top of another picture you’ve got a problem.