The C4D-NGen1-ReVision Design Brief : No More MSA's - Product Restructuring


#33

Like Scot, I still use Studio 11.5

To be honest I am less bothered at the prospect of having to
Buy my way back into R20 at full price and more bothered
at likely having to( again)buy into all of R20 compatible external solutions
( Xparticles etc… ) just to get a new R20 based pipeline
back up to the Capabilities I have already Cobbled with R11.5
and my many external Apps over the years.

Particularly in the Areas of Character motion creation, retargeting
lipsinc& Dynamic Garment simulation etc.

These are the areas that Maxon has consistantly shown ZERO interest in being competitive with Applications that cost less.

And from the sound of things, this core rewrite may break alot of existing external plugins (for a while at least)giving me even more
pause not to consider jumping into a potential upgrade Quagmire

For other Applications upgrading always brings an increase in my Focus area capabilities… not so much the case with C4D.


#34

By keeping the price very high, you are by the very essence, limiting the numbers of software to be sold. By lowering the cost, you open the door to having the product sell by a factor of 20 to 30 or more than the factor of 10 in which the price is cut. Just look at Affinity Photo & Designer by Serif, a direct competitor to Photoshop / Illustrator… they are just £48 each and that’s without any subscription.

In 2002 I upgraded from a fully functional version of C4D 5.5 provided by PC Format magazine to version 6 for as little as £200, I didn’t question it… £200 to £400 for a commercial piece of 3D software from a general consumer point of view is reasonable. The world is changing, it’s pretty messed up and economies are in dire strates (not the band), around Europe…just look at Greece…South America… Most people don’t use pirated software because they want to rip off a company, but because they want to learn and improve their life and others, and some simply have no choice.

There isn’t even a free cut down version that works fully without watermarks any more for users to use… there is no incentive even for people who otherwise wouldn’t have looked at getting into the 3D creation world. There’s one thing of companies making money and there’s another thing of companies that don’t give a damn about the end users, and the product they deliver.


#35

That’s just guesswork without real numbers to back that claim up. You don’t even know the number of potential 3D users which by nature would be a ceiling for all combined sales. You’re just providing wishful thinking because other companies with other products in other fields do it differently. I can’t even call it a discussion because neither you nor me have any figures to support any solid calculation.

I suppose in this changed world you would download Blender now instead of using a free magazine CD version. And that’s fine too.


#36

It’s simple maths and economics…not rocket science… :smiley:

And oh , yes I did use Blender way back then (2001-02), along with True Space and a few others… In fact I still have the Amiga floppy disk version from 1995 sitting in a box a few feet away… of Cinema 4D.


#37

Without real numbers, it’s neither, actually.
And the less said about that diagram, the better.


#38

Here’s some real numbers relating to what Blackmagic did with one of their products, not too long ago.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/blackmagic-design-fusion-9-announced/


#39

All this is assuming that all products are equally useable for all customers and that there is no ceiling for the number of possible customers.
The problem is that with rising complexity of the software the number of potential customers decreases quite a lot.
3D DCC software is a niche within a niche, you can broaden the niche by creating variations of your product that cater different types of customers, but the over all pool of possible customers is still the same. Pointing to the size of a different niche doesn’t validate anything here.
The 3D DCC market is not saturated by any means, but it is also not easy to generate new sales.
While for many small time and hobby users the asking price for the software is a big factor this is not true at all for most bigger businesses. For them the over all cost of generating the content they want and the time it takes are the deciding factors. Compared to manpower, training costs, fixed costs etc. the price for the software becomes just one more item on a long list. Most private users never have to do this calculation.
One thing that helps Maxon selling licenses is the MSA. The reason for that is totally alien to private users. Corporate users have a hard time justifying new investments. For them getting an upgrade is a fight against accountants and procurement rules and a rinse repeat every year. The MSA allows them to do the fight once and then they can spend their time on being productive.
Just an example on how the price was not important and neither was any specific feature of the software, but the effect is noticeable. Also it is a good reason why the MSA is here to stay :wink:


#40

Blackmagic is a Hardware Company. They Sell Software underpriced to promote their Hardware. That is the same like Apple giving their Software away for Free. Thats not at all the same as the Business of MAXON.


#41

Yes and also the point Srek made that there are many more potential video editors than 3D users even if 3D printing might make them closer in the future.


#42

It’s not a good example . Adobe will fit better here :slight_smile:
Ok. I want to become a legit customer . But $3,695.00 for Cinema 4D Studio will cost me a leg and arm to pay at once .
Other versions like Prime,broadcast are just a joke.
I can pay 1000$ just right now but for what, Cinema 4D Prime?
There are short term licenses but they are not available in my country.
I don’t ask to make c4d 50$ per month.
I am using Maya legally for 150$ per month right now.
I am using pirated c4d too.
I have a lot of cool work made with c4d but i am not posting it because …i am a c4d pirate.

I am a legit customer of insydium, jawset,otoy,redshift because i can afford they products.

I will be more than happy if maxon can give me option to use c4d Studio version for $150 per month until i pay full price and receive permanent license .
Because i am not a big studio .

Maxon representative can freely contact me to discuss it or to sew me . you choose.
Sry,English is not my native language.

In this topic someone is selling his r17 studio license for 1000$
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=47&t=1490601
Why Maxon can’t do it ?


#43

I agree. But I not have a different price (price) for individual users and another one (bigger) for business? In my case, I convinced my last company to buy two versions of Cinema 4D Studio, which is something in a country where most people pirate the software (Brazil). But as a individual, I only had the money to buy the BodyPaint version (and I’m still in version r18). I think the lone individual should have to pay only something like U$300 by the Studio version.


#44

There is no legitimate, rational business reason for Maxon to lower its pricing
or drop the MSA scheme.
They clearly have a core group of loyalists who work primarily
in the broadcast and Arch vis industry and are willing to pay what C4D costs.

Much like Apple and the Iphone users.

If indeed Arch vis and broadcast graphics is your focus area,
Cinema4D is still your best option frankly.

Character animators,Game content devs &VFX artist for film production are already using Houdini , Maya or even Max still.
And they are so doing because of the Tools in those other apps
not because they Can’t afford C4D.


#45

4 Years on…No more MSA’s :wink:


#46

You win. Hope you’re happy.


#47

It’s a bit of an irony though, even Srek dismissed the idea of them being dropped, but the reality is that Maxon came back with something more evil than MSA’s… It wasn’t part of the ownership strategy I layed out some years back as listed above… I’ve been using Cinema 4D since 1995 on the Amiga ( still have the cover disk for R2.0 ), from R6.0 to R11.5 XL, there was about 2.5K on upgrades and modules I had spent to get there… but the tides changed from R12. I still have over 300 plugins / extensions between 32 Bit & 64 Bit versions of C4D, Including one for Copying & Pasting polygons and points, something Maxon are calling a new core feature in R21 lol. To quote their website " Modeling Core Updates

You’ll enjoy improvements to primitives and several key modeling tools as part of the ongoing migration to Cinema 4D’s new modeling core. It’s now possible to copy and paste points and polygons between objects and scenes."

I’ve managed to integrate ZBrush into my workflow now for detailed modelling of things like space ships and city scapes and I’m on the latest version…Still not paid any more since I first bought it back in 2011 vie another user for less than £250…

Blender 2.8 looks to be more inviting and standardised, and unsurprisingly more next gen than what 11.5 has to offer and perhaps even that of what the latest version of C4D has. So that will be exciting to see how I can integrate the tools I have into it… I still feel Blender 2.8 is still holding one arm round my back somewhat although a bit more loosley than before with the GUI but with Ubisoft investing in development of it now , the future is looking much brighter, and perhaps more so than it’s ever been.

I just hope Pixologic doesn’t go the same route Adobe/Maxon has…


#48

Still better than listing six separate keyboard shortcuts as features. Oh wait…

On the one hand, I agree, much in this release seems a bugfix or a long-missed matter-of-course. On the other hand, I think that the core changes are showing, and I will be happy to have the new version, even more so if the timeline now works as fast as some people reported. I loved my C4D for many little reasons, and since I tricked it out with plugins, I don’t even feel the lack as much.

It’s the subscription stuff (plus the apparent disinterest in continuing the perpetuals) that caught my ire first and foremost. Being pushed away after defending the company. Paying and never owning anything. No, I’m not subscribing, forget the idea.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light…


#49

I’m still opening up files and projects from 9 / 10 years ago, stuff that I spend a lot of time creating… Adopting the subscription route and Maxon have you by the balls… I really cound’t care if Maxon fall on their own sword because of this change to subscription… I bought Adobe Photoshop CS6 for £620 in 2013 right before they went CC because when I pay for something, I expect to own it, all the hundreds of hours I may spend using it are those of my existence on earth, they don’t belong to any company to be taken away when they choose.

I warned people about the way Maxon was going when R12 came on the scene and I was pretty much right about everything ever since… ( some of the the ever faithful fanboi’s didn’t listen…but there you go…

Grayscale Gorrila uses a NFR version, as does Mash… they are very quiet because they probably don’t know where they stand yet…and need to watch their back.

As for Cinema 4D that I still ‘own’, I brought a new graphics card a few months back to help manage bigger scenes and take advantage of new technologies. I made a video on that…

Also if Cinema 4D forums were not dead enough already, when this **** really hits the fan in Sept, they will be like graveyards of old posts… even having to pay to get access to one seems incredulous…


#50

I have watched this drama unfold as “an external observer” who never payed MSA.

Still running 11.5 studio heavily plugged with
Vray ,Realflow ,Thrausi (to name a few)
and using Riptide Pro to import,Iclone animated speaking, cloth simmed ,Daz Characters for rendering
in AR 3 or Vray.

I one have one theoretical question out of curiosity.

Why would a person, with my status ,not be able to open his old files if he opted for the monthly sub to jump to R21??


#51

Two different cases. First (independently of the whole subscription matter) C4D’s file format has been changed, and the new versions do no longer load stuff from a certain version downward. I think that was R12, so it would affect you (no guarantee). For that however there is a converter.

With the subscription, you could open all your files as long as you pay. Once you don’t pay, you don’t have access to the application, and therefore not to your files. As 3D file formats are pretty much proprietary, it would be difficult to open them with another software either (unlike, say, Photoshop files if you don’t have Photoshop). So, the files are bricked unless you pay again.


#52

Right then.
Thank you for the clarification Mate,

I have seat of Lightwave 2015 ,on my win 7 PC, that natively
( without plugins ), supports
My Iclone/Daz/MDD/Alembic Character animation pipeline.
and despite its Loss of "status "in the industry,
LW already has Fields ,Volumetrics ,smoke/pyro.
Thus when My old Mac finally dies and takes my C4D R11.5 to the grave with it ,I shall be fully ready to migrate completely to my window’s boxes and continue onward.