The New Maid

#25

I’ve been watching this for a while now. I like the way this is unfolding so far. This reminds me of a water media painting.
I’m curious as to how far (or less) you take the black ruled linework. I can see a thin dark non-uniform rule trapping shapes, going black were necessary (more akin to watercolor work), not as heavy and thorough as you have it on the man atm.

A couple compositional crits:
–I think there is too much space on the left and a little too much on the bottom. I think the 3 figures need to be offset a bit more in the scene (toward the left).
–I’d raise the foreground table top to overlap the dress hem of the woman on the right, to reinforce the table’s hierarchical placement in the space.
–I think you are submitting to the dictates of your 3d rendered planar perspective distortion of the vertical lines in the composition. I think the verticals, especially on the right, need to be pulled inward at the top, in this case. Right Right now things look like they’re sliding downhill to the right, facilitated by the right leaning verticals. If you want to reinforce a vertical lines verticalness in a pictorial composition, don’t make it vertical, lean it a tad to the left (unless its close to the left edge of the frame).

Here are some links to the watercolor artist Steve Hanks, showing some typical dark edged shapes, typical of watercolor work, in a more natural and nuanced manor. Probably too sublte for your intentions.

https://www.artifactsgallery.com/art.asp?!=A&name=Steve%20Hanks&ID=640#LINKS

http://2photo.ru/en/post/19286

Then again, you may be going for this look (?):

http://2photo.ru/en/post/27183

Looking forward to the next update.

Here’s a po that better describes what I’m explaining.

#26

I think I should try and clear something up. I was not trying to be rude with my critic of your work.
I like to keep statements short.
So I guess that can come off as being rude? Again that is not my intent, sorry if you read it that way.
As for your critic of my work on this post, I’m not sure why you did that? If I wanted a critic I would have started my own post. BUT…that being said. I went back and looked at it. I had been so focused on the clients wants that I did not see it for myself. It did need to be just a bit darker so I made some adjustments.

#27

@ Quadart: Thank you very much for the profound feedback! :slight_smile:

The watercolour mood isn’t really addressed - if any washy look, then more like varnished ink, partially at least, as needed for example on the wall. Didn’t use any painting as imspiration for painting style - so still open for changes. Thanks for the links! I truly admire well done watercolour works, but i’ve been always afraid of doing it myself - probably a psychological barrier since my childhood, not giving watercolour technique the deserved value, but having used similar techniques with translucent albumen colour on transmissible films for example, which isn’t less delicate…

Concerning the composition i partially agree, but as you’re mentioning, i’m already the slave of the 3d set-up. The perspective has been carefully chosen, a slight tele angle to compress the perspective just a little bit, giving the room a more compact feel, while keeping the viewing angle natural. Beside that the horizon is a tiny bit tilted to the right(!) to get a slight random feel and to not let the new maid slide out the door while the whole group is somewhat shifted to the left. The final cut is nonetheless not fully defined yet, having intentionally a slightly larger view than targeted for the final. Your PO would be certainly a very good possibility. The only thing i can do concerning the tilted verticals at right is a post-correction of the perspective, but currently it doesn’t really bother me (yet :smiley: ). Well, let’s see how it looks with the darkened corner there…

Did play around with placing the front table quite a lot in the 3d application. There were basically two problems to solve, 1. to not get a too arranged look by keeping everything fully visible, and 2. to not cover the characters too much with the items on the table (and to not get strange formations one underneath the other). Having your input i’ll address now the exact position of that table again - i’d really loved to have it closer to the stove to have less problems with the falling in light, but there’s not much free play…

Thanks again, Quadart!

@ rownd: Hey man, perhaps you’re right that it’s been a fault to give you an input. Let’s forget the dispute! :beer:

#28

Just a minor update, more about brightness and colour mood on floor and walls. Not that sure about the colours, needing perhaps a few accents… (the amount of black outlines isn’t refined yet)

@ Quadart: You gave me at lot to think about. Especially your thoughts about my black lines are leading to a more conscious usage. Worked out the man’s head to show what i have in mind on all characters concerning contrast, saturation, and the amount of black.(eyes and hair will need some improvements though)

Concerning your suggestions about composition: Instead of just saying something like “thanks, i’ll work on it” and changing then nothing, i’d like to give my reasons when i don’t agree - especially to an experienced artist as you are, whose opinion i most appreciate.

The perspective correction i probably won’t apply, because it feels unnatural in my eyes. Items would look distorted imo and the whole mood would get an other step further toward sterility. Personally i’m trying to avoid perspective corrections when ever possible, even if seeing it getting widely popular since easily applicable in CG. So one could call me a ‘denier’ on a related note.

The placement of the table is rather difficult and certainly debatable. It will heavily affect the density of the scenery and the weight of the main subject. I can’t push it more toward the stove - it would ‘attack’ my actors together with all the items on the table, making them also looking framed. They need imo a little space to breathe, even if going for a very busy set-up. I’ll probably change the position of some of the items there to not look like placed around the characters. So the single shoe looking out of the skirt is staying a random element… (btw: i also believe that cutting that lady twice would push the other maid too obviously into the main actor role, which i’d like to keep a little more subtle)

Noticed your other suggestion while studying your paintover to get the pigling more horizontal. The maid at right is intentionally quite a lot smaller to have the wood plate tilted to the viewer and the pigling more visible. Some decoration around the poor thing will follow (i’ll have to be careful to have no easily rolling stuff there).

Hope you don’t mind my arguing. Thanks a lot again for the food for thoughts! :slight_smile:

cheers
z

#29

There’s no argument, just benign differences of opinion from different perspectives. Following suggestions isn’t going to make this a potential masterpiece, nor is ignoring any suggestions and continuing on your own path going to stop it from becoming a potential masterpiece.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the leveling of the pork on the plank in the PO. Speaking of pigs and wood, combined with the overhead horns and overall strategic (not so random :wink: ) placement of these elements in relationship to the center of the universe of this image (the guy’s crotch in the dead center of the frame), you make a pretty strong statement about the fella, compositionally and symbolically. :slight_smile:

As far as natural perspective, I doubt very much that any artist/illustrator, past or present, would paint this scene in 3-point perspective, if they hadn’t constructed the space in a 3d app to begin with.

#30

Your tolerance toward different opinions speaks for your experience as an artist and as a pro.

You’re right about the popularity of 3-point perspective at interior paintings (some exceptions nonetheless exist, especially in the 20th century). However, i’ve always used it also in 2d, even if needing more to guess the vanishing point sometimes because of having it that far away.

I’m somewhat surprised about your interpretation of my subtle symbolism. :wink: The antler i’d like to keep, but i’m seriously thinking about replacing the piglet now if the species is looking vulgar somehow, by a pheasant for example. What do you think - about the amount of vulgarity, about a pheasant or something else?(fish cancelled as well in this case :smiley: )

#31

I can’t help but notice the young maid’s feet being really small and she is quite a tall one.
I’ve come back to look at this at least 10 times and I keep going straight to the shoes.

Probably the shine on the shoe is a bit off, making it look like it has less volume than it should.

I found a similar shoe (minus lace details)
http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/attilio-giusti-leombruni-leather-ankle-boot/3181059?origin=category&resultback=3984

Nice work by the way.

#32

I see the ‘horny’ ‘pig’ symbolic characterization of the guy as overtly intended, though I guess it could be an unintended subconscious manifestation. :shrug: Pigs get no respect in western metaphor/symbolism. Then there’s Babe.
I wouldn’t swap the piglet for another meat item as it adds (symbolically) to a layer of sexual tension to an otherwise banal scene–since a constellation of elements and subtle character expressions/gestures are already in place (including the title of the piece).

Or, instead of swapping the pig for something else, you could have the man looking contently at the delectable roasted piglet he just prepared, instead of at the pretty new employee. Nah.
Why is the man not a another woman?

His face is developing nicely.

#33

Thanks for the reply, Quadart! :slight_smile: I’m glad about your opinion concerning the piglet, since it’s been part of the basic concept, a slightly uncomfortable message concerning what we eat. I had a discussion before with someone closely related about the ‘ethics’ of nutrition, whether it wasn’t time to think about what we eat regarding the growing population. So the symbolic character of the piglet has been more a side effect of the idea, welcomed actually because of being annoyed sometimes by drunk and horny young guys, having unfortunately a few ‘studios’ in the neighbourhood.

The symbolism of the antlers wasn’t meant to be that strong as you’re reading it. It’s related only in English to the word “horny”, but the appropriate adjective in other languages doesn’t have anything to do with horns.(as far as i know)

But: Being ‘horned’ means in Italian and also in German to get deceived without knowing it (“cornuto”, also a rude expletive in Italian; and “jemandem Hörner aufsetzen” in German, “to don someone horns”, means to deceive someone). There’s also an expression in German (the reason actually why i didn’t mind having an antler over him), acting like a “Platzhirsch” (=the alpha male deer), meaning ‘top dog behaviour’, with a far less sexual context.

Beside that i planned to use at least one of the antlers as hook rack, having there a hanging apron for example (probably at the left side). But if you believe that the symbolism was too blatant in the Anglo-world, then i’ll certainly change it… (what do you think about?)

Decided btw to correct the perspective of the environment (but not on the characters) before going on, even if i don’t fully agree with those parallel verticals, but having an obvious 3D appearance isn’t what i’m going for either. Thanks for that input!

cheers
z

#34

Thanks, frostblade! :slight_smile: I had the very same impression, even if knowing that the feet aren’t too small. So i’ll revisit those shoes, having now the issue confirmed. Thanks, and thanks for the great reference!

#35

I wouldn’t get rid of the antlers as the symbolism really isn’t strong and a lot of viewers probably would not notice to make any kind connection anyway. I’d get the same initial impression of the man without the rack and pig at crotch level. The rutting stag symbolism from the rack and the ‘pig’ metaphor from the pig are just symbolic enhancements that intensify the impression.

As far as antlers on a rutting stag, they are all about sex, at the end of the day–including the symbolism/metaphors we draw from them. I’m not talking about horns in general, such as bull horns, devil horns, shoe horns, trumpet horns
and the wider spectrum of their symbolic interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antler#Sexual_selection
With her averted gaze, I’m guessing his antlers just might not be big enough. :hmm:

From another perspective my interpretation of the players in the scene could be all wrong. Hypothetically this could be an important scene from a popular story that I know nothing about and the woman on the left could be whispering something to her brother that she doesn’t want anyone on the other side of the door to hear,like–did you put the strychnine in the roast like I asked you? :smiley:

#36

Thanks for the reply, Quadart, and for taking time! :slight_smile:

Concerning “her averted gaze“, you never know, women are a bit like that… But jokes aside, a good friend of mine told me about her great grandmother, that looking men directly into the eyes has been regarded as indecent in those times for a young woman. The great grandmother was even told that doing so could cause pregnancy, what she fully believed for quite a long time.

The strychnine story is a cool idea - something i can tell when people are coming up with too much sexual tension in my decent portrayal of the morals and customs of French life in those days. And it shows how situations can get completely misinterpreted sometimes. :smiley:

Currently i’m still working on the perspective correction… plenty to do with all the layers i’d like to keep as long the symbolism of each item isn’t undoubtedly without fail. Just joking, i rather mean, as long colour and lighting mood aren’t definitive.

Thank again!
Cheers

#37

Nice! It’s pretty hard to suggest something, as you have your own way of working, and will do the lighting at the final stage. I only would make the guy’s head not to blend with the wall so much.

#38

@ mister3d: Thanks for dropping by, A. ! :slight_smile: I hope that you keep an eye on this - would be good to have your opinion concerning anatomy after having worked out the guy’s arms. The corrections needed on his right arm are more or less clear, while the left arm will be more tricky (i guess it’s more about shading and getting those falling folds into the perspective).

Update… (2600x1820)

@ frostblade: Gave the girl more comfortable shoes. Nonetheless, shoes at that time were cut to make the feet look smaller, especially in side views with those pulled in heels. Here an other ref i was using, showing authentic mid 19th century shoes:
http://19thcenturypaperdolls.weebly.com/uploads/9/6/2/7/962723/5526630_orig.jpg

#39

Managed yesterday to fill all the space, finally! :smiley:
(click on the picture for 2600x1860)

#40

An other update. Most work done on the walls and the door, the latter rather time-consuming and the first simply a pain. Had to repaint it (the entrance not finished yet) because its contrast has been already too high and it was giving the overall mood a somewhat dirty look (the saturation at left probably somewhat overtuned now, though…).
(click on the picture for 2600x1860)

#41

I like the way this is developing.
Nice style. I like the way you did the wood grain on the door and handled the specular haze on it and top part of the woodwork behind the guy.
I’m guessing that the inverted goblet is leaded glass, giving it it’s darkened grey bottom?

Can’t wait to see the finish!

#42

Thank you very much, Quadart - for the support and for the encouragement. Yeah, a lot of specular haze will have to go on in this scenery. Planned is also a nice light effect on the top of the fireplace with the light coming in through the trellised window, adding then quite a lot to the mood.

Didn’t think much of the sort of glass when doing the goblet - that heavy dark area was meant more as fractured reflections of the stove (the glass anyway not really convincing yet). But the better when you mean it looks like blead crystal glass.(which it supposed to be actually, even if the cut in the glass rather simply designed…)

Currently i’m focusing on the contrast on the faces while eliminating successively all black lines there, except of the outlines. So the man’s face is looking somewhat washy now after having changed the direction of the lighting there (have to pay more attention to the heavy reflections coming from the bright floor).

I’m very happy btw about having followed your suggestion concerning the perspective! I’ve been totally surprised by the additional depth in the picture when comparing the two small versions over each other. Can’t still explain the effect, but it’s certainly there, also without the added foreground. Perhaps because of compressing the perspective…? A mystery, but a cool one… thanks!

#43

Hey zokana (long time no see :stuck_out_tongue: ),
I love the 3D sketch and the way you’re filling it in. However stepping back and looking at the big picture, this scene suffers from lack of interest. It looks dead. One character’s face is hidden, the cute girl is distracted by something…the guy is also distracted but in a boring way.

My suggestion would be to have a child trying to steal cookies from the table, the maid looking and screaming at the child, the other maid struggling to keep the pig from falling over due to the first maid scolding the child, and the man in the middle eyeing the pig lustily, about ready to steal a piece while the maids are distracted.

#44

Hey stuh, didn’t expect you here! :smiley: Thanks for the kind and not so kind words! :stuck_out_tongue: (just joking, i did always like your straightforward way) Fact is that i was going for something quiet for a change, with focus on exercising painting a bit this and that…

Your ideas are much appreciated! I was thinking myself about getting more action into the scenery, decided then each time to keep it cool, and to follow strictly the original concept, which is kind of telling a story just subtly with a wink. Didn’t want to update yet, but here the recent progress, showing a little more action coming up: