Theoretical SUB-D


yeah i thought that because,
its not that the edge isnt sharp, its just not right,
and the mesh seems to be pulling around the place on the wire you posted


3dzealot, can you for the first time show an example of an inside corner on a rounded surface for once? we all know it works with flat surfaces fine


You know, Holosynthetic, instead of undermining everything I say and show here, you could politely stop and ask me to go into something further.

If I were to take another five minutes, it could be cleaner, but the point here is to reduce the edge weights by increasing the standoff distance between the edges. This model is all quads, and has no shade problems. With a few more minutes, the curved surface could be smoothed out more, but alas, I’m on a deadline…




Thanks for the compliments Dzignguy :slight_smile:

The crease you show here is indeed a nasty one. This is one of the main disadvantages of subdivision modelling for mechanical objects: you end up with loads of edges in places you do not want them.

The crease is there because those two edges are so close to eachother, so to get rid of it you should spread them out a bit.
Since you need them close to eachother at the corner it might be nice to add (yet another!) edge.

I’ve edited your object, the creases are as good as gone. I’ve also tweaked the end of the wing a bit, the ‘inner’ control edge was missing, giving it a bit of a wierd rounded corner.


For a nice round corner try to give the two ‘control’ edges exactly the same distance from the ‘corner’ edge. Also be careful not to make the rounded edges too small. It would be a shame if you did all that hard work but it wouldn’t even show up in the final render :slight_smile:

As you can see I’ve also ‘fanned’ out the edges in the front of the wing. This is not absolutely nessecary as you don’t see a crease because the wing is perfectly straight from base to tip (the general rule is that you can go mad with triangles and edges close together if they are in a perfectly flat surface).
Still it’s good practice to even out those edges, it looks nicer and maybe the wing will bend a bit when animated…

Here is the tweaked version:


3DZealot: There is no denying it works now since the two of us have been showing it at the same time…
Believe in the ways of the subdivision Ye nonbelievers! :slight_smile:


Thats perfect! Now I got it! I thought I had tried all the possibilities and yet here you go again…Ok I’m a devoted fan… for sure now! many thanks!



Go on, give props to Marcel too. He did, after all, go to way more effort to show how it works. :smiley:

But, hey, I’m really glad it’s making sense now!

Keep those questions coming!

BTW, speaking of Marcel, lookup his wip thread in the focused crits forum. He has a little pistol there that will blow your mind…especially checkout the wireframe.




You and 3DZealot are on my big time thanks list. I didnt see your post, when I posted last. I just saw 3DZealots reply. Yet another way of doing the same thing, perfect! If I achieve anything with this stuff in the future it will be due to guys like you and 3dz who give without alot of thanks and in some cases a little disrespect from morons like me. You guys have made a believer out of me for sure!!!

Thanks again,

Ive read and read cause I believe in doing my homework but this is honestly the first time Ive ever seen this technique illustrated in these two different ways. Amazing! Great Stuff!


i love you guys, or this thread or whatever…



Man, I’m really glad you’re finding this usefull. Ain’t it cool once you start getting it?

reeves1984: The feeling is mutual. :smiley:

Love tha city BTW. Very inspiring. Very.




Hey… I use Marcel’s method when I model!:thumbsup: With edge constraint set in max 5 this is a great technique! Zealot, nice job~ different approach I’m off to experiment!:wavey:


Now now, love is all well and good, but there are more important things in life. Such as the SubD faq. Eh 3dz? :wink:


Damnit, Urg!

Actually, Peter, are you back home yet? I’ve got some stuff for you to proof…Oh, and make images for. :smiley:




Nope, not home yet. Won’t be home until the 11th of august actually. However, I can still proof read and give you a hard time about most things :slight_smile: Just send stuff to my hotmail addy and I’ll read and reply. Images would have to wait though… Unless you’ll do them.

I expect a mail from you within three days, or I’m rerouting my return trip to go by your house. I’ll buy a katana here just for you :wink:


Hi I’m new here and I’ve been enjoying this thread.

I’ve been trying to learn to do complex structures(mostly mechanical) using sub’d modeling and this thread alone has done more to help than any of 3ds max’s tutorials.

I have major problems when I try to model something organic or something with lots of curves.

Any Tips?

Oh, I was watching Martin Kroll “Freak”

What techinque does he use to model the belts so that bend so perfectly around the rings and the body.

How does this tech. tranfer from mirai to max
(or AutoCad).

Sorry if I sound very noobish(cause I am).


I think that it’s mostly about eyeballing it. Mirai has some good tools for local rotations (looks like it anyway :)) which makes it easier.

I can think of two ways to do it in max: one is of course doing as Martin does, extrude, rotate, extrude, rotate.

The other is a bit more experimental since I don’t have max in front of me, but it should work :slight_smile: You could draw a spline where you want your belts to go then use conform to “tighten” the spline around your character, then use “extrude along spline” to create the mesh. Could work, and I’d gladly try it before posting it, alas, no max for me… (I think it’s called conform anyway, it’s one of the compound tools)


did you get the mail 3dz?


awsome work guys:) :beer: so much for my poor overfilled brain

stagger, stagger, collapse


Hey there, I am fairly new to 3d, and i have been captivated by sub-d…bay raitt’s, pixar and others that use sub-d.

anyways i have read all of this thread, and tutorials from everywhere but i have a few questions i was hoping the modelers from here could help me with.

here we go, using max 5
in 3d world mag… july i think, they had a sub-d tutorial. but when i read it, it doesn’t ever really subdivide the model. its actually just a cube that has been converted to edit mesh then meshsmooth mod on top. How is this sub-d modeling? or is just the concept of using low-poly model then letting the computer interpilate (sp?). in other words is this tutorial using the idea of sub-d or is it sub-d modeling?

While doing this tutorial i noticed that it asks me to convert to edit mesh, then add meshsmooth. Can i do convert to edit poly, then add meshsmooth for same results?? i tested it to find no difference, and i read up on poly and mesh, I dont see any difference. so should one replace the other? or does one have benifits over the other??

I followed another tutorial, on line. and it takes you on path of “edge loops”. pretty much used cut and used the edge loop theory from bay raitt (i think thats what he works with) anyways when we end the tutorial it doesn’t say to add meshsmooth or subdivide modifier. so this kinda is continueing the meshsmooth question i had. Is the subdivide modifier used in sub-d modeling? you would think, but when i apply it (i am probably doing something wrong) it just divides my quads right in half making them all tris. when i render it out i dont see a difference.

So could someone correctly point out the actual process of sub-d modeling? i am about half and half, just not quite there yet… ooh yeah I am using max 5 at the moment. thanks



Ok, first off:

Editable Mesh, and Editable Poly are very different. Editable poly allows you to use all the “sub-d” style tools while modeling, i.e., connect, select loop, etc. There is more to it, but for the sake of brefity, I’ll stop there.

You can use MS on an EM, and on EP. They usually will smooth the same. The are some cases where this is not the case, but overall, that’s how it works. In any tutorial, you can use EP instead of EM. The only differences will be in tools, not final output.

Sub-d usually refers to a low-poly control cage affecting a high-poly output mesh. So, appling a MS mod to a cube is sub-d because you are smoothing a control cage(the cube) into something else.

The Subdivide modifier is not to be used for this sort of thing. Ignore it for now. Use the meshsmooth modifier.

As for the process of sub-d modeling, it’s pretty much just creating lower poly geometry to control a high-poly smoothed model.

Sorry for the poor reply, but I’m on a deadline and quite hurried.




dont apologize, you said enough. thanks for the subdivide modifier comment. that was just confusing me. thanks for clearing up the meshsmooth questions i had.

kinda makes me wonder , besides game devs, who doesn’t use a meshsmooth?
thanks again
if i have any other questions, i will be sure to post…