The C4D-NGen1-ReVision Design Brief : No More MSA's - Product Restructuring


#28

8 years of Maya is £13,150


#29

There are many perspectives to come from, and the cost side of things this was one of the reason I jumped to C4D over Maya before it went purely rental. As it turns I would have been out the upgrade cycle for Maya long ago which reinforces my belief that C4D was a good investment.

Now just because C4D lines up well in this comparison price point it dont mean its cheap, the fact is non of them are, they are all over priced because studios will pay for it. The freelancer things get a bit tighter, then the hobbyist in due course they will get pushed out altogether as the price creeps up, and up, but as Iv noticed many dont even own a legit licence who come over to the cafe.

Where I think Maxon is really missing out is old users. 3 versions without a upgrade and your out. These users should not be put on the band wagon as a competitive cross grade they should be given a much better offer as in the end it gets these users back on the MSA. Not forgetting Cinevercity, it has much value in which some of the scripts.plugins could be sold as plugins alone. The forum is very helpful, and the depth of knowledge even via older videos are still very valid, iv learnt heaps from Brett Bays.

Scott there has been some big additions to C4D since v12, it just depends on if the additions are of benifit to you which I can understand if some are not. I do hope r20 is a substantial upgrade in general in which all users benefit from, but I have to except that I will not benifit as much as others as I have external apps dealing with other dedicated areas in which C4D cant be expected to compete with so for me “a minority” to gain from r20 it would have to be in the modelling department, and character animation improvements, and overall speed. If they have the stats in front of them showing how many users they that left with older versions, they would do well to give them a substantial discount to r20 to get them back on board.

Dan


#30

I wouldn’t say they’re all overpriced. You’ve got to keep in mind economies of scale involved. You can get photoshop for £20 per month, but consider the development costs are split amongst 5+ million users. 3D is a much smaller niche, the big apps have between 50k-200k users, both photoshop and a 3D app will have 50-100 programmers working on them. £240 per year for photoshop, £620 per year for c4d; considering they both have to pay a similar amount for the development, c4d actually comes in relatively cheap given the smaller number of users paying into the development fund.

This bit we can agree on. Im fine for the cost to go up the longer you leave it, but having a sudden cut off point of needing the rebuy the whole thing sucks.


#31

If Cinema 4D was more affordable, (i.e a hell of a lot cheaper, not the price of a new car) , there would be more people that would be buying it rather than using pirated copies. Making it commercially available to all computer/software stores online like Ebuyer, Scan, or even frigging Tesco…and you would have a huge consumer market to develop for, instead of a tiny percentage of the world and 3D software market as it currently is and from there, you open the opportunity for capital investment to pay for more development and innovation. Freezing users out from upgrading in the future is ridiculous as well. With Prpellerheads Reason 1.0 for example, which was first released in 2001, if you bought it for £290 back then, I could if I was still on that version, still upgrade for the same price as someone who was on Reason 9.5 to version 10 and that’s not 8, but 17 years later lol.

If other software companies can do it, there’s no reason why Maxon can’t.


#32

If I were a pirate who doesn’t want to pay 3600$, why should I pay 360$ either? How low must the price be to attract spontaneous, “kinda serious”, “experimental” or learning customers in addition to the rest of the customer base? If I make my software cheaper by a factor of ten, I need ten times as many paying customers just to keep the baseline. Is that feasible? Is there a need? How many pirates are there who could be converted? At what price point? Where’s the sweet spot? How complex may a software be if it aims at the masses? How would it affect the support?

There are a lot of questions around that wild guess… and remember, once you go down with the price, it would be extremely difficult to raise it again if the results turn out to be unsatisfying.


#33

Like Scot, I still use Studio 11.5

To be honest I am less bothered at the prospect of having to
Buy my way back into R20 at full price and more bothered
at likely having to( again)buy into all of R20 compatible external solutions
( Xparticles etc… ) just to get a new R20 based pipeline
back up to the Capabilities I have already Cobbled with R11.5
and my many external Apps over the years.

Particularly in the Areas of Character motion creation, retargeting
lipsinc& Dynamic Garment simulation etc.

These are the areas that Maxon has consistantly shown ZERO interest in being competitive with Applications that cost less.

And from the sound of things, this core rewrite may break alot of existing external plugins (for a while at least)giving me even more
pause not to consider jumping into a potential upgrade Quagmire

For other Applications upgrading always brings an increase in my Focus area capabilities… not so much the case with C4D.


#34

By keeping the price very high, you are by the very essence, limiting the numbers of software to be sold. By lowering the cost, you open the door to having the product sell by a factor of 20 to 30 or more than the factor of 10 in which the price is cut. Just look at Affinity Photo & Designer by Serif, a direct competitor to Photoshop / Illustrator… they are just £48 each and that’s without any subscription.

In 2002 I upgraded from a fully functional version of C4D 5.5 provided by PC Format magazine to version 6 for as little as £200, I didn’t question it… £200 to £400 for a commercial piece of 3D software from a general consumer point of view is reasonable. The world is changing, it’s pretty messed up and economies are in dire strates (not the band), around Europe…just look at Greece…South America… Most people don’t use pirated software because they want to rip off a company, but because they want to learn and improve their life and others, and some simply have no choice.

There isn’t even a free cut down version that works fully without watermarks any more for users to use… there is no incentive even for people who otherwise wouldn’t have looked at getting into the 3D creation world. There’s one thing of companies making money and there’s another thing of companies that don’t give a damn about the end users, and the product they deliver.


#35

That’s just guesswork without real numbers to back that claim up. You don’t even know the number of potential 3D users which by nature would be a ceiling for all combined sales. You’re just providing wishful thinking because other companies with other products in other fields do it differently. I can’t even call it a discussion because neither you nor me have any figures to support any solid calculation.

I suppose in this changed world you would download Blender now instead of using a free magazine CD version. And that’s fine too.


#36

It’s simple maths and economics…not rocket science… :smiley:

And oh , yes I did use Blender way back then (2001-02), along with True Space and a few others… In fact I still have the Amiga floppy disk version from 1995 sitting in a box a few feet away… of Cinema 4D.


#37

Without real numbers, it’s neither, actually.
And the less said about that diagram, the better.


#38

Here’s some real numbers relating to what Blackmagic did with one of their products, not too long ago.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/blackmagic-design-fusion-9-announced/


#39

All this is assuming that all products are equally useable for all customers and that there is no ceiling for the number of possible customers.
The problem is that with rising complexity of the software the number of potential customers decreases quite a lot.
3D DCC software is a niche within a niche, you can broaden the niche by creating variations of your product that cater different types of customers, but the over all pool of possible customers is still the same. Pointing to the size of a different niche doesn’t validate anything here.
The 3D DCC market is not saturated by any means, but it is also not easy to generate new sales.
While for many small time and hobby users the asking price for the software is a big factor this is not true at all for most bigger businesses. For them the over all cost of generating the content they want and the time it takes are the deciding factors. Compared to manpower, training costs, fixed costs etc. the price for the software becomes just one more item on a long list. Most private users never have to do this calculation.
One thing that helps Maxon selling licenses is the MSA. The reason for that is totally alien to private users. Corporate users have a hard time justifying new investments. For them getting an upgrade is a fight against accountants and procurement rules and a rinse repeat every year. The MSA allows them to do the fight once and then they can spend their time on being productive.
Just an example on how the price was not important and neither was any specific feature of the software, but the effect is noticeable. Also it is a good reason why the MSA is here to stay :wink:


#40

Blackmagic is a Hardware Company. They Sell Software underpriced to promote their Hardware. That is the same like Apple giving their Software away for Free. Thats not at all the same as the Business of MAXON.


#41

Yes and also the point Srek made that there are many more potential video editors than 3D users even if 3D printing might make them closer in the future.


#42

It’s not a good example . Adobe will fit better here :slight_smile:
Ok. I want to become a legit customer . But $3,695.00 for Cinema 4D Studio will cost me a leg and arm to pay at once .
Other versions like Prime,broadcast are just a joke.
I can pay 1000$ just right now but for what, Cinema 4D Prime?
There are short term licenses but they are not available in my country.
I don’t ask to make c4d 50$ per month.
I am using Maya legally for 150$ per month right now.
I am using pirated c4d too.
I have a lot of cool work made with c4d but i am not posting it because …i am a c4d pirate.

I am a legit customer of insydium, jawset,otoy,redshift because i can afford they products.

I will be more than happy if maxon can give me option to use c4d Studio version for $150 per month until i pay full price and receive permanent license .
Because i am not a big studio .

Maxon representative can freely contact me to discuss it or to sew me . you choose.
Sry,English is not my native language.

In this topic someone is selling his r17 studio license for 1000$
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=47&t=1490601
Why Maxon can’t do it ?


#43

I agree. But I not have a different price (price) for individual users and another one (bigger) for business? In my case, I convinced my last company to buy two versions of Cinema 4D Studio, which is something in a country where most people pirate the software (Brazil). But as a individual, I only had the money to buy the BodyPaint version (and I’m still in version r18). I think the lone individual should have to pay only something like U$300 by the Studio version.


#44

There is no legitimate, rational business reason for Maxon to lower its pricing
or drop the MSA scheme.
They clearly have a core group of loyalists who work primarily
in the broadcast and Arch vis industry and are willing to pay what C4D costs.

Much like Apple and the Iphone users.

If indeed Arch vis and broadcast graphics is your focus area,
Cinema4D is still your best option frankly.

Character animators,Game content devs &VFX artist for film production are already using Houdini , Maya or even Max still.
And they are so doing because of the Tools in those other apps
not because they Can’t afford C4D.


#45

4 Years on…No more MSA’s :wink:


#46

You win. Hope you’re happy.


#47

It’s a bit of an irony though, even Srek dismissed the idea of them being dropped, but the reality is that Maxon came back with something more evil than MSA’s… It wasn’t part of the ownership strategy I layed out some years back as listed above… I’ve been using Cinema 4D since 1995 on the Amiga ( still have the cover disk for R2.0 ), from R6.0 to R11.5 XL, there was about 2.5K on upgrades and modules I had spent to get there… but the tides changed from R12. I still have over 300 plugins / extensions between 32 Bit & 64 Bit versions of C4D, Including one for Copying & Pasting polygons and points, something Maxon are calling a new core feature in R21 lol. To quote their website " Modeling Core Updates

You’ll enjoy improvements to primitives and several key modeling tools as part of the ongoing migration to Cinema 4D’s new modeling core. It’s now possible to copy and paste points and polygons between objects and scenes."

I’ve managed to integrate ZBrush into my workflow now for detailed modelling of things like space ships and city scapes and I’m on the latest version…Still not paid any more since I first bought it back in 2011 vie another user for less than £250…

Blender 2.8 looks to be more inviting and standardised, and unsurprisingly more next gen than what 11.5 has to offer and perhaps even that of what the latest version of C4D has. So that will be exciting to see how I can integrate the tools I have into it… I still feel Blender 2.8 is still holding one arm round my back somewhat although a bit more loosley than before with the GUI but with Ubisoft investing in development of it now , the future is looking much brighter, and perhaps more so than it’s ever been.

I just hope Pixologic doesn’t go the same route Adobe/Maxon has…