THE KISS Principle....Why is it so HARD for A LOT of artists to follow it?

#28

For the most part I agree with you. Texturing fabric in the background, freckles, blemishes, seams in clothing, rivets, cracks in plaster, etc. all add to a sense of reality and completion in a scene. However, I have to disagree with the inclusion of textures and detail that won’t be seen - which goes back to my Quarter analogy: if it won’t be seen in the final piece is it really worth going the extra yard to put it there? …You may feel it is, but I personally don’t.

Depending on how they will be shot film sets don’t always wrap around the camera, yet when we watch the movie we believe that they do. I feel the same applies to an illustration or animation: if an element will never be seen why include it? The level of detail can be sensed without modeling or creating hyper-accurate bump maps for objects that will be obscured or so small that the detail is lost. By paying attention to the details in the subject and its visible environment this level of detail can be sensed - even if it doesn’t exist.

#29

For me, yes, it’s worth adding them.

If you take a walk through the woods one late night, there will be a lot going on around you that you might not immediately notice, but you’ll still be aware of them. There might be moths fluttering by that you, engaged in watching the moon, don’t take much notice of… but they’re still there, and I have no doubt that subconsciously, they’re affecting your mood.

Likewise, a little frog on a rock in a painting where the frog isn’t really interacting with any of the characters might never be noticed, but it’s there, and it gives life to the image.

Furthermore, when you paint, if you paint the level of detailing to look good at any particular format – and you’re aiming for, say, web-format – it just won’t look as good as if you paint it in a more complicated manner and then shrink it down.

Having been at this for a while, I’ve noticed that the paintings I create that have the biggest impact, that people remember and write letters to me about even years later, are also the ones where the devil got hold of me and I worked like a crazy person on every little detail down to a tiny bird hidden in the foliage or the shape of a toe that’s hardly visible in the format they’re viewed it in.

In addition, I love the thought that to fully appreciate all the details, you have to view this image in a huge, huge format – it still works when you’ve shrunk it down (why I said you always have to make sure it looks good before detailing) – but if you ever get to see a glimpse of the full resolution size, you’ll know that there’s a world of things going on there that most will never see.

At the end of the day, maybe it just makes a difference to me. I’m a perfectionist, no way I’m letting go of something before I’m fully happy with it. I can work on a dress pattern or the shape of eyelashes for a week until I’m satisfied. The end result always seems to be better when I don’t let go until I’m happy. We all work in different ways… just saying that one should keep it simple because that’s how it’s supposed to be is, I think, simplifying things a little too much.

I’d say heaven is in the details. Few are the simple, clean pictures that hold my attention more than three minutes. The ones where I can look around for interesting things for half an hour or more, those are the ones I’ll remember.

(As far as movies and sets go - I think the LOTR movies are a nice example of how much detailing can help the mood of something. It’s INSANE to see the work that has gone into the sets that they use. The tiny touches to the face of statues, the insane level of details in the fabrics of the clothes, the patterns in the armour - these things, you might never pause your dvd and stare at and notice the perfection of it, but hell, I bet they’re making a huge difference anyway.)

#30

That about details is true, and a piece with subtlety is much more entertaining, longer-lasting than an excessively simplified piece. While both are good, in my humble opinion, extra details show the artist put the effort into them, to add that extra character/longevity to their work, and that’s good.

I know what you’re saying about making sure the entire picture and composition is set before jumping in, too. Advice I received years ago was to keep the whole piece at the same level of detail throughout as you work along, because then places won’t get left behind, and you’ll feel the entire piece more as it progresses… a lot of ‘newbie’ artists—and I really don’t think I should be calling anyone that!—will, say, be working on a face, and do the most detailed eye, but then not know where to go because they’ve hardly sketched out the other areas yet, and the uneven weightedness can be distracting.

Little details are good, especially if it’s something no one’s ever going to see. If you up the brightness on a photograph, there are tons of details that were not lost in the shadows, just hidden. I like to turn up the brightness on my monitor and look at what details artists have put into the shadows and obscured portions of their piece… and with some of the more accomplished artists, like you, Enayla, I’m amazed. Your most recent Hajieelkhe, for example - at my regular gamma and crap, his right hand is very much in darkness, but it’s not like it isn’t there.

If an artist is going for much realism at all, they should definitely not overlook things like that, or simplify them too much. Photos still contain those hidden details, though the main focus may be defined, and films most definitely do.

#31

I totally agree. Your work definitely proves that point.

Having said that, I’m not sure if I understand the original question of this thread. Are we talking about complex details in one’s work, or are we talking about complicating a process that could otherwise be simplified? Perhaps Roberto could elaborate the question a bit more. What does it mean by “Why do some of us like to overcomplicate things?.” Give us an example of this.
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#32

In LOTR, they super-detailed the sets and costumes. Really micro detail. . . that nobody in the audience would pick up on. . . but the result was that the actors had an easier time getting into the “feel” of the movie (according to the Extended Edition making-of dvd) and so the tactile detail helped the acting. It made the LOTR world feel very real to the actors.

Of course, micro-detailing the lace tablecloth won’t help the scene any if the table is a box primitive.

#33

my observations lead me to believe that people overcomplicate their work to disguise their inadequacies in ability.

when one becomes a true master of their art, they can express their message with a very limited pallette.

#34

I interpreted the question as “Why overcomplicate things?” Not whether or not details are important. Basically, do what the work requires of you; don’t make things more difficult than they need to be. For example, attempting to draw every leaf in a tree versus breaking it down into basic shapes and values. When done correctly, the simpler way will look as realistic as you want it to be, and it would take 1/10 of the time as the long way.

It has little to do with adding details that hardly anyone would notice; instead, it’s about the process involved. Keep it simple. Don’t spend an hour on something when you can do it better in 30 seconds.

Really what it boils down to is knowing what the work requires. Sometimes you have to sit there and slowly render things for 30 hours. Sometimes you don’t. The trick is to learn when it’s appropriate and when it’s not.

#35

Since when is any creative endeavor simple–or anyone capable of keeping it all simple?
If you read any interview with any master creative minds past or present–ALL of them say that “It doesn’t get any easier, no matter how long you’ve been doing it.”

Ask any advanced artist, and they’ll tell you nothing is simple in art (or other creative endeavors). There is a lot to consider when tackling a piece of artwork–from the concept itself (which is already a complex subject that involves imagination, taste, and education), to the execution–which involves a lifetime of study and practice of complex subjects like quality of light, the science of color, the art of composition, the science of perspective, the science of anatomy, the artistic expression of figures, brushwork, line quality…etc. And all of these things have to work together, meaning changing one will affect the other. How is any of this simple?

#36

About a month ago I was talking to a buddy of mine who is a traditional cinematographer.
I have been to a couple sets where he films to learn a bit more about the production process.

As we worked he was complaining about how most CG artists he has dealt with overcomplicate shots.I asked him to elaborate and he explained how traditional filmmakers only concentrate on the elements that will be in front of the camera, and could care less about things that will never be seen by the camera.

He said that in his field of work they are interested in being able to produce the highest number of shot in the least amount of time, and over detailing a film set would kill the filming schedule.

-R

#37

I see your point, but I just want to offer one counter-example. Rostropovich, one of the top cellists in the world, was once asked what was most difficult about playing. He thought about it for a minute, and then he replied, “Nothing. It’s all easy.”

Also, the subject is not whether or not creating art is easy. “Easy” has nothing to do with it. The subject of the thread is why do folks make things more complicated than they need to be. An absurd example would be painting with the handle of the brush instead of the bristles for no reason other than one way is more difficult than the other. If the painting requires it, that’s one thing, but if not … don’t do it. Keep it simple.

#38

CGI is the art of the overthinker. In all but a few instances, CG is never the simplest ends to creating the image you have in mind. It involves heavy technical work and knowledge, lots of time, and the not-so-occasional mind-bending problems. It’s also new. People who are attracted to CG are attracted to the notion of a cutting-edge art and always want to try something new within it. Hence why every newbie looks hard for the best hair package before they even consider learning how to model a head. Most CGI artists are guilty of this to some degree. We keep doing overly complex stuff because the people who do CG enjoy doing overly complex things! It’s only partially about the results. Yeah I just needed a car to drive for 7 shots in my next animation… and it probably would have been easiest to simply keyframe its path, however it was much more fun and rewarding to build a complete dynamic car rig in XSI… because that complexity is what makes CG fun for me. :buttrock:

#39

I actually own and run a graphics art communtiy called tagmonkey that specializes in forum signitures. There are A LOT of newcomers to design and to cg art that post. It seems that most newcomers are overwhemled by learning new techniques and end up wanting to have all of their capabilities visible on one canvas.

I think they are more interested in showing off their technique than worrying about function or aesthetics.

#40

Simple, is a fundamentally complex narrative. The misunderstanding of ‘the nature of simple systems’, is the main cause of naiivity. Define “simple” first. Absorb the complexity of that notion, then seek it.

Simple, as a narrative is just like ‘love’, ‘hate’, ‘good’, ‘evil’, etc… fluff for an underdeveloped world recognition. Descriptive in nature, and inherently exclusive to a group of other narratives for the sole purpose of short-circuiting cognition.

This dialect seems to be a fluff by itself, by over"complicating" it. However, human history tells us otherwise. Humans tend to find the critical path more than any other species, reducing the phenomenon into parts, analysing them into smaller parts, and then somehow, by a magic wand everything click together into a THEORY.

Sir Isaac Newton himself, the greatest reductionist, fell a victim to history and myths. His genius was reduced to an apple fallen on his head.

IMO, “Simple” is a supernatural phenomenon that could only exist in my ignorant mind.

Excuse my language above, just a little bit frustrated with this dogmatic world that simplifies everything and act upon it.
'good weekend :slight_smile:

#41

After painting for a bit you will start to realize that in order to save time and energy, you keep it simple to get started then add more simple stuff like light and shadows and add more simple things like desturating some colors here and there. And in the long run you simple idea becomes complex.

And when you start things too complex, you tend to forget about the little details. And you will get headaches trying to do too much.

#42

Complexity is in the eye of the beholder. Okay, it is beauty, not complexity. But if you think complexity is what make it beautiful, then don’t wory about it. That is my kind of thinking. As long as you can balance between the time you are allocated, you can make it as complex as you want. Don’t do this if it will get you fired:D

In most cases, time is the important factor. People with great experience will pull off more in less time. Keeping it simple is one factor of their success, but that is just a minor portion of their talent. I believe most has to do with their eye for details. When I see a movie I might miss certain faults that an exceptional artist will recognize. This is something people develop being spending time to give all the details they think would make the work fit into their perception. This is not a talent or a natural ability, it is something people learn with hardwork.

The place I work we create software for many purpose. I can’t tell you enough how much of “re-invention” is done in company where millions (actually more than few millions) could have saved if it was well thought 2 years ago. That is the result of keeping things simple. They kept it simple, within the project’s scope, and now they just do the same for every project. We have over 300 projects each is simple and for each client. We have to make another one for another client, because noone wants to put in the extra work to unify the system. Some times extra details, placed well and brought in time can help in the furture. Whether it is heart’s content, achieving fame or saving money.

The most contradicting portion of this is the time. Unfortunately that is where the trade off comes and people who can’t find a nice proportion are the people who suffers most in a real production environment.

But at home, I spent all the time I can untill I am satified with the details even if it doesn’t make sense to others. I think there is nothing wrong with spending your time to make things complicated if you think that complexity is needed.

#43

I just finished John Lanchester’s most recent novel, Fragrant Harbour
somewhere says
“why making things too difficult… pushing a bit more we can make them just impossible!”

#44

This pretty much sums up my rigs, my character rigs havent change for around 2 years. There getting cleaner, ive add things like animatable pivots etc - ive tried to add new things but they just either doesnt work or are a copy of what ive had.

eek

#45

Very true. For many people, it is only in their old age (or having been through a lot of hardship) that they acquire the ability to simplify life’s many complexities. It’s widely known that the simple things are usually the hardest things. To simply preach “Keep It Simple Stupid!” is a bit naive–it’s like preacing “Be A Genius!”

#46

There is also an interesting relationship between what is recognized as “beautiful” and “simple”

Take the interface design as an example. The iPod, MacOS, Nokia navigation menu, CGTalk :wink: , Mercedes Benz, Nikon, Victoria Secret laces…these are incredibly complex operating devices yet have incredibly intuitive interfaces. That does not make them “simple” at all. They are easier to operate yes, but that’s because the designer has put an extraordinary effort to extrapolate the complexities, and produce a pattern withwhich it can be synchronized with human intuition.

The KISS notion needs nails for its coffin :smiley: Bring it on…

#47

Art is like music. Though the melody of a musical piece might be simple, there is still a whole lot of stuff going on in the background, like the bass, which isn’t really as noticeable if you aren’t a musician-- unless it’s not there when it needs to be, in which case everyone notices it.