So you wanna be an animator huh?

#28

Hi Brian,

I know large VFX firms have recruiting agents and head hunters but are there reputable agents who find homes for cg artists in growing start-up studios? (Kind of like a Rita Sue Segal for modelers and animators.)

Also, and forgive me if this is taboo, but it would be helpful to gauge what the going rate is for entry-level modelers and animators. I found some information on the “Animation Guild Local 839”. It covers LA pretty well but are you aware of a more general directory?

Can you recommend any nationwide or global guilds or unions for CG artists? The only one I could find is the Graphic Artists’ Guild but this is really for graphic designers. (A lot of studios don’t seem to offer health plans and benefits but guilds do.)

Will joining these organizations help independent artists break into the industry?

Thanks.

#29

Harry,

Sure, there are agencies out there to place freelancers in small shops. We search for artists that way. A google search came up with this place.

http://www.digitalartistmanagement.com/

As for unions, well let’s see. I’m not apart of one, but I used to be up at ILM. That was IATSE LOCAL 16 if I remember correctly. Mainly Lucasfilm employees. I’d have to do some research on any others. I know there are a couple of traditional guilds for cel animators…

Will it help you get a job? Depends on who you ask. There’s pluses and minuses to being in a union. I’d rather not get into political banter there. As for salaries, I’m not too familiar for modelers, specifically. I could only help you with previs rates… and I’d rather not post those here.

#30

viz ok i maybe stupid (IQ of 150 apparently though my major dislexic mind blur’s the boundaries) but movies are as good as the team that worked on them. think that their making a dark cyristel 2 but this time cgi is being introduced as background work, yet there keeping the pupet look. this with their skills could beomce the a fx film even though their mixing techonolgeis. (cgi is i think now over used in film)
i like threads about how can an user do this with out a plug-in, i don’t think that it is taking profit away form 3rd parties but more making the TV generation think for them selfs. ok my rant is over btw i’m a messed up tv gen kid/man

#31

I agree that CGI tends to take too much precidence in movies nowadays. I think we’re seeing an increase in films that are embracing other looks and styles and this is a good thing. Its also why I think 2D is not dead… it will just take a little time before someone “rediscovers” it again and it becomes popular in a retro kind of way.

What I would like to explore is methods to make CGI look like other mediums. Wallace and Grommit is a good example of this. In the Curse of the Were Rabbit, the BVS6000 vacuum system with all the floating bunnies was CGI but it was pretty convincing as a replacement for plasticine.

#32

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

It’s like Dale Chihuly making a chandelier out of Lexan! Part of the beauty of Wallace and Grommit, IMO, is Nick Park’s painstaking but beautiful attention to the art of claymation.

It’s just one more step removed from the purity of a vision – “We’ll make our vision with claymation. . . No wait! We’ll make a CG version of claymation based on our original idea!”

It’s just the “let something be what it is” factor. Having CG fake another type of traditional animation is right up there with fake convertible rag tops on Cadillacs, or linoleum that tries to look like Italian marble.

Now, don’t get me wrong, using CG VFX to get complicated shots or create stunts that would otherwise be impossible or extremely dangerous is one thing – I’m all for that – but when you start disguising one medium with another you lose the honesty in your creation. Imagine if, after receiving the Academy Award for best animated short, Chris Landreth confessed that he used mocap and rotoscoped live footage for 80% of “Ryan” along with slightly modified real footage of St. Laurent in Montreal. Would you still think it was worthy of that award?

My point is that when we start separating the medium from the message, we start pulling away from the intensity and purity of the original idea. It would be a simulation of itself – a watered-down, distilled fraction of the intended experience. I’m sure Marshall McLuhan would agree.

As I’m sure all of you do too. :slight_smile:

#33

Frankly, when I started to work in an animation studio, I was struck by the “if it works, it works”-attitude. In art-school, there was always this drive to keep things “pure”. The reality is that Nick Park was making a film, not a bunch of individual animations. If it suits the film, then it’s good. Purity of every single element on its own doesn’t mean anything, it’s the whole that counts.

#34

Hi Manuel,

I can see your point of view. For VFX, I’m right with you. For 95% of live action films that need CG VFX I say lie, cheat, steal, do whatever you have to to get the shot done on time, on budget and with the best possible quality. But that’s what people expect in a live action feature.

But I’m talking about animation as an art form and with art, the ends do not justify the means. When you, as a movie-goer, see a Nick Park film, you have a certain expectation that you’re going to witness some great claymation. The story, I’m sure, will be good but people also see his films in order to appreciate his mastery over the medium – the “how the #*!@ did he do THAT with clay” factor. Once you start disguising the traditional, painstaking art of claymation with CG animation, you betray the public’s trust in that art form.

It’s the same reason we’re not alowed to post photographs, claiming them to be CG art, in the gallery. Sure, a lot of times it would be easier to just go outside and take a photograph, but what blows people away is the tremendous effort it takes to make a CG model look real. We can appreciate the artist’s mastery of the medium.

That’s the problem I have with this – it’s dishonest. Imagine watching a Jackie Chan film and then later finding out that all his stunts were performed by digital stunt doubles. Wouldn’t you feel betrayed? People don’t go to see Jackie Chan films for the story. They go to witness his expert choreography and comedic timing, mastery of martial arts and his tremendous courage in performing his own death-defying stunts.

That’s what I mean when I say, “The ends don’t justify the means.”

#35

The purist vs the progressive. Happens in every art form. Everyone has their opinions…

And now back to the show…

So you wanna be an animator huh?

#36

Hi Brian,

As you know, I’m looking to find work as a modeler and texture artist in an animation studio. And I’ve been looking through the job boards and looking at some fantastic demo reels here in the Animation Gallery, trying to get a feel for how to go about structuring my new modeling reel.

I noticed that the end card of most of the reels include a list of the programs the artist used (usually Maya, 3DSMax and Zbrush). It seems that the most of the openings on the job boards require proficiency in particular programs (again, usually Maya, 3DSMax or Zbrush).

Should I be concerned about this? I’m learning Maya with the PLE and I’m coming up to speed quickly. I can’t imagine it would take long to come up to speed on a different package. All 3D packages these days have dope sheets, curve editors, shading palettes, morph editors, etc. Is this a big deal or am I too concerned with this?

#37

Hey Harry,

Good question. The answer, I believe, goes a little like this:

The larger and more corporate an animation studio is, the more specialized their toolset becomes. However, the general rule of thumb is most studios have a core package that they centralize around. At ILM, it’s Softimage for animation and Maya for modeling and particle work. At Digital Domain, its Maya and Houdini for film work and Lightwave for broadcast. At Sony its mostly Maya. Modelers, fortunately, have a little more leeway in this area because they are providing a product. Data transfer tools makes providing the product even easier. At my company, we don’t care what you model in, as long as it can get into our animation packages easily. However, larger studios are going to be a bit more difficult in this area mainly due to pipeline and support issues. If you’re modeling in an obsecure pacakge, IT won’t come to your rescue when you can’t get something accomplished. Therefore, larger studios tend to put the kabosh on using software other than what’s authorized.

As a freelancer, I’d say you should feel free to model in whatever package suites your fancy. Again, its mainly because you’re prodiving a product…a model. Animators and effects artists aren’t so lucky. FBX can help the situation, but its not a complete solution.

If you’re learning Maya, you’ll be in good shape. Its modeling tools are robust and sophisticated. Transferring those skills over to another package shouldn’t be difficult, however, once you get into the groove of working in a certain package, you can expect a couple of weeks of downtime during your relearning phase to the other package. This may be something the hiring company does not want to hear.

#38

Hey Brain,

    First off, thank you for creating this thread!  

    I recently graduated from school and have secured a job at a small video game studio as both an animator and concept artist.  I’m currently performing both duties, but mainly as a concept artist.  

            I kind of hit a crossroads and would like an outside opinion on my portfolio. 

[www.dmjstudios.com](http://www.dmjstudios.com/)

    My main question is, am I stronger as a concept artist or animator?
#39

Davey,

Ok… I rarely say this, but I’d say you have potential in both fields. Your concept work looks a little more refined than your animation capabilities, however, you’re green. Its too soon to judge which path/road you should take. In your particular case, I’d say you’re gonna have to do a little soul searching to determine which makes you more happy. Perhaps I can shed a little light from a different direction.

Conceptual Artists:

  • More difficult to break into.
  • Greater pay, but generally less work (at least in the film industry).
  • Works in the preproduction phase which means more fluidity.
  • Has a greater influence on the design elements of the film.
  • Works for shorter periods of time on a project. Mutiple projects per year.
  • Is less technical.
  • Personality of artist is less dependant on others.
  • Can become limited due to your style. (Meaning your style can dictate your jobs).
  • Generally a broader field.
  • Must be willing to surrender ideas easily. Can not cling too tightly to a single idea.

Animator:

  • More jobs. If you’re good, you’ll have work for life.
  • Only has regional control over one thing. Animation.
  • Generally more technical.
  • Personality of artist is typically more forward, people oriented but somewhat obsessive.
  • Is more technical.
  • Generally a more narrow field.
  • Requires considerable patience and the ability to be constantly jockied. (Supervisor over your shoulder and your work is heavily critiqued.)
  • Has the advantage of seeing work directly on screen.
  • Works for longer periods of time on a single project. Fewer projects per year.

Help any?

#40

Brain,

Thanks for the kind words! I really appreciate you taking the time to look over my portfolio. I think your right about doing a little soul searching and finding out which position would better suit me in the long run.

Again, Thanks for your help!

#41

Maybe this needs a new thread… but could the discussion be expanded to, ‘So you wanna be a cg artist?’ Or, more specifically, branch into areas of how broad this industry might be? Or, getting work in freelance?

I think often people think of landing the big job at ILM or Dreamworks, but I’ve always been curious how much work outside of this realm there is. I would figure it would be quite a lot.

There are the obvious things, like work for print, such as magazines, books, etc. There is architectural work, or visualization for court cases. Pre-viz for product development and title work for TV and commercials. The list probably goes on and on.

I’ve enjoyed working as part of an industrial design team in the past, doing pre-viz of product for architecture and mechanical equipment. I also worked briefly for an ad firm, doing primarily product pre-viz for retail settings, and a bit of architectural as well.

I’m curious what tips folks have for starting a small firm in this way, or getting into the smaller shops that cater to this market. Personally, I’m headed other directions in my career… but still might like to do a bit of 3D on the side… at least enough to support the costs of my cg habit.

-Steve

#42

I’m fine with the idea of expanding the questions to something beyond animation. My expertise is in the entertainment industry and film, but I’m still pretty familiar with print and broadcast design fields. Did that for years too. For those things I can’t answer, I’m fine with others chiming in to help.

#43

Cool… thanks Brian.

I don’t have a particular question right at the moment, but more wanted to bring up the idea. I kind of look at working at ILM a bit like being a rock star. There are all sorts of musicians in the world, some trying to be a star, some not… but only a certain number of folks will really end up doing that. But, that doesn’t mean there isn’t a LOT of work for musicians, even if most of the press is focused on the stars.

I’d guess that a majority of the EI licenses are in use by folks doing all this other type of work. It would be cool if folks who do that kind of work would be willing to share some tips as well about that aspect of the 3D industry.

I have always worked more internally where I was an employee or partner in a bigger project, so I don’t even have a clue what I’d charge if I were freelance. How would I price projects… by the project, or by the hour? I’d probably contact smaller architectural firms, law firms, product design and ad firms, and see if they would want to partner with projects if the do not already have internal folks who do these things.

Right now, I’m just too busy to even think much more about it. Maybe in about a year after I’m done with school, I’ll try to start some side work in this way. But, I think such a discussion would benefit a lot of the EI users, or users looking into EI.

Anyone want to share tips?

One question to relate it back to the current discussion… Would being a freelancer for a while (considering a freelancer needs to be more well rounded than specialized) make it harder to break into places like ILM? I suppose one would really have to pick a particular strength out and develop a reel based on it. (I’m not at all headed this way… just more of a ‘what if’ question.)

-Steve

#44

Hi Steve,

I started out as an industrial designer too. In “The Before Time”, in “The Long, Long Ago”, in an age we called “The Late Twentieth Century” I worked at a consulatancy for about five years doing product design but then the direction of the company changed to doing more industrial illustration and animation using Alias Studio and Power Animator (remember those programs?) running on two SGI Indigo 2 Extremes. And I fell I love with 3D modeling.

Then something fantastic happened – Macs and PCs got more powerful and a lot more affordable. And the 3D software that ran on them did too. I decided to go back to design school and freelance. I bought a G3, EIAS and Rhino running under Virtual PC and was able to crank out more quality work with that, in a much shorter time, than using the SGIs and Alias in the office. My freelancing ramped up and I got to work on lots of cool projects. For six years this was my main bread and butter. Because I took on clients in different fields (design firms, ad agencies, manufacturers and multimedia groups) I branched out doing Flash and interactive QuickTime. As I did, I forgot how much I enjoyed 3D modeling. Now, I’m trying to focus just on that. As Brian mentioned earlier in this thread, I’ve hit a plateau. There’s only so far you can go on your own as a freelancer (at least for me).

Freelancing has its joys, no doubt. But it can also hold you back in some very important ways. Working on my own, I spent more time trying to get work, writing proposals and negotiating contracts than I did doing what I loved – 3D modeling. Life is short. If you can spend your time doing what you love around other talented people, helping each other reach that next level, well. . . .that’s what I’m searching for now.

That said, you can make some serious money as a freelancer. 3D for print is one of the most unrecognized yet potentially the most profitable avenue for any CG freelancer. Also, 3D animations for tradeshows are getting to be more and more common place. There’s lots of room for talent to thrive. For pricing you might want to check the Graphic Artists’ Guild Pricing and Ethical Guidelines book. It’s mainly geared toward graphic designers but does a pretty good job pricing artwork in a variety of industries. It also has ready-made contracts in the back. Whatever you decide to charge as a base, make sure to multipy your fee by about 1.5 to cover your equipment costs, software upgrades and travel expenses (all this can be written off your taxes too!). And in my experience, if you negotiate “net 30 plus 7” terms, ALWAYS charge interest on late payments. I had one clent who took nearly a year (yes, a year) to make the final payment on our contract. I could have made three times as much money on that one job if I had charged interest! Well, you live and learn, right? :slight_smile:

I hope this helps.

#45

Thanks for the tips! I did freelance IS/IT work for a number of years, both with a partner who did much of the business side, on my own, and with a firm that did my billing / accounting for me. Yes… know all about contracts. I’ve had the Jerry Maguire experience with ‘my word is solid oak’ or whatever that phrase was. :eek:

I’ll have to pick up a copy of that book when I get to that point. Right now, I work full time, and am technically a full time student as well… so no time for projects on the side really. But, after school, I might very well try to actually make some money on my hobby. :slight_smile:

-Steve

#46

Steve – My Pleasure. Just sharing my design field take on the 3D stuff.

Brian – I hope I didn’t do too much “chiming in”. This is your thread and you’re clearly the person to talk to about career advice in the animation industry. :bowdown:

The advice you’ve already given me has been invaluable. Thanks!

#47

No worries… really. It should be an open discussion. I’ve wanted to make some more comments, but I’ve been really swamped at work… I promise a response soon.