STARWARS Episode2 - What a bad Movie...

#113

any reason you resurrected this thread to speak to yourself?

talk about whine.

#114

STAR WARS-bashing seems to have become fashionable since 1999, which is
telling because up until THE PHANTOM MENACE was released that year, STAR WARS had been riding high on a wave of nostalgia after having been dormant since the mid-1980s.

The relatively lukewarm (no pun intended, honest) public response to THE
PHANTOM MENACE and ATTACK OF THE CLONES might be an example of the
STAR WARS franchise suffering from the consequences of its own success
during the late 1970s and early 1980s - the creation of unrealistic and unmeetable expectations resulting from the nostalgia of a generation that has
become considerably more cynical and sophisticated since EPISODES IV-VI were released during 1977-1983.

To understand why many people don’t think EPISODES I and II live up to EPISODES IV-VI, despite their (in my opinion) being equally good movies, you
have to look at the historical context in which these movies were released.
When STAR WARS: EPISODE IV (A NEW HOPE) was released in 1977, it was
truly a revolutionary moment in the way films were made and marketed. Quite
simply, before STAR WARS, there had never been a film (or a filmgoing experience) quite like it. The most sophisticated science-fiction
cinematography up to that point had been Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A SPACE
ODYSSEY (1969), and while that remains an impressive benchmark in its own
right, it didn’t wow people in 1969 the way the STAR WARS wowed people in
1977. STAR WARS was so far ahead of the game in terms of SFX and sci-fi movie concept in 1977 that there wasn’t even anyone in the same ballpark (although the rest of Hollywood would catch up quickly, with Steven Spielberg’s CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE 3RD KIND in 1978 and E.T. four years after that). This largely remained true through 1980 and 1983, when THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK (EPISODE V) and RETURN OF THE JEDI (EPISODE VI) were released. STAR WARS captured the imagination of many people between the ages of 5 and 30 during the period from 1977 - 1983, especially those closer to 5 than to 30. There was nothing quite like it.

Fast-forward two decades. It’s the late 1990s/early 2000s. That generation of
children and young adults who’d loved STAR WARS during the late 1970s/early
1980s are nearly twenty years older (and more sophisticated), and have high
expectations for the prequels. After all, the STAR WARS movies were so magical when they were younger, so it’s reasonable to expect that the prequels would be magical all over again, right?

WRONG.

Filmmaking has come a long way since the original STAR WARS TRILOGY was
made. In the years since, we’ve had SUPERMAN, E.T., GHOSTBUSTERS, BATMAN, PREDATOR, ALIENS, the TERMINATOR movies, JURASSIC PARK, THE FIFTH ELEMENT, MEN IN BLACK, THE MATRIX, MINORITY REPORT . . . you name it. What made STAR WARS cutting edge during the late 1970s and early 1980s has been improved upon a hundred times over since those days. George Lucas has upgraded the SFX for EPISODES I & II to reflect those developments (indeed, one of the reasons he waited so long to follow up the original STAR WARS series was because he was developing the filmmaking technology to make the newer films possible), but to stay true to the flavor of the original movies, he couldn’t stray too far from the old concepts. A generation (the generation that came of age in the late 1980s and 1990s, who had experienced STAR WARS only as video fare until EPISODE I’s release) that has grown up on THE TERMINATOR, MEN IN BLACK and THE MATRIX is definitely going to find STAR WARS quaint: it’s a relic of an earlier, less sophisticated time.

As for the old-school STAR WARS fans who complain that EPISODES I and II aren’t as good as EPISODES IV-VI, I believe that many of them are looking at
the older STAR WARS movies through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia. I recently rewatched the old STAR WARS movies, and while I still enjoy them, I
must admit that they are dated . . . not just in terms of SFX, but in overall
concept. Upon further reflection, I’ve found that EPISODES IV-VI are about on
the same level as movies as EPISODES I and II. In other words, the STAR
WARS movies are as good as they’ve ever been, if you look at the objectively and not inflate the value of the original trilogy and thus, unfairly dismiss the value of the newer movies. The generation that grew up on the original STAR WARS trilogy has grown more sophisticated and yes, more cynical since the time of 1977-1983. They were children and very young adults when the first STAR WARS trilogy was released, and their virgin minds were ready to impressed by what was then the novel experience of a STAR WARS movie. The bottom line, however, is that no matter how wonderful the original STAR WARS movies were, they were just movies. Nostalgia has made these older fans expect the new STAR WARS movies to be the cinematographic version of the Second Coming. When the new STAR WARS movies are released and appear to be what they’ve always been (just movies, albeit very entertaining and imaginative movies), they feel disappointed.

I’ve rambled for a bit here, but the bottom line is this: STAR WARS today is as
good as it’s always been, so long as you don’t have an unreasonable expectation that the newer movies can make you a kid again. All the flaws that people charge EPISODE I and II with having were there in EPISODES IV-VI as well; nostalgia just blinds them to those flaws. If you watch all five completed STAR WARS movies in a row, you’ll notice a consistency to their strengths and weaknesses.

theforce.net

#115

Opinion

#116

Saying that that´s an extremelly biased opinion would be an understatement. :rolleyes:

If AOTC is a"brilliant piece of filmmaking", I wonder how that scale of values would rate REALLY “brilliant pieces of filmmaking”.

So, the only thing wrong are “a very few ropey lines of dialogue that take only a few seconds”, eh?

I wonder how the excruciatingly painfull bidimentional cardboard cut-out acting got past THAT review unscathed. :slight_smile:

Or the constant In-Your-Face “Look, Ma, this is CG too!” approach present twelve in every two frames.

Or the really awfull scenne transitions, the obvious plasticity of the whole experience, the really reh-tahded 2 years old humour like the torturing C-3PO gags, the “plot” my downstairs neighbour´s 12 years old could think of in his way to the school bus or… or… or…

You wanna know what´s THE sole interesting spot in this whole plainwreck?
I tell you what´s THE sole interesting spot in this whole plainwreck:
the scenne when baby Bobba grabs the helmet of his daddy.

It last only two frames at best but It´s the ONLY moment where you can spot some sort of emotion in the whole experience.

And that was probably the director of photography´s idea. :rolleyes:

#117

any reason you resurrected this thread to speak to yourself?

talk about whine.

Didn’t you start a thread on why ppl like it, go post there :slight_smile: I am not subscribed to that one.

#118

Although there is some flat acting…‘Attack of the Clones’ was a vast improvement over ‘Phantom Menace’.
It’s my personal favourite for the beginning shot of the sentorial Craft - it looks just like the main baddie from ‘19XX - The War Against Destiny’.
It also sparked my lust for making my own films!
I would rather watch Ep2 than the original films…um, although I’m not sure about ‘Empire Strikes Back’! That was my personal favourite before Ep2…

#119

You know there´s more to movies than eyecandy, don´t you?

That´s why we call them “movies” instead of “commercials”.

#120

Some folks are talking as if the original SW films were masterpieces. I don’t think they were very good. And they weren’t even Sci-Fi films, they were westerns with different costumes. Poor westerns.

That’s why the new ones are so vacuous and incoherent : the originals never had enough mileage to be stretched so thin.

Lucas has lost the plot and there was never much plot to lose in the first place.

#121

Just FYI:
Check out today’s (Jan 16) issue of USA Today’s Life section.
Title: Fantasy Wars
“‘Rings’ trilogy is outdueling ‘Star Wars’ as lord of the epics”
Some interesting points.
They show the main characters side by side with their counterparts from the other movie:
Viggo Mortensen - Harrison Ford (2 men who does not want to embrace their destiny but they do later to help the cause)
Liv Tyler - Carrie Fisher (elf ears on ears and hair buns on ears)
Christopher Lee - Christopher Lee (yeah, he’s so bad a** that he can be in both trilogies - LOL!)
Elijah Wood - Hayden Christensen (both trying to resist turning to the dark ways)

You can get USA Today at any news stand.

#122

I haven’t read quite every post on this thread but I add a couple of opinions:

  1. the tech doesn’t look the same - natural Han solos gun was real old gun with some plastics added and darth vaders console was a box with 3 leds. So it is understandable that it looks more advanced now. Wire frame animation was high tech in 70’s but no more…

  2. The love scenes were horrifying - absolutely

  3. I have it when everything has to be explained and no thinking is left to the viewer. EP I was much worse in this though with nice logic for jedi powers etc. There was no single surprise in EP I and most of the things were said several times.

  4. and then to the thing that annoys me most. Why the star wars universe is like ours but not quite. Apart from the romance the most annoying things were the straight translations from our worls.

  • I felt sick seeing the Senator (of the whole system) packing her Samsonite. How Star Wars is that?
  • the libarary doesn’t have bookshelves with books but lights that remind us books
  • the 50’s rock n roll cafe. Comoon how exotic and “a galaxy far far away” is that?

The strong point in 70’s of the SW was that it showed a wholy new world with its rules. Now they have our world but except that busses and cars fly, some bartender isn’t fat ugly man but fat ugly alien.
I am not sure if my point is getting through but there was no exotics in those things.

I think that there is some missconcept in the whole film world that people are not able to think and that they want to feel familiar with everything. That doesn’t leave too much left.

for sure still Lucas is pulling too many ropes. I think he must be good at something but his problem seems to be that he thinks that he is great at everything. I suppose EP I teached him something (it was such a bad film in so many ways)

And finally:

EP II had number of great designs and eye candy, it rolled on much better than epI. I just feel that it was made too much into high school concept.

And yes the acting sucked in the old ones (Luke: “Man, I’ll never get out of this place”, was one of the most ridiculous comments) But there was atmosphere. The darth vader is in my opinion still not easily macthed in authority.

heikki

#123

Y’know, I’m going to get publicly flogged for saying this, but I’ve liked each of the Star Wars prequels.

The thing that made me not like them was critical and jaded people constantly tearing the movies apart and exposing their flaws.

#124

So, basically, you´re blaming other people for teaching you why a bad movie was bad?

#125

Uhh…no. I’m perfectly aware of the movie’s faults. I went into the movie knowing full well what they would be. What I said is that I’m sick of hearing about them. I’ve studied writing and story structure (including Campbell’s Hero’s Journey) since I was a kid and I know a “bad story” when I see one. And let me tell you this, NONE of the Star Wars movies have had GREAT stories. Empire came close. But the point is that it’s popular to put down Star Wars and any who might have any sort of liking toward it. It’s funny how many people state they hate the movies just so they can take the popular stance in the argument. I’m simply tired of hearing about all of the movie’s faults. I realize everyone is free to express their opinion though…so I just figured I’d express mine.

#126

Originally posted by dragonfollower
Uhh…no. I’m perfectly aware of the movie’s faults. I went into the movie knowing full well what they would be. What I said is that I’m sick of hearing about them.

And yet your reading a topic entitled … what a bad movie and repeat repling here because?

I think in the literary world they call this a non sequitur.

#127

My question is this. How do people who hate SW or say its a bad movie know its a bad movie unless they in fact went to see it.

Movies I know that are bad I dont dare go see I know I wont like.

Second: I’m willing to bet those that disliked AOTC, some how by accident go see Esp III in 2005. Huh ?

this I bet:)

:beer:

#128

I’ve studied writing and story structure (including Campbell’s Hero’s Journey) since I was a kid and I know a “bad story” when I see one. And let me tell you this, NONE of the Star Wars movies have had GREAT stories. Empire came close.

I think Campbell would disagree with you - he himself used Star Wars as an example of a great story, using his monomyth theory… :shrug:

#129

My question is this. How do people who hate SW or say its a bad movie know its a bad movie unless they in fact went to see it.

I don´t know about the others, but I don´t “hate” Star Wars. In fact , I love Star Wars!

That´s why I´m so disapointed with those @*&@X# prequels!!:annoyed:

#130

Originally posted by macqdor
My question is this. How do people who hate SW or say its a bad movie know its a bad movie unless they in fact went to see it.

  1. I have yet to hear of someone who claims to have disliked AOTC who turns out didn´t even go see the wreck.

  2. About the popularity thing on bashing SW, I don´t know about the others, but personally, I started throwing tomatoes right the moment I left the theatre, when all my friends were still dazzled by the prettey-prettey SFX to acknowledge the disaster they had just witnessed (even caught a few Boos! that were rectified as soon as the said dazzling effect passed).

I don´t follow trends.

  1. I hear a lot of people comparing the prequels to the sequels and saying… “- But they´re the same exact thing”.
    Well, they weren´t!
    You see, ALL SW movies aren´t really that flabbergasting, in terms of story or acting (Mark Hammill is particularly Plan-9-From-Outer-Space-worthy).
    But!
    The first 3 DID however pack the entertaining bit that made so many people happy;
    Han Solo bashing on 3PO was memorable.
    Chewie using his…personality to win chess-like games was funny.

These… things we have now lost even that.
Obi-Wan is not funny, Qui-Gonis not funny.
C-3PO is TERRIBLY unfunny.
And Jar-Jar is… well, I´m sure, soon to become a new category in the dictionaries under “Things that can jumpstart a devastating outburst of pure rage”.

Like I said before, I´m not sure they even classify as movies per se.
They´re basically a HUGE ILM commercial showing the (admirable) company CG talent.
And that´s all.

#131
  1. I hear a lot of people comparing the prequels to the sequels and saying… “- But they´re the same exact thing”.

Well, they weren´t!

You see, ALL SW movies aren´t really that flabbergasting, in terms of story or acting (Mark Hammill is particularly Plan-9-From-Outer-Space-worthy).

But!

The first 3 DID however pack the entertaining bit that made so many people happy; Han Solo bashing on 3PO was memorable. Chewie using his…personality to win chess-like games was funny.

Yeah, dude…I guess you do have a point there. Too bad though. I personally wonder about Lucas…I mean, how’d he lose whatever talent he had? Despite what people say he DID write ANH. He had two other people punch up the dialogue between Han and Leia though. He also collaborated on the script on Empire and even more so on Jedi. So there was talent there. Maybe he just got greedy with these new ones and forgot that collaboration often yields better results than trying to juggle all the balls yourself.

#132

Originally posted by macqdor
[B]My question is this. How do people who hate SW or say its a bad movie know its a bad movie unless they in fact went to see it.

Movies I know that are bad I dont dare go see I know I wont like.

Second: I’m willing to bet those that disliked AOTC, some how by accident go see Esp III in 2005. Huh ?

this I bet:)

:beer: [/B]

Um, lets see… no. I went to see the first one and the second one, with no expectation on either, since I avoided the hype machine that is GL and co.

Judged it on its own meritus, and they both pretty much suckorz.

I see all movies, good or bad, cause, believe it or not, someone else’s BS opinion is not mine own.

And why wouldn’t we go to see the last one? AOTC does not equate to the third installment (6th installment). How does that follow? Just because his first two are turds may not mean the last will be. That is a pretty retarded question you posted.