The C4D-NGen1-ReVision Design Brief : No More MSA's - Product Restructuring


Yes, I think of c4d as my hub too.

Let’s not forget: Pro level Max and Maya users also buy Substance Designer, Painter and Zbrush to round out their toolset. And they use external renderers. They also turn to Houdini for advanced fluids, destruction, crowds and efx.

I think of 3d like medicine: there is your family doctor, a generalist…and also specialists you might need to go see.


Ask us in August but signs are at least trending in the right direction. R20 is allegedly “the big one,” so whatever it ends up being we’ll see if we get most of the way towards where most of us want Cinema to be, or if it’s more piecemeal improvements that are good generally, but not what anyone has been asking for specifically.


My situation as well
C4D is the final staging ground
for lighting and rendering my uncompressed targas
to be sent to After effects CS for compositing,colorgrading
and other VFX.

My Character animation work is done with Iclone 6.5 pipeline
using Daz genesis rigs.-MDD to C4D studio.

Clothing /garment simulation Daz Optitex-MDD to C4D studio
Auto lipsinc from imported audio files Daz genesis -MDD to C4D studio.
Character ragdoll physics, Endorphin to Daz genesis -MDD to C4D
Fluid /water simulation Realflow into C4D via the plugins.

Need fairly realistic volumetric Smoke& Fire?
FBX my Cameras to Lightwave 2015 create the smoke /fire
Composite with C4D render in After effects CS.

For my modeling needs(Creation of my own Daz genesis clothing)
C4D is sufficient but I do have an old seat of MODO for Sculpting
custom morphs for Daz genesis figures

Excluding Daz & Iclone all of my apps are quite Old yet still
provide the functionality I need for my creative objectives
Not paying MSA or any Autodesk subs.

Don’t bloody care about what “might” be in R20.


As mentioned in the blog, R20 is internally a significant change to the degree that plugins will need to be tweaked and recompiled; and from a personal view I think R20 is looking to be a great update. But that said, please don’t expect the second coming of the messiah. There will be no wine and loaves, it is still the C4D you are used to.


i also as c4d user like the MSA i must say, have it since it exists,
it not forces me to update (as autodesk does with 3dmax, i did quit my max subascription this year as i dislike their new terms and huge cost increase)
as i coudl cancle the MSA easy, but it saves me around 100.- every year on update cost+ extra bonus things (and i woudl update anyway)

for the “rewrite”, wasnt there the official post from maxon here in cgtalk that they do exact a new/refreshed code base for many parts of the c4d core, since some longer time or even years now?
but in an intelligent way, not to break any at once, by step by step…?


[quote=]i also as c4d user like the MSA i must say, have it since it exists,
it not forces me to update (as autodesk does with 3dmax, i did quit my max
subascription this year as i dislike their new terms and huge cost
as i coudl cancle the MSA easy, but it saves me around 100.- every year on update cost+ extra bonus things (and i woudl update

for the “rewrite”, wasnt there the official post from maxon here in cgtalk that they do exact a new/refreshed code base for
many parts of the c4d core, since some longer time or even years now?
but in an intelligent way, not to break any at once, by step by step…?[/quote]

Picking up on the cost of ownership of Cinema 4D, if I had decided to pick up
on Maxon’s yearly maintenance cost to stay current to this day from the
version I have now, the calculation is around £3595 !!!.. and that’s from R12 to R19.
That’s pretty crazy compared to other software, and I honestly can’t see how that could
be possibly good value.

ZBrush 4 I picked up for as little as £250 from another user of it, way back in 2011
and I’ve never had to pay for a single upgrade of it since then, I’m amazed.

Like some others here that have posted, I’ve really began to find my feet with it,
particularly the modelling side which has matured and I’ve adapt workflows
that I normally have with Cinema 4D R11.5, incorporating the link with GOZ.

Photoshop CS6 hasn’t increased in cost either from the £630 I paid for it, just before it went full CC.

In the past year I discovered Blackmagics Fusion 9, and I was blown away
by what it is able to provide, even in the free version ( or £215
commercial version ), which even allows importation of Cinema 4D models
into it’s 3D environment most notably and converge if you excuse the
pun, the magic it’s able to provide within the VFX motion arena.

I wasn’t aware of this program back in 2015, but it’s exactly the sort of
thing I’d have expected Cinema 4D to have embraced by now in this field,
at least at a primary level.

Also in contrast, the professional production software I use for my music cost’s as little as £130 for big
1.0 upgrades and that’s after 4 years of free maintenance updates and
point .5 updates between them.

Is Cinema 4D forever going to be a jack of all trades but master of none for an eternity ? I remember back
in the day Bodypaint was promoted to be the epitome of Maxon’s strengths with no equal…things obviously changed with the rise of other software.

When R20 finally drops, I’ll be putting it under my microscope, and to see
if Cinema 4D is ever worth investing in again, I do fear it won’t be and
I’ll forever be using 11.5 for an eternity with other reasonably priced

I’ve always hated what they did with the castrated stair cased structuring of the program from R12 onwards. It’s truly horrible…even just to look at it.


“Maxon’s yearly maintenance cost to stay current to this day from the
version I have now, the calculation is around £3595 !!!.. and that’s from R12 to R19.”

well that is only 500.- per year for the studio bundle, 12-19 is a 7 year period, and that’s A LOT LESS than 3d max or maya update cost per year, p.e which are the comparable products out there
also the adobe stuff costs a lot more to keep up-to-date

if you compare it to some cad apps many use, where you pay like 1500+ per year , quite a bargain

in end if we are not willing to pay the developments (maxon has also to pay the devs etc) we will not be able to get good updates, thats a very simple maths.
the maxon update costs are very fair so far i believe.


8 years of Maya is £13,150


There are many perspectives to come from, and the cost side of things this was one of the reason I jumped to C4D over Maya before it went purely rental. As it turns I would have been out the upgrade cycle for Maya long ago which reinforces my belief that C4D was a good investment.

Now just because C4D lines up well in this comparison price point it dont mean its cheap, the fact is non of them are, they are all over priced because studios will pay for it. The freelancer things get a bit tighter, then the hobbyist in due course they will get pushed out altogether as the price creeps up, and up, but as Iv noticed many dont even own a legit licence who come over to the cafe.

Where I think Maxon is really missing out is old users. 3 versions without a upgrade and your out. These users should not be put on the band wagon as a competitive cross grade they should be given a much better offer as in the end it gets these users back on the MSA. Not forgetting Cinevercity, it has much value in which some of the scripts.plugins could be sold as plugins alone. The forum is very helpful, and the depth of knowledge even via older videos are still very valid, iv learnt heaps from Brett Bays.

Scott there has been some big additions to C4D since v12, it just depends on if the additions are of benifit to you which I can understand if some are not. I do hope r20 is a substantial upgrade in general in which all users benefit from, but I have to except that I will not benifit as much as others as I have external apps dealing with other dedicated areas in which C4D cant be expected to compete with so for me “a minority” to gain from r20 it would have to be in the modelling department, and character animation improvements, and overall speed. If they have the stats in front of them showing how many users they that left with older versions, they would do well to give them a substantial discount to r20 to get them back on board.



I wouldn’t say they’re all overpriced. You’ve got to keep in mind economies of scale involved. You can get photoshop for £20 per month, but consider the development costs are split amongst 5+ million users. 3D is a much smaller niche, the big apps have between 50k-200k users, both photoshop and a 3D app will have 50-100 programmers working on them. £240 per year for photoshop, £620 per year for c4d; considering they both have to pay a similar amount for the development, c4d actually comes in relatively cheap given the smaller number of users paying into the development fund.

This bit we can agree on. Im fine for the cost to go up the longer you leave it, but having a sudden cut off point of needing the rebuy the whole thing sucks.


If Cinema 4D was more affordable, (i.e a hell of a lot cheaper, not the price of a new car) , there would be more people that would be buying it rather than using pirated copies. Making it commercially available to all computer/software stores online like Ebuyer, Scan, or even frigging Tesco…and you would have a huge consumer market to develop for, instead of a tiny percentage of the world and 3D software market as it currently is and from there, you open the opportunity for capital investment to pay for more development and innovation. Freezing users out from upgrading in the future is ridiculous as well. With Prpellerheads Reason 1.0 for example, which was first released in 2001, if you bought it for £290 back then, I could if I was still on that version, still upgrade for the same price as someone who was on Reason 9.5 to version 10 and that’s not 8, but 17 years later lol.

If other software companies can do it, there’s no reason why Maxon can’t.


If I were a pirate who doesn’t want to pay 3600$, why should I pay 360$ either? How low must the price be to attract spontaneous, “kinda serious”, “experimental” or learning customers in addition to the rest of the customer base? If I make my software cheaper by a factor of ten, I need ten times as many paying customers just to keep the baseline. Is that feasible? Is there a need? How many pirates are there who could be converted? At what price point? Where’s the sweet spot? How complex may a software be if it aims at the masses? How would it affect the support?

There are a lot of questions around that wild guess… and remember, once you go down with the price, it would be extremely difficult to raise it again if the results turn out to be unsatisfying.


Like Scot, I still use Studio 11.5

To be honest I am less bothered at the prospect of having to
Buy my way back into R20 at full price and more bothered
at likely having to( again)buy into all of R20 compatible external solutions
( Xparticles etc… ) just to get a new R20 based pipeline
back up to the Capabilities I have already Cobbled with R11.5
and my many external Apps over the years.

Particularly in the Areas of Character motion creation, retargeting
lipsinc& Dynamic Garment simulation etc.

These are the areas that Maxon has consistantly shown ZERO interest in being competitive with Applications that cost less.

And from the sound of things, this core rewrite may break alot of existing external plugins (for a while at least)giving me even more
pause not to consider jumping into a potential upgrade Quagmire

For other Applications upgrading always brings an increase in my Focus area capabilities… not so much the case with C4D.


By keeping the price very high, you are by the very essence, limiting the numbers of software to be sold. By lowering the cost, you open the door to having the product sell by a factor of 20 to 30 or more than the factor of 10 in which the price is cut. Just look at Affinity Photo & Designer by Serif, a direct competitor to Photoshop / Illustrator… they are just £48 each and that’s without any subscription.

In 2002 I upgraded from a fully functional version of C4D 5.5 provided by PC Format magazine to version 6 for as little as £200, I didn’t question it… £200 to £400 for a commercial piece of 3D software from a general consumer point of view is reasonable. The world is changing, it’s pretty messed up and economies are in dire strates (not the band), around Europe…just look at Greece…South America… Most people don’t use pirated software because they want to rip off a company, but because they want to learn and improve their life and others, and some simply have no choice.

There isn’t even a free cut down version that works fully without watermarks any more for users to use… there is no incentive even for people who otherwise wouldn’t have looked at getting into the 3D creation world. There’s one thing of companies making money and there’s another thing of companies that don’t give a damn about the end users, and the product they deliver.


That’s just guesswork without real numbers to back that claim up. You don’t even know the number of potential 3D users which by nature would be a ceiling for all combined sales. You’re just providing wishful thinking because other companies with other products in other fields do it differently. I can’t even call it a discussion because neither you nor me have any figures to support any solid calculation.

I suppose in this changed world you would download Blender now instead of using a free magazine CD version. And that’s fine too.


It’s simple maths and economics…not rocket science… :smiley:

And oh , yes I did use Blender way back then (2001-02), along with True Space and a few others… In fact I still have the Amiga floppy disk version from 1995 sitting in a box a few feet away… of Cinema 4D.


Without real numbers, it’s neither, actually.
And the less said about that diagram, the better.


Here’s some real numbers relating to what Blackmagic did with one of their products, not too long ago.


All this is assuming that all products are equally useable for all customers and that there is no ceiling for the number of possible customers.
The problem is that with rising complexity of the software the number of potential customers decreases quite a lot.
3D DCC software is a niche within a niche, you can broaden the niche by creating variations of your product that cater different types of customers, but the over all pool of possible customers is still the same. Pointing to the size of a different niche doesn’t validate anything here.
The 3D DCC market is not saturated by any means, but it is also not easy to generate new sales.
While for many small time and hobby users the asking price for the software is a big factor this is not true at all for most bigger businesses. For them the over all cost of generating the content they want and the time it takes are the deciding factors. Compared to manpower, training costs, fixed costs etc. the price for the software becomes just one more item on a long list. Most private users never have to do this calculation.
One thing that helps Maxon selling licenses is the MSA. The reason for that is totally alien to private users. Corporate users have a hard time justifying new investments. For them getting an upgrade is a fight against accountants and procurement rules and a rinse repeat every year. The MSA allows them to do the fight once and then they can spend their time on being productive.
Just an example on how the price was not important and neither was any specific feature of the software, but the effect is noticeable. Also it is a good reason why the MSA is here to stay :wink:


Blackmagic is a Hardware Company. They Sell Software underpriced to promote their Hardware. That is the same like Apple giving their Software away for Free. Thats not at all the same as the Business of MAXON.